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  1. #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    The concept of MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) from the Cold War would also apply for Iran: If they hit Israel, Teheran would be gone, too. "I hope the Russians love their children, too", as Sting put it, also works for Iranians, I'm sure.

    What's a nuclear bomb good for anyway, when retaliation is certain?
    I don't think MAD works here. With the USSR and the US (or NATO if you will,) you had rational people in power. Moscow was aware that nuclear war, even a limited scale war would be detrimental, as was the West.

    I don't see this with Fundamentalist Islamists. These are afterall, people who'll strap explosives on their backs and take their own lives in hopes of martyrdom, and 72 virgins. This is not rational. I'm sure the Mullahs of Iran would feel Allah will take care of them, and reward them greatly for taking out Isreal.

    Different mentality, do you not agree?
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  2. #82  
    Sanctions: They have NEVER worked on their own. They weren't meant to and they need to be looked at as a tool in the diplomatic kitbag, not the panacea. They are like hot tea with honey for a sore throat. It helps so you should start there, but it isn't a cure-all by itself.

    Military action: I don't think US bombing would be the best message to send (I know, no one is saying this...). However, the action need not be a baseball bat message (e.g. B-52 strike) when a hyperdermic needle (e.g. small unit surgical strikes) could do the trick. I predict that Mossad will be set loose with the US Gov't provided plausible deniability. All that needs to happen is for the weapons capability to be destroyed. Iran will blame Israel. The world will know that Israel did it. Israel can deny responsibility if they'd like. The US can claim they weren't controlling this.

    Sure, this is simply stated but may be a viable alternative.

    - Sanctions
    - World message "Don't be a nuke power. There are other ways to join the community."
    - Several small, accurate "accidents"
    - World message "We're still interested in working with you."
    - Carrot in public, small sticks hidden from view
    Recognizing that I volunteered...
  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    I don't think MAD works here. With the USSR and the US (or NATO if you will,) you had rational people in power. Moscow was aware that nuclear war, even a limited scale war would be detrimental, as was the West.

    I don't see this with Fundamentalist Islamists. These are afterall, people who'll strap explosives on their backs and take their own lives in hopes of martyrdom, and 72 virgins. This is not rational. I'm sure the Mullahs of Iran would feel Allah will take care of them, and reward them greatly for taking out Isreal.

    Different mentality, do you not agree?
    This is absolutely true. Mutually assured destruction only works if people are afraid to die, afraid to lose their loved ones and their way of life. We knew, and the Soviets knew, that a nuclear war would set the world back 100 or more years, for the 25% of the world's population "lucky" enough to survive. When you're dealing with people who feel that they are doing Allah's work by "bringing about the destruction of the Zionists and their allies", and will be rewarded in Paradise, they have no fear of MAD.

    Anyone who straps C4 to their chests and walks into hotels, restaurants, malls, schools, hospitals, etc needs to be confronted in a different manner.

    This guy is a religious zealot. He believes that the return of the Hidden Imam is near, and if destroying Israel will bring the world closer to that prophecy, then he's all for it. This guy will make North Korea look fairly stable.
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  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    I don't think MAD works here. With the USSR and the US (or NATO if you will,) you had rational people in power. Moscow was aware that nuclear war, even a limited scale war would be detrimental, as was the West.

    I don't see this with Fundamentalist Islamists. These are afterall, people who'll strap explosives on their backs and take their own lives in hopes of martyrdom, and 72 virgins. This is not rational. I'm sure the Mullahs of Iran would feel Allah will take care of them, and reward them greatly for taking out Isreal.

    Different mentality, do you not agree?
    I'm not sure Achmadinejad did anything irrational so far, as pointed out in the
    article quoted by gfunkmagic.

    Besides, the belief in 72 virgins in heaven for martyrs is not more irrational than the belief that all animal species of this world spent several months on a wooden boat a few thousand years ago.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Besides, the belief in 72 virgins in heaven for martyrs is not more irrational than the belief that all animal species of this world spent several months on a wooden boat a few thousand years ago.
    It is because it completely goes against the notion that Islam is a "religion of peace".
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  6. #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    This guy is a religious zealot. He believes that the return of the Hidden Imam is near, and if destroying Israel will bring the world closer to that prophecy, then he's all for it.
    Interestingly, a lot of religious zealots in your country think a greater Israel will do the trick, and therefore support Israel taking more land in the West Bank and oppressing the Palestinians no matter what, or oppose Israel giving back the Gaza strip. Ah, those religious zealots...
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskanDad
    Sanctions: They have NEVER worked on their own. They weren't meant to and they need to be looked at as a tool in the diplomatic kitbag, not the panacea. They are like hot tea with honey for a sore throat. It helps so you should start there, but it isn't a cure-all by itself.

    Military action: I don't think US bombing would be the best message to send (I know, no one is saying this...). However, the action need not be a baseball bat message (e.g. B-52 strike) when a hyperdermic needle (e.g. small unit surgical strikes) could do the trick. I predict that Mossad will be set loose with the US Gov't provided plausible deniability. All that needs to happen is for the weapons capability to be destroyed. Iran will blame Israel. The world will know that Israel did it. Israel can deny responsibility if they'd like. The US can claim they weren't controlling this.

    Sure, this is simply stated but may be a viable alternative.

    - Sanctions
    - World message "Don't be a nuke power. There are other ways to join the community."
    - Several small, accurate "accidents"
    - World message "We're still interested in working with you."
    - Carrot in public, small sticks hidden from view
    Sounds good, but I don't think Israel or anybody else could cause significant damage without it becoming clear where it came from.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Interestingly, a lot of religious zealots in your country think a greater Israel will do the trick, and therefore support Israel taking more land in the West Bank and oppressing the Palestinians no matter what, or oppose Israel giving back the Gaza strip. Ah, those religious zealots...
    Will do what trick?
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  9. #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    Will do what trick?
    The coming of the messiah (first or second, depends on who is counting), followed by the end of the world, and those who believed the right thing or belong to the right people going to heaven, the rest going to hell.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  10.    #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Interestingly, a lot of religious zealots in your country think a greater Israel will do the trick, and therefore support Israel taking more land in the West Bank and oppressing the Palestinians no matter what, or oppose Israel giving back the Gaza strip. Ah, those religious zealots...
    Why the gratuituous America bashing? Do some religious nut live in the US - of course. Do they run the country - of course not. If you wish to bash the US, please do me the favor of taking it to a different thread. That is unless you wish to make the case that our leadership is just as fanatical as the Iranian mullahs. If so, you're welcome to continue making a fool of yourself.
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    #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    I'm not sure Achmadinejad did anything irrational so far, as pointed out in the
    article quoted by gfunkmagic.

    Besides, the belief in 72 virgins in heaven for martyrs is not more irrational than the belief that all animal species of this world spent several months on a wooden boat a few thousand years ago.
    Yeah, I hate it when those damn penquins strap explosives on their wings just get a better seat on the ark.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  12. #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    That is unless you wish to make the case that our leadership is just as fanatical as the Iranian mullahs. If so, you're welcome to continue making a fool of yourself.
    That is the typical Clulup post, so expect a "Bush is a religious zealot" retort any time now.
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  13.    #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Besides, the belief in 72 virgins in heaven for martyrs is not more irrational than the belief that all animal species of this world spent several months on a wooden boat a few thousand years ago.
    Perhaps,perhaps not. The consequences of holding either one of those two beliefs are quite different, no?
    Current: iPhone 3G
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  14. #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    The coming of the messiah (first or second, depends on who is counting), followed by the end of the world, and those who believed the right thing or belong to the right people going to heaven, the rest going to hell.
    There are those of us who know better than to take the Bible (or the Koran) too literally.
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  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    I'm not sure Achmadinejad did anything irrational so far, as pointed out in the
    article quoted by gfunkmagic.
    He hasn't done anything, so far (unless you believe his involvement in the US Embassy take over nearly 30 years ago. But even if that's true, since it was the US Embassy, I'm sure you'll give him a pass...) However his rhetoric is disturbing. It was his victory speech in which he said

    “Thanks to the blood of the martyrs, a new Islamic revolution has arisen and the Islamic revolution of 1384 [the current Iranian year] will, if God wills, cut off the roots of injustice in the world,” he said. “The wave of the Islamic revolution will soon reach the entire world.”
    Since you seem to be on his side, what does "cut off the roots" entail? And what does this revolution reaching the entire world mean? I'm sure it's all innocent to you, perhaps he's going to start walking barefoot out into the desert, becoming a messenger of peace?

    Besides, the belief in 72 virgins in heaven for martyrs is not more irrational than the belief that all animal species of this world spent several months on a wooden boat a few thousand years ago.
    I have no idea what the Hell this means, so I won't respond. I'm not aware of any groups blowing themselves up in the name of Noah.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

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  16. #96  
    This is all I need to know about your viewpoint.

    Until Muslims worldwide revolt and prove otherwise, Islam is the religion of murder.

    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    I'm not sure Achmadinejad did anything irrational so far...
  17. #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    I'm not sure Achmadinejad did anything irrational so far, as pointed out in the
    article quoted by gfunkmagic.
    I'd say that antagonizing a nuclear power (Israel) with threats of holocaust isn't particularly rational.
  18. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Why the gratuituous America bashing? Do some religious nut live in the US - of course. Do they run the country - of course not. If you wish to bash the US, please do me the favor of taking it to a different thread. That is unless you wish to make the case that our leadership is just as fanatical as the Iranian mullahs. If so, you're welcome to continue making a fool of yourself.
    My, my, my, easy... by religious zealot I wasn't referring to Bush - as you should be able to tell, because Bush did not oppose, but support Israel giving back the Gaza strip to the Palestinians.

    I meant people like Pat Robertson and the like, people who suggest god smote Sharon because of Gaza...
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  19. #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Yeah, I hate it when those damn penquins strap explosives on their wings just get a better seat on the ark.
    Are you referring to that sad incident which caused the death of the two poor unicorns?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  20. #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Since you seem to be on his side, what does "cut off the roots" entail?
    What makes you think I am on his side? I am not, in no way, and never said so.

    I only said he hasn't acted irrationally so far (or suicidal):
    irrational: not rational: as a (1) : not endowed with reason or understanding (2) : lacking usual or normal mental clarity or coherence b : not governed by or according to reason.

    If his goal is to provoke the West in order to cause a reaction which would unite his people against the West, his anti-holocaust rhetoric makes sense, it is a rational means towards that goal. That does not mean he actually believes the holocaust did not take place.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
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