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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Where do you draw the line? Shall the gov't have a direct line to your hard drive to cut down on sneak & peek costs??
    In this example, which seems to have happened due to multiple criteria being met in potentially common terrorist planning activities to warrant an investigation, does not seem like a police state situation.

    4 people here have asked how you would handle it. I am open to ideas, but you haven't shared any yet.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    An example of a police state would be Saddam Hussein's Iraq, which we toppled. We are not a police state. A resonable person can tell the difference.
    Sorry, sneak and peeks are most certainly a police state.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    In this example, which seems to have happened due to multiple criteria being met in potentially common terrorist planning activities to warrant an investigation, does not seem like a police state situation.

    4 people here have asked how you would handle it. I am open to ideas, but you haven't shared any yet.
    I would start by letting the more intrusive aspects of the Patriot Act sunset. That's why they had a sunset clause attached to them to begin with.

    This is includes coming into my home without my knowledge and monitoring what books I read at the library.
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    #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    I would start by letting the more intrusive aspects of the Patriot Act sunset. That's why they had a sunset clause attached to them to begin with.

    This is includes coming into my home without my knowledge and monitoring what books I read at the library.
    If it is a public library funded by taxpayer dollars, it is available for public knowledge. Just like most records at your courthouse. Public records consist of a vast array of documents to include deeds, titles, marriage certificates and death certificates. Those are all legal for the feds or even oridnary citizen me to review.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Sorry, sneak and peeks are most certainly a police state.
    Do you even know what it is?

    A "sneak and peek" warrant allows the authorities to search without notifying the target at the time of the search. The warrant still must be issued by a magistrate based on a show of probable cause. The target does need to be notified later, however. The reason is so that a terrorist who is a member of a network would not be able to alert the otther members of the cell.

    You think this is how Saddam ran things?
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  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    If it is a public library funded by taxpayer dollars, it is available for public knowledge. Just like most records at your courthouse. Public records consist of a vast array of documents to include deeds, titles, marriage certificates and death certificates. Those are all legal for the feds or even oridnary citizen me to review.
    You think you have the right to walk into a library and see what someone checked out because tax dollars are involved?
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Do you even know what it is?

    A "sneak and peek" warrant allows the authorities to search without notifying the target at the time of the search. The warrant still must be issued by a magistrate based on a show of probable cause. The target does need to be notified later, however. The reason is so that a terrorist who is a member of a network would not be able to alert the otther members of the cell.

    You think this is how Saddam ran things?
    The Patriot Act has nothing to do with Hussein, why would you say such a thing?
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    #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    You think you have the right to walk into a library and see what someone checked out because tax dollars are involved?
    It is a public record.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    It is a public record.
    Um, no it's not.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    ...and monitoring what books I read at the library.
    Do you think we should allow this in drug and organized crime investigations? We do, you know. It's just terrorism investigations where it wasn't allowed (until the Patriot Act). Does that make sense to you? You know that the government must show probable cause and have a warrant issued to do this, right?

    These laws make us safer and do not threaten anyone's liberties. This was recognized by vast majorities when the Patriot Act was first passed. Allowing it to sunset makes it more likely that your neighbors will die in an attack that could not be detected and thwarted. That's rough, but true.
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  11. #31  
    Anybody notice that once again Da was asked "What would you do?" and yet again he has failed to provide an alternative.

    How long do you give it before Da abandons this thread and finds some other issue to ***** and moan about?
  12.    #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    You know that the government must show probable cause and have a warrant issued to do this, right?
    Thanks for bringing it up. I raised this issue to the Feingold staffers when they called and they didn't know about it.

    Reading the law helps debate it but it's not a requirement if you already know you're right.
    Recognizing that I volunteered...
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    Anybody notice that once again Da was asked "What would you do?" and yet again he has failed to provide an alternative.

    How long do you give it before Da abandons this thread and finds some other issue to ***** and moan about?
    Apparently you missed this post:
    I would start by letting the more intrusive aspects of the Patriot Act sunset. That's why they had a sunset clause attached to them to begin with.

    This is includes coming into my home without my knowledge and monitoring what books I read at the library.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Sorry, sneak and peeks are most certainly a police state.
    Just because you say something doesn't make it true. You need to be able to delineate between less-than ideal situations (sneak and peeks) and worse case scenarios (police state thugs kidnapping people in the middle of the night). It is important to be vigilant, but being alarmist only hurts your cause.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    The Patriot Act has nothing to do with Hussein, why would you say such a thing?
    Because he's clarifying the difference between what you are analyzing (the PATRIOT Act --I hate having to capitalize that as an acronym) and what you are equating it to (police state). Iraq was a police state (and I suppose in many ways still is).
  16. cardio's Avatar
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    #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Apparently you missed this post:
    I would start by letting the more intrusive aspects of the Patriot Act sunset. That's why they had a sunset clause attached to them to begin with.

    This is includes coming into my home without my knowledge and monitoring what books I read at the library.
    OK, we will go slow for you, you have told us what you would not do. Now, can you tell us what you would do to help prevent terrorist activities?
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Apparently you missed this post:
    I would start by letting the more intrusive aspects of the Patriot Act sunset. That's why they had a sunset clause attached to them to begin with.

    This is includes coming into my home without my knowledge and monitoring what books I read at the library.
    NO I read the post. All this says is- remove whats currently in place. The post makes no mention of replacement solutions.

    You're full of what not to do statements, but never have any what to do ideas.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    These laws make us safer and do not threaten anyone's liberties. This was recognized by vast majorities when the Patriot Act was first passed. Allowing it to sunset makes it more likely that your neighbors will die in an attack that could not be detected and thwarted. That's rough, but true.
    Libraries are a place where knowledge is obtained and exchanged and that is the very basis of a sound democracy.

    I understand that a police state would make it basically impossible to carry out a terrorist act however the loss of freedom is not a fair price IMO. I see how Israelis choose to live, being searched on a whim etc and I say, never here. Also, do realize, the more we chip away at our own freedom and liberties the more the terrorist wins.
  19. #39  
    Its just like any other thread ALWAYS against NEVER for
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    NO I read the post. All this says is- remove whats currently in place. The post makes no mention of replacement solutions.

    You're full of what not to do statements, but never have any what to do ideas.
    No, it says let the extreme crap sunset, and take what we had before and make it better! For example, the 9-11 commission recommendations.
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