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  1. NRG
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    #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    It is a letter from a single person, (to the Vice President) however I am sure the "I voted for it before I voted against it" group will chime in any minute now and say, "Oh we were going to send a letter, but ran out of stamps" or something along those lines.
    I think 4 people in congress were notified.
  2. #82  
    Heh...

    “The issue here is this: If you’re John McCain and you just got Congress to agree to limits on interrogation techniques, why would you think that limits anything if the executive branch can ignore can ignore it by asserting its inherent authority?”- Jamie Gorelick, former deputy attorney general under President Clinton, in today’s Washington Post, p. A10.

    "The Department of Justice believes, and the case law supports, that the president has inherent authority to conduct warrantless physical searches for foreign intelligence purposes and that the President may, as has been done, delegate this authority to the Attorney General.

    "It is important to understand, that the rules and methodology for criminal searches are inconsistent with the collection of foreign intelligence and would unduly frustrate the president in carrying out his foreign intelligence responsibilities." - Jamie Gorelick testifying before the Senate Intelligence Committee on July 14, 1994
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  3. NRG
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    #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Heh...
    You are going to have to give me a decoder ring to understand the quotes you offered up.
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    #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    I think 4 people in congress were notified.
    Did the other 3 approve? that would be a 75% approval
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
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  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    You are going to have to give me a decoder ring to understand the quotes you offered up.
    Sorry. Which part of "hypocrisy" are you having trouble with?

    It was OK for Clinton to push for warrantless intelligence surveillance. When Bush does it - in an environmet with clear threat, by the way - then it's a problem.

    These quotes are simply evidence of the purely political (and frankly disgusting) nature of the criticism of Bush.
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  6. NRG
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    #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Did the other 3 approve? that would be a 75% approval
    I think Pelosi mentioned she was leary of the whole thing.
  7. NRG
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    #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Sorry. Which part of "hypocrisy" are you having trouble with?

    It was OK for Clinton to push for warrantless intelligence surveillance. When Bush does it - in an environmet with clear threat, by the way - then it's a problem.

    These quotes are simply evidence of the purely political (and frankly disgusting) nature of the criticism of Bush.
    The reason I asked is because there is no context.
  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    I think Pelosi mentioned she was leary of the whole thing.
    Yeah. She was very outspoken about her concerns. A regular profile in courage.
  9. NRG
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    #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Yeah. She was very outspoken about her concerns. A regular profile in courage.
    Now, I think she was bound by secrecy. If she wasn't then your assertion would hold true.
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    #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Now, I think she was bound by secrecy. If she wasn't then your assertion would hold true.
    BS. If she was concerned she could/would/should have said something when it was discussed. Once it was discussed, approved and implemented then she needed to keep the secrecy, but when first discussed ask questions, get clarification, demand protocols. At least Rockerfeller put something in writing, and from what we saw did not disrupt the need for secrecy. If this is such a huge concern now, why no concern over echelon in the 90's?

    Double standards, love em. From both sides.
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  11. NRG
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    #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    BS. If she was concerned she could/would/should have said something when it was discussed. Once it was discussed, approved and implemented then she needed to keep the secrecy, but when first discussed ask questions, get clarification, demand protocols. At least Rockerfeller put something in writing, and from what we saw did not disrupt the need for secrecy. If this is such a huge concern now, why no concern over echelon in the 90's?

    Double standards, love em. From both sides.
    Cardio, I don't want to get to far into this as I don't have all the facts. But as far as my understanding goes,1) they were 'briefed', no approval process was done, 2) They were briefed after it had started.

    As far as I know we are going to have to see what comes out in the wash.
  12.    #92  
    If no wiretapping was done and we were attacked after 9/11, Bush would of been blamed for not doing all he could to track communication. This is so political.
  13. NRG
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    #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    If no wiretapping was done and we were attacked after 9/11, Bush would of been blamed for not doing all he could to track communication. This is so political.
    What if's are not arguments ATM.
  14. #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    If no wiretapping was done and we were attacked after 9/11, Bush would of been blamed for not doing all he could to track communication. This is so political.
    You make it sound as if it's wrong to blame someone but isn't that the risk you take when you are President? What's wrong with being accountable?

    Should the President have unlimited, unchecked power to prosecute the war on terrorism? (That way he can't be blamed because he has all the tools he needs?) And why is this political? Why is it that you seem unconcerned that the law of the land may not have been followed?
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    #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    You make it sound as if it's wrong to blame someone but isn't that the risk you take when you are President? What's wrong with being accountable?

    Should the President have unlimited, unchecked power to prosecute the war on terrorism? (That way he can't be blamed because he has all the tools he needs?) And why is this political? Why is it that you seem unconcerned that the law of the land may not have been followed?
    Being accountable is fine, let's hope the individual/s that leaked this story are held accountable. From what I have read the law of the land has been followed. The tracking of electronic data to and from international points of known (or highly suspect) terrorist affiliations has taken place. I have not seen any evidence that an American citizens rights have been violated. Let a bipartisan, classified team review what has taken place. If it is found that all is above board, then the individuals that made this information public could be tried for treason.
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  16. NRG
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    #96  
    Update: Bipartisan consensus pushing for investigation.


    Source: Reuters

    Senators seek probe of Bush's spying orders

    WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Rebuffing assurances from President George W. Bush, bipartisan members of the U.S. Senate's Intelligence Committee called on Tuesday for an immediate inquiry into his authorization of spying on Americans.

    But Vice President **** Cheney predicted a backlash against critics of the administration's anti-terrorism policies as he forcefully defended a program that critics say may have exceeded Bush's powers.

    Republican Sens. Chuck Hagel of Nebraska and Olympia Snowe of Maine joined Democratic Sens. Carl Levin of Michigan, Dianne Feinstein of California and Ron Wyden of Oregon in calling for a joint investigation by the Senate Intelligence and Judiciary Committees into whether the government eavesdropped "without appropriate legal authority."

    Several Republican and Democratic lawmakers have raised questions about whether spying on Americans violates the U.S. Constitution and have already backed a plan for a congressional hearing into the program, first revealed by The New York Times last week.
    -snip-
  17. #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    From what I have read the law of the land has been followed.
    I am not so sure. If the law had been followed, Pres. Bush would still be required to get warrants. Gonzalez is making the argument that Congress 'implied' this power to the President after 9/11. Even if they did, Congress isn't authorized to give it's power to the President (hence the reason for checks and balances in the constitution). Regardless of politics, I think this sums it up best:
    link Democrat senator Russell Feingold said Mr Bush's actions were clearly illegal and that he "couldn't make up authority that wasn't there".

    "There was no legislative authority for this," he said. "The idea that when I voted for the authority to act against Afghanistan, I was voting for these wire-taps is one of the worst arguments I have heard."
    I guess it won't really matter though until it is challenged in court.

    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    The tracking of electronic data to and from international points of known (or highly suspect) terrorist affiliations has taken place. I have not seen any evidence that an American citizens rights have been violated.
    I think that is kind of the problem. WE would never know about this program if someone didn't reveal it. WE would never know that our rights have been violated if the CIA/NSA listened in on our conversations.
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  18. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I am not so sure. If the law had been followed, Pres. Bush would still be required to get warrants. Gonzalez is making the argument that Congress 'implied' this power to the President after 9/11. Even if they did, Congress isn't authorized to give it's power to the President (hence the reason for checks and balances in the constitution).
    Gonzalez's point is that the Congress did give the President authority to engage in military action against the terrorists (they are authorized to do this). To continue with the Admin's logic, SigInt in foreign territory is military action. Phone calls or email with a foot in foreign territory are in keeping with Congress' authorization. Warrants via FISA are required when not covered by other authorizations. Ergo, warrants weren't required for the eavesdropping they did.

    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Regardless of politics, I think this sums it up best:I guess it won't really matter though until it is challenged in court.
    link Democrat senator Russell Feingold said Mr Bush's actions were clearly illegal and that he "couldn't make up authority that wasn't there".

    "There was no legislative authority for this," he said. "The idea that when I voted for the authority to act against Afghanistan, I was voting for these wire-taps is one of the worst arguments I have heard."
    I'm sure my senator wasn't voting for flying a Predator into the right hand of a guy aiming an RPG at a Bradley, either. No one votes for the specifics (shouldn't really be claimed by the Administration either) but for the principles. Action was authorized, action was taken. Were the two a good fit? We'll see...

    This should be investigated behind closed doors by classified, trusted (by both sides) advisors. If we don't have a fit with what was done and what should have been done, let's fix it.
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  19.    #99  
    Yes, President George W. Bush should.

    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Should the President have unlimited, unchecked power to prosecute the war on terrorism?
  20. #100  
    (Bush) Secondly, there are such things as roving wiretaps. Now, by the way, any time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, it requires -- a wiretap requires a court order. Nothing has changed, by the way. When we're talking about chasing down terrorists, we're talking about getting a court order before we do so. It's important for our fellow citizens to understand, when you think Patriot Act, constitutional guarantees are in place when it comes to doing what is necessary to protect our homeland, because we value the Constitution.
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