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  1.    #481  
    That's website is like quoting Rush on Bill Clinton!

    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    So I guess that is all you can say. Typical, attack the messenger.
  2. #482  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    That's website is like quoting Rush on Bill Clinton!
    No... actually it's like quoting Free Republic on Bill Clinton...
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  3.    #483  
    Seriously, I'll pose this question again. Whether it is legal or not, is tapping a phone line on a al-queda member such a bad thing? Think about it, don't be blind b/c of your dislike of Pres. Bush. The NSA is not listening to me calling my wife to pick up my drycleaning, the NSA is listening to a scumbag call a known terrorist in Pakistan. Amazing this even made news or much less talked about so much here. fn ridiculous to me. Common sense would tell me that if someone was trying to kill me, if I had the technology to do so, I would listen in on their plan on how they were gonna try so I could kill them before they tried to kill me.
  4. #484  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Nope. Please elaborate.
    Nevermind - I found it on the same crackpot site.
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  5. #485  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Seriously, I'll pose this question again. Whether it is legal or not, is tapping a phone line on a al-queda member such a bad thing?
    Generally no. However, if that al-queda person is a US citizen, then certain procedures should be followed. If the al-queda person is calling a US citizen, then again, certain procedures should be followed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Think about it, don't be blind b/c of your dislike of Pres. Bush.
    Why is the argument that if you are against the govt. wiretapping without warrants that you must hate the President? I don't hate Pres. Bush. I actually think he has done some pretty good things in office (and I especially like him as a person. ) This whole issue (at least to me) has nothing to do with Pres. Bush, but rather the justification behind ignoring the law.

    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    The NSA is not listening to me calling my wife to pick up my drycleaning, the NSA is listening to a scumbag call a known terrorist in Pakistan.
    Actually it is a 'suspected' scumbag that they are probably listening to. Now, without the FISA court, we have one less level of protection against govt. intrusion when it comes to this surveillance. Is it likely that they are spying on someone that is not a terrorist and does not have ties to al-queada? Probably not...but there is a reason that we keep govt. accountable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Amazing this even made news or much less talked about so much here. fn ridiculous to me.
    Have you thought why this is making news? Is it arguable that if you don't understand why, that there might actually be a good reason for the debate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Common sense would tell me that if someone was trying to kill me, if I had the technology to do so, I would listen in on their plan on how they were gonna try so I could kill them before they tried to kill me.
    This analogy is really oversimplified for the wiretapping scenario. However, for fun, let's apply that to real life.

    Say you overheard your neighbor planning to kill you next week. If you went over the next day and shot him, do you think you would go free and not be punished? Of course not. First of all, common sense isn't all that common. Secondly, the threat required for you to use deadly force must be imminent. Third, you could have been mistaken as to exactly what you were listening to.

    My point is that we have the judicial safeguards in place because the underlying premise is that we all have certain rights. We shouldn't just give up those rights without due process. It becomes a slippery slope argument if once we begin to disregard the law.

    ATM: I agree with you wholeheartedly that we should use whatever means is necessary to catch and stop terrorists. But lets do it within the letter of the law. If the law is to slow or is ineffective, there are ways to address that.
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  6.    #486  
    I definitely think many that are against the wiretapping have not thought it through. They simply go against anything President Bush is for.

    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Why is the argument that if you are against the govt. wiretapping without warrants that you must hate the President? I don't hate Pres. Bush. I actually think he has done some pretty good things in office (and I especially like him as a person. ) This whole issue (at least to me) has nothing to do with Pres. Bush, but rather the justification behind ignoring the law.
  7. #487  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    I definitely think many that are against the wiretapping have not thought it through. They simply go against anything President Bush is for.
    I think you are right that there are people who are trying seize this opportunity to use it as a personal attack.

    It will be interesting to see how his state of the union speech comes across. I think it would help him if Judge Alito gets confirmed before then as well.
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  8. NRG
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    #488  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Nevermind - I found it on the same crackpot site.
    Why is it such a crackpot website? I mean all it is videos. If that one is not up to your liking then read this for a better legal understanding of the issue at hand. http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2...ions-july.html
  9. #489  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Why is it such a crackpot website? I mean all it is videos. If that one is not up to your liking then read this for a better legal understanding of the issue at hand. http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2...ions-july.html
    Actually, I prefer this one, which at least attempts to tell the other side of the story:
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...012701476.html
    ...But the Justice Department said that the measures were not drafted to help the NSA effort.

    "These proposals were drafted by junior staffers and never formally presented to the attorney general or the White House," said department spokeswoman Tasia Scolinos. "They were not drafted with the NSA program in mind."

    The Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003 -- dubbed "Patriot II" by critics -- was leaked to the media in February 2003 and soon abandoned by Justice officials, who characterized it at the time as an "early draft" written by staff lawyers. The proposal included several provisions that, in retrospect, would have affected the NSA's program of monitoring telephone calls and e-mails, which was disclosed last month in press reports.
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  10. #490  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Why is it such a crackpot website?
    crackpot

    ADJECTIVE:

    Foolish; harebrained: a crackpot notion.
    Judging from the website, only Republicans are capable of being crooks and liars. That is a crackpot notion.
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  11. NRG
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    #491  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Judging from the website, only Republicans are capable of being crooks and liars. That is a crackpot notion.
    Never said it was unbiased.
  12. NRG
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    #492  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Actually, I prefer this one, which at least attempts to tell the other side of the story:
    Inconsistency within' the facts, this subject should be investagated further.
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    #493  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Inconsistency within' the facts, this subject should be investagated further.
    I think it is being investigated further, but more on leaking classified information/operations than international wiretaps.
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  14. NRG
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    #494  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    I think it is being investigated further, but more on leaking classified information/operations than international wiretaps.
    Aren't they going to have to contend with 'Whistleblower' laws, before they go after people who 'leaked'?
  15. #495  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Aren't they going to have to contend with 'Whistleblower' laws, before they after people who 'leaked'?
    Nope. To be a whistleblower, one must go through the proper inspector general of one's agency. Going to the press to expose a classified program is not "whistleblowing". This would actually be accurately referred to as a "felony" or "espionage" or "treason".
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  16. NRG
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    #496  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Nope. To be a whistleblower, one must go through the proper inspector general of one's agency. Going to the press to expose a classified program is not "whistleblowing". This would actually be accurately referred to as a "felony" or "espionage" or "treason".
    Can you provide me with some clarification of that rule, maybe via cite/link? The actual law would be nice.
  17. NRG
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    #497  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Nope. To be a whistleblower, one must go through the proper inspector general of one's agency. Going to the press to expose a classified program is not "whistleblowing". This would actually be accurately referred to as a "felony" or "espionage" or "treason".
    Oh, so the Val Plame thing is Treason!? I catch your drift.
  18. #498  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Oh, so the Val Plame thing is Treason!? I catch your drift.
    The Valerie Plame case is kiddie-time compared to this. That should be obvious to all but the completely deluded. Leaving that aside - I fail to see how that is even remotely related to this case.
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Can you provide me with some clarification of that rule, maybe via cite/link? The actual law would be nice.
    I'm mobile, so that's not going to be easy. Where's Hobbes when you need him?

    Seriously, I've read that in news accounts. I'll get a cite as soon as I can. Use some common sense though; anyone could leak any classified info to the press for any reason whatsoever or to satisfy whatever personal agenda they might have. If you were correct, they'd only have to claim they were a "whistleblower" to avoid legal consequences for their disclosure. Surely you can't believe that's how it works...

    It's also worth noting that the NY Times is likely to get some legal heat over this - knowingly publishing classified information is also a crime...
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  19. #499  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Oh, so the Val Plame thing is Treason!? I catch your drift.
    And yes, exposing an actual covert CIA operative (as opposed to a publicity-hungry, political hack poseur) would be a crime.
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  20. #500  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Where's Hobbes when you need him?
    Im obviously not Hobbes but here is the Federal Whistleblower Act

    Here is an overview of various whistleblower protections (it varies depending on jurisdiction and issue I think.)

    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    It's also worth noting that the NY Times is likely to get some legal heat over this - knowingly publishing classified information is also a crime...
    I don't think so. The first amendment goes a LONG way in protecting freedom of the press. You don't think that the legal staff at the Times looked this over before releasing it do you
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