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  1. #241  
    Here is the answer to the question of why the administration isn't getting warrants for the NSA surveillance at issue here:
    http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/op...ists/59115.htm

    From a New York Post op-ed:

    In 2002, the feds (presumably the NSA) picked up random cellphone chatter using the words "Brooklyn Bridge" (which apparently didn't translate well into Arabic). They notified the New York Police Department, which flooded the bridge with cops. Then the feds overheard a phone call in which a man said things were "too hot" on the bridge to pull off an operation. Later, an interrogation of a terrorist allowed by the Patriot Act led cops to the doorstep of this would-be bridge bomber. (His plans would definitely have brought down the bridge, NYPD sources told me.)

    Why didn't Bush get a warrant? On who? For what? The NSA wasn't looking for a man who might blow up the bridge. It had no idea what it was looking for. It just intercepted random phone calls from people in the United States to those outside and so heard the allusions to the bridge that tipped them off.

    In criminal investigations, one can target a suspect and get a warrant to investigate him. But this deductive approach is a limited instrument in fighting terror. An inductive approach, in which one gathers a mass of evidence and looks for patterns, is far more useful.

    But, if the Democrats are to be heeded, it will no longer be possible.
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  2. #242  
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Jefferson
    If you're not collaberating with Hamas or Al Quaida and you're not a threat to National Security... I'd say you can chill out now.
    Actually I heard an interview on Sat Radio yest on a Radio Talk show....Tony Snow, I think. Whoever it was, he was interviewing a recently retired higher ranking official in the Intel arena that dealt specifically with terrorist wire taps on a federal level. The host made the same claim you did above, and the guy stopped him and said that he was wrong.

    He said that the calls in question were ONLY targetting AQ, those with ties with AQ, those doing business with AQ, etc..... They were not monitoring any other terrorist org, like Hamas.
  3. NRG
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    #243  
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Jefferson
    Listen to what you just said "...the test of time? for over two centuries?"
    Jesus man... we are infants in World History, two hundred years is a flash in the pan, man...
    Your point is?

    Granted the Constitution is great.

    Granted, we are successful and I love this Country very much, but we are NOT infallible.
    So are you saying the constitution can be wrong at time?

    [quote[Political Correctness, with the support of trial lawyers and rogue Circuit Court Judges has the potential to completely take our society into insane decadence and beyond to self destruction in a very short period of time.[/quote]Glad, to see you have got all your dislike in the right places.

    Seriously, think about that for a moment.

    Nearly every great society that has ever existed on this planet has fallen from either decadence or generally having too much of itself.
    Too much of itself? You don't say do you?

    Are we, The U.S., exceptions to the rule?
    No, we are no exception.

    Sorry GungHo, the laws of the universe still apply.

    If we stop defending this Country from within over subtle nuances in our freedoms, with an enemy such as terrorism having already successfully pulled off what only a hollywood director has been able to do to date... we are screwed.

    But what about our civil liberties? Please... stop it... there hasn't been one case of prosecution of an American yet over this... when there is a case brought to court involving a secret roving wiretap, we can talk again.
    I am pretty much going to stay out of this arguement till investigations are held. But, make no mistake civil liberties are the back bone of our way of life. Also, remember if this is legal for this president, it will be legal, for, say, Hillary.
  4. #244  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Also, remember if this is legal for this president, it will be legal, for, say, Hillary.
    *shiver*

    Add that to the (already long) list of reasons to never vote for her.
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  5. #245  
    I second that...*shiver* if the Clintons can self-corrupt through power, it's seems that they will self-corrupt through power... as they have willingly demonstrated over and over. I shudder to think of what other antics of theirs will be uncovered over the next 10-20 years... I'm talking about selling out to other countries in exchange for whatever... brilliant diplomat my azz!... and I'm thinking Chinese here.
  6. #246  
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Jefferson
    Paranoia will Destroya.....
    Thats not the point I am trying to make...simply that if we have laws in place, then we shouldn't have one person arbitrarily decide if we should follow them or not. Im not paranoid...like you I have nothing to hide. However unlike you, I am making an argument based on a principle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Jefferson
    OK everyone, let's come back down to Earth now... If you're not collaberating with Hamas or Al Quaida and you're not a threat to National Security... I'd say you can chill out now.
    Im chilled out...in fact I have attempted to remain very rational in this discussion. Let me ask you this...how do you think the govt. comes to the decision that you are apart of one of the groups you mentioned? You don't think mistakes are made when that type of human assessment is made?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Jefferson
    But so sorry Beavis, your delicate sensibilities and yearning for enlightened political correctness will have to be put on hold... sleeper cells come first.
    Nice argument...you start out with a petty insult. Point in fact...I would not be targetted by this decision in any way...so my sensitivities really aren't relevant. Im thinking more along the lines of people who speak out against our foreign policy and who have family and friends abroad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Jefferson
    Like I was saying, this country enjoys the presence of it's women and children in the following condition:
    -happy
    -healthy
    -non-stressed and without on-going, daily fear
    -non-irradiated
    -with all limbs intact
    -with no chemical induced nerve damage
    Y'know... FREE
    Kinda like the way it is right now, in fact.
    Nice argument...I thought I pointed this out before...why are you making an 'all or nothing' argument? Why can't we have what you listed above and still follow FISA guidelines? Its very ironic that you value freedom but on the other hand, limiting individual rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Jefferson
    Thank you President Bush
    Thank you U.S. Armed Forces
    Thank you US Border Patrol
    Thank You Sky Marshalls
    Merry Christmas Everyone!
    -----------------------------
    Oh, this is the point at which the deluded, the paranoid, the politically hateful, and terrorists with something to lose... begin caterwalling again.
    You seem awfully bitter...I do hope you have a Merry Chrismas.
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  7.    #247  
    NYT came out today with further information to make sure the USA receives another terror attack. I think Al Queda runs NYT.

    USA terror cell newspaper
  8. #248  
    [QUOTE=NRG]Your point is?....

    I have no idea who you are or are not agreeing with.
  9. #249  
    [QUOTE=Advance The Man]NYT came out today with further information to make sure the USA receives another terror attack. I think Al Queda runs NYT.

    Sickeningly enough... You may not be far off the mark there.
  10. #250  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    NYT came out today with further information to make sure the USA receives another terror attack. I think Al Queda runs NYT.

    USA terror cell newspaper
    So the NY Times holds this story during the election and they're AQ? They publish all the misleading fictional reasons to go to war in Iraq and they're AQ?

    You have a warped sense of punditry.
  11. #251  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    So the NY Times holds this story during the election and they're AQ? They publish all the misleading fictional reasons to go to war in Iraq and they're AQ?

    You have a warped sense of punditry.
    I kind of think they are joking.

    But seriously, if what was reported is true, I wouldn't think that I would hear it from the administration who supports this policy (and it's not a matter of politics...both Dems and Reps wouldn't advertise this info).

    All the more reason why we should not backdoor the FISA guidelines.
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  12. NRG
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    #252  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    NYT came out today with further information to make sure the USA receives another terror attack. I think Al Queda runs NYT.

    USA terror cell newspaper
    It is bad for President Bush, so therefore it equals another terrorist attack? Come on dude!
  13. NRG
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    #253  
    [QUOTE=Tom Jefferson]
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Your point is?....

    I have no idea who you are or are not agreeing with.
    That's OK, hang around enough and you will learn.
  14. NRG
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    #254  
    Update:

    Source: South Coast Today

    Federal agents' visit was a hoax
    NEW BEDFORD -- The UMass Dartmouth student who claimed to have been visited by Homeland Security agents over his request for "The Little Red Book" by Mao Zedong has admitted to making up the entire story.
    The 22-year-old student tearfully admitted he made the story up to his history professor, Dr. Brian Glyn Williams, and his parents, after being confronted with the inconsistencies in his account.

    -snip-

    "I grew skeptical of this story, as did Bob, considering the ramifications," Dr. Williams said yesterday. "I spent the last five days avoiding work, and the international media, and rest, trying to get names and dates and facts. My investigation eventually took me to his house, where I began to investigate family matters. I eventually found out the whole thing had been invented, and I'm happy to report that it's safe to borrow books."

    <snip>

    The student's motivation remains a mystery, but in the interview on Thursday, he provided a glimpse.
    "When I came back, like wow, there's this circus coming on. I saw my cell phone, and I see like, wow, I have something like 75 messages and like something like 87 missed calls," he said. "Wow, I was popular. I usually get one or probably two a week and that's about it, and I usually pick them up."
  15. NRG
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    #255  
    'all your phone calls are belong to us' - Pres. Bush

  16. #256  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    All the more reason why we should not backdoor the FISA guidelines.
    I have no problem at all with oversight. My question, however is how do we gather intel when we don't have precise enough info to obtain a warrant which requires that the specific person or place and items sought be specified?

    Did you read the piece from the NY Post I cited earlier? This program gathered intel that the NYPD believes saved the Brooklyn Bridge from being destroyed. It was intel that couldn't possibly have been gathered using traditional domestic law-enforcement/warrant guidelines. We need to find a way to accomodate civil liberties without putting the lives of hundreds or thousands of citizens at risk. The administration is trying to to this (it is reviewing these efforts using the Justice department and has notified Congress - despite the fact it seems to be leaking like a sieve) - apparently with little cooperation from the loyal opposition.
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  17. #257  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I kind of think they are joking.

    But seriously, if what was reported is true, I wouldn't think that I would hear it from the administration who supports this policy (and it's not a matter of politics...both Dems and Reps wouldn't advertise this info).

    All the more reason why we should not backdoor the FISA guidelines.
    No. Actually repubs are trying to suggest the Times held the story until the Patriot act debate to cause it problems. If that were the case, why not disclose it during the 2004 election?
  18. #258  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    No. Actually repubs are trying to suggest the Times held the story until the Patriot act debate to cause it problems. If that were the case, why not disclose it during the 2004 election?
    Of course, you're taking the Times at its word that it had the story nailed down that long ago. The Repubs are justifiably suspicious of the Old Grey Lady.
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