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  1.    #1  
    Ever notice how few of the proponents of assisted suicide partake of the business end of the transaction?
  2. #2  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Ever notice how few of the proponents of assisted suicide partake of the business end of the transaction?
    No, I haven't seen those statistics. What is the ratio of proponents who partake to those who don't?
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  3.    #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gamble
    No, I haven't seen those statistics. What is the ratio of proponents who partake to those who don't?
    I must confess, I don't have actual statistics. All of the on-going vocal support I've heard has only come from non-participants.
  4. #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    I must confess, I don't have actual statistics. All of the on-going vocal support I've heard has only come from non-participants.
    Just stands to reason: once one's participated, he's not likely to vocalize anything at all, is he?
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  5.    #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gamble
    Just stands to reason: once one's participated, he's not likely to vocalize anything at all, is he?
    Indeed.

    Seriously, though, I would like to discuss the topic. In the recently deceased thread about journalists held in China, the topic was raised (can you say "tangent"?). A statement was included regarding the difference between murder and suicide.

    Clearly there is a difference. Yet, if 2 people used a syringe filled with a poisonous substance to attack and kill a third person without provocation, they would all be considered murderers. So, I'm not clear on why those 2 would be exhonerated if their victim was an active, voluntary participant in the process.

    And, since I have been contemplating starting a topic about the death penalty, I'll add that wrinkle.

    What is the difference between the state authroizing a person to assist in a suicide and authorizing a person to terminate the life of someone who has murdered yet another person?
  6. #6  
    With the death penalty, the doctor is advancing the interest of the state. With assisted suicide, the only interest involved belongs to the individual.
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  7.    #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    With the death penalty, the doctor is advancing the interest of the state. With assisted suicide, the only interest involved belongs to the individual.
    Hmmmm.

    Before I ask my real question, I have a preliminary inquiry: Where you stand on these issues? For or against?
  8. #8  
    This should throw gasoline on the fire:

    I"m in support of the death penalty, against assisted suicide (euthanasia), and against abortion.

    Some people ask how I can be against abortion, but still support the death penalty. That is a stupid question in my opinion. How anyone can equate killing an innocent baby, who never did anything wrong, with someone who murders another person being put to death equal?
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Hmmmm.

    Before I ask my real question, I have a preliminary inquiry: Where you stand on these issues? For or against?
    1. Pro death penalty. I have no problems with it.

    2. Assisted suicide - leave it up to the states. If my state were voting on it, I would probably vote to allow it with strict controls/requirements/waiting periods.
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  10. #10  
    Abortion - for. This one should be left up to an individuals conscience.

    Death penalty - against. This one doesn't make sense either economically or morally. It costs more money to kill someone than it does to lock them up for life. And the American justice system is not perfect, once a person is dead, mistakes in convictions can't be corrected.

    Assisted suicide - for. If a person honestly believes that their life isn't worth living, who am I to say that it is. As long it is their choice and not coerced in any way.

    StrangeReaction - "Some people ask how I can be against abortion, but still support the death penalty. That is a stupid question in my opinion. How anyone can equate killing an innocent baby, who never did anything wrong, with someone who murders another person being put to death equal?"


    My question to you would be: How is it that some people can be so concerned with making sure a life is brought into the world but be willing to end that life if it does something they don't approve of.
  11. #11  
    My question to you would be: How is it that some people can be so concerned with making sure a life is brought into the world but be willing to end that life if it does something they don't approve of.
    One would think mass murder or even cold-blooded murder of one individual would be something no one would "approve of"...

    Sorry, but I feel your moral compass is having difficulty finding its way...

    Your comparison of innocent life with death-row scum is sickening. Also, the reason execution is so expensive is the nearly endless appeals that are allowed. I'm all for making execution of heinous criminals "cheaper". Tookie Williams was convicted 26 (!) years ago - that seems a bit long.
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  12. #12  
    Since I didn't get to respond to a comment about "the difference between murder and suicide" before Bill mercifully put an end to another OT thread gone horribly wrong, the difference is the wishes of the victim.

    Murder = unwanted death
    Suicide = wanted death

    Of course, in the case of the Swiss government approved suicide, these guidlines become quite murky when the victim is unable to reason on their own behalf, such as with Ludwig Minelli, a lawyer who founded Dignitas, a company that performs most of the Swiss state approved suicides. He believes that "severe depression can be irreversible and that he is justified" in helping "the mentally ill" to die.

    Sounds to me that now we are convicting the mentally impaired to a short life, simply because they are impaired. It would be easy to argue that this "suicide" has quickly transpired from the victim's "wanted death" to an "unwanted death".
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  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by ephet
    Abortion - for. This one should be left up to an individuals conscience.

    Death penalty - against. This one doesn't make sense either economically or morally. It costs more money to kill someone than it does to lock them up for life. And the American justice system is not perfect, once a person is dead, mistakes in convictions can't be corrected.

    Assisted suicide - for. If a person honestly believes that their life isn't worth living, who am I to say that it is. As long it is their choice and not coerced in any way.
    I heartily agree. My only qualm with abortion is that it SEEMS to be more and more construed as a standard method for birth-control whereas there are far more effective and less controversial ways...but hey, it's her body.

    The death penalty doesn't make any sense to me, but I know better than to argue with some of the people here
  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by ephet
    Death penalty - against. This one doesn't make sense either economically or morally. It costs more money to kill someone than it does to lock them up for life. And the American justice system is not perfect, once a person is dead, mistakes in convictions can't be corrected.
    I have no idea how you came up with this, but I would really like to see some supporting numbers behind it.

    I don't see how it's possible that keeping someone alive on Death Row for 20+ years (Tookie Williams, Ted Bundy, etc) or giving them life in prison is cheaper than executing them. We have to pay to support these people for years, as opposed to sticking a needle in their arms and being done with it. That cocktail isn't that expensive.

    You may be right about it not making sense morally (although I fully support the death penalty, I feel it takes too long to execute the criminals, and would fully support using televised executions as a deterrent, but maybe it isn't the right thing to do), but you're really reaching when you say it doesn't make sense economically.
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  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    I have no idea how you came up with this, but I would really like to see some supporting numbers behind it.

    I don't see how it's possible that keeping someone alive on Death Row for 20+ years (Tookie Williams, Ted Bundy, etc) or giving them life in prison is cheaper than executing them. We have to pay to support these people for years, as opposed to sticking a needle in their arms and being done with it. That cocktail isn't that expensive.

    You may be right about it not making sense morally (although I fully support the death penalty, I feel it takes too long to execute the criminals, and would fully support using televised executions as a deterrent, but maybe it isn't the right thing to do), but you're really reaching when you say it doesn't make sense economically.
    Do a google search or read this: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/NY-RCD-Test.pdf
  16. #16  
    Death penalty --> For...this is going against the mainstream Catholicism but I just can't see not giving justice to another family that had his mom/dad/child murdered. Forgiveness first, but justice always.

    Abortion --> Against (pretty straight forward)

    Assisted Suicide --> Against, but this is more delicate for me. I have great pity for someone who is suffering severly, but suicide is a BIG NO-NO in Catholicism. But this goes a bit deeper...I've wondered if specifying to not be kept on life-support ahead of time would be considered suicide (i.e. I get in an accident and become a vegetable, if I told my wife that I'd want to die, would that be considered suicide?). I think it would be...and therefore have not specified what I'd want to do...hoping that if this ever happened, that my wife would end my suffering. Is that a double-standard? Yes. It's something I struggle with, but a short-term answer is...I'm against it and for totally religous reasons. Forgoing a lifetime of pain is not worth spending eternity in hell (i.e. totally religious reasons).
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    #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by Sherv
    Do a google search or read this: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/NY-RCD-Test.pdf
    Did not read word for word, but scanning the document led me to the conclusion that the death penalty cost included the years and years of appeals and the cost of incarceration during the appeals. Life in prison would have the same appeals and cost associated so not really more expensive.
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by Sherv
    Do a google search or read this: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/NY-RCD-Test.pdf
    That's a good find...I always assumed life in prison would be more expensive. Not sure how good their assumptions are...but still, now I know it's not a "slam dunk" on death penalty being cheaper.
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Did not read word for word, but scanning the document led me to the conclusion that the death penalty cost included the years and years of appeals and the cost of incarceration during the appeals. Life in prison would have the same appeals and cost associated so not really more expensive.


    Read carefully from the bottom of page 6:

    "HOW MUCH DOES THE DEATH PENALTY COST?
    The major cost studies on the death penalty all indicate that it is much more
    expensive than a system where the most severe sentence is life in prison"
  20. cardio's Avatar
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    #20  
    My thoughts, not trying to convince anyone to change their mind, just my thoughts.

    Abortion is simply the death penalty handed down to an unborn child by the expectant mother. One difference is that with abortion the person be executed has not been charged with a crime, there is no free legal assistance for the unborn child, there is no jury of peers for the unborn child, the child does not have legal defense, and there are no appeals process. The mother is the prosecuter, the jury and the judge.

    Assisted suicide has proven in other countries to be abused more often than used as intended. Put a guilt trip on grandma about our finacial woes and she may decide to help the kids and she will go through with assisted suicide for the insurance and/or will. If the guilt trip does not work, pay off the practitioner. Depressed, take this you will not be depressed again, your child will never live a normal life and you can not afford the costly treatment, so be merciful and let him rest.

    Death penalty, if someone takes anothers life (repeatedly), for their own joy (convienance store clerk shot in the back) (Tookie Williams), or to derive sexual pleasure (Ted Bundy) and the evidence leads a jury of peers to conclude that the person comitted the crime without a shadow of a doubt, and the judge agrees that the death penalty is appropriate so be it, but quicker than we do it.
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