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  1. #101  
    And so it goes in The Land of Cheese, Watches and Gnomes

    According to Amnesty International:

    There were further allegations of ill-treatment, use of excessive force and racist abuse by Swiss police officers. An amendment to the asylum law impeded the effective exercise by many foreign nationals of the right to seek asylum. Swiss government proposals to make further amendments to the law, greatly restricting access to the asylum determination process, risked violating the UN Refugee Convention. Domestic violence against women remained a significant problem.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  2. #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    And so it goes in The Land of Cheese, Watches and Gnomes

    According to Amnesty International:

    There were further allegations of ill-treatment, use of excessive force and racist abuse by Swiss police officers. An amendment to the asylum law impeded the effective exercise by many foreign nationals of the right to seek asylum. Swiss government proposals to make further amendments to the law, greatly restricting access to the asylum determination process, risked violating the UN Refugee Convention. Domestic violence against women remained a significant problem.
    Gnomes? Really, Clairegrrl, you depict yourself in a very unfavourable way. Can you really not post without personal attack?

    Now, regarding the factual content: I notice you did not reveal a source, which normally is a sign that there is something to hide. Indeed, also in this case: When looking up the place you copied the above, it becomes more than clear that Amnesty has the same sort of complaint for each and every nation in the world - which is to be expected because no country is perfect. I appreciate Amnesty pointing out aspects where we can get better.

    You can find Amnesty's view on the US here: http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/usa-summary-eng

    Not surprisingly, it is much more unpleasant and much longer than the one on Switzerland, though I am not sure this was the point you were trying to make.

    United States of America
    Covering events from January - December 2004

    Hundreds of detainees continued to be held without charge or trial at the US naval base in Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. Thousands of people were detained during US military and security operations in Iraq and Afghanistan and routinely denied access to their families and lawyers.

    Military investigations were initiated or conducted into allegations of torture and ill-treatment of detainees by US personnel in Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq and into reports of deaths in custody and ill-treatment by US forces elsewhere in Iraq, and in Afghanistan and Guantánamo. Evidence came to light that the US administration had sanctioned interrogation techniques that violated the UN Convention against Torture. Pre-trial military commission hearings opened in Guantánamo but were suspended pending a US court ruling.

    In the USA, more than 40 people died after being struck by police tasers, raising concern about the safety of such weapons. The death penalty continued to be imposed and carried out... (etc., etc.)
    http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/usa-summary-eng
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  3. #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Gnomes? Really, Clairegrrl, you depict yourself in a very unfavourable way. Can you really not post without personal attack?

    Now, regarding the factual content: I notice you did not reveal a source, which normally is a sign that there is something to hide. Indeed, also in this case: When looking up the place you copied the above, it becomes more than clear that Amnesty has the same sort of complaint for each and every nation in the world - which is to be expected because no country is perfect. I appreciate Amnesty pointing out aspects where we can get better.

    You can find Amnesty's view on the US here: http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/usa-summary-eng

    Not surprisingly, it is much more unpleasant and much longer than the one on Switzerland, though I am not sure this was the point you were trying to make.
    I think you could consider it a personal attack if you were a gnome, so if you are, I am so sorry.

    Seems that you shouldnt worry so much about the US in that you have some very deep seeded problems in your own counrty. Problems that seem to reach to the very top. You change your laws, your constitution and the problems still exist. Direct democracy, power in the hands of the people, but in the area of minorty rights, everything I read shows that Switzerland has a very dismal record.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  4. #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Nice try, but you're not responding to my point. Rendition is *not* torture and treating them as analogous is disingenuous.
    The elected representatives of your country do not seem to share your confidence in the humane treatment of prisoners kept abroad. Why else would they feel the need of establishing new laws targeted at US agents torturing outside of the US?

    It's a nice example of what I have always felt: the US are quite ok, but your current administration isn't. One day you will realize, too (in case you haven't already and just don't want to admit it here, which I cound understand very well ).

    House backs McCain torture measure
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  5. #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    I suck. I had Chinese for dinner
    Shame on you! How old were they?
  6. #106  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    daThomas, if you are really against inhuman torture of people, then why do you continue to post in this thread!
    Now thats funny!
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    #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    So according to you the only difference is that the CIA is unable to keep their operations secret? I consider your statement CIA bashing, shame on you!
    Uh no, here refers to this thread/post/board
  8. #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    The elected representatives of your country do not seem to share your confidence in the humane treatment of prisoners kept abroad. Why else would they feel the need of establishing new laws targeted at US agents torturing outside of the US?

    It's a nice example of what I have always felt: the US are quite ok, but your current administration isn't. One day you will realize, too (in case you haven't already and just don't want to admit it here, which I cound understand very well ).
    Politicians posing for holy pictures - and evidence of nothing. A large majority of our representatives also oppose gay marriage. Do you accept the rightness of that opposition simply because most of them will vote one way? I assume not.

    McCain himself admits torture would be permissable in some circumstances.

    At any rate, the transport and interrogation (even "strenuous" interrogation) of a person is not torture - despite claims in this thread to the contrary. It is not the policy of this country to routinely torture suspects and nothing you've said so far has made the case that it is.
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  9. #109  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    It's the proof that there is no way he/she can say anything against my line of argumentation. It's what you do when you have no argument, nothing left of any factual value, the last resort of the helpless. I take it as a compliment.
    Believe me, Google Barbie, it wasn't meant as a compliment.

    But I figure if you can continue to poison threads and move everything completely off topic with your own twisted personal agenda, and show no respect for the topic that was at hand, then hey, anything goes. You've already thrown out the forum rules about keeping threads on topic, so you don't get to complain when it gets a bit heated.

    But as far as debate goes, where's your witty retort about legalized suicide in Gnomeville? Haven't found a link at www.extremist-european-views.com yet on how the US leads the world in state-supported murder? But please, don't bore me with how the death penalty is the same thing. Try to come up with something original. I know it will be difficult, but try to form a thought on your own.
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    #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    So, in your view, why does the CIA kidnap a German in Macedonia and fly him to Afghanistan, and not to Langley or some other CIA base in the US? Is it because the heating costs in Afghanistan are lower, or is it because they can do things to people there which would be illegal in the US, if they feel like it?

    The heating costs would have to be substantially lower, because flying people around in an almost empty Boeing 737 (registrations N313P and N4476S) and other planes is not cheap.
    There you go again with your rendition of what happened instead of sticking to the facts as they were reported. I know it is difficult for you to comprehend, but if you read the cite again you notice that the CIA did capture/kidnap/hogtie anyone, as a matter of fact the individual stated he believed he was turned over to CIA operatives.

    Statements like the above is why no one takes anything you say seriosuly.
  11. #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Uh no, here refers to this thread/post/board
    Remember, he likes to deal in semantics and circular logic.

    Like how rendition = torture.

    Interrogation = torture.

    Asking someone a strongly worded question = torture.

    Scowling at a suspect during the arrest = torture.
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  12. #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    It's a nice example of what I have always felt: the US are quite ok, but your current administration isn't. One day you will realize, too (in case you haven't already and just don't want to admit it here, which I cound understand very well ).
    Actually, since there've been no attacks in the US since 9/11 and the Middle East has never before has as good an opportunity to embrace freedom, I'll be looking forward to receiving your apology once this administration's foreign policy vision has been fully realized.
    Current: iPhone 3G
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  13. #113  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Actually, since there've been no attacks in the US since 9/11 and the Middle East has never before has as good an opportunity to embrace freedom, I'll be looking forward to receiving your apology once this administration's foreign policy vision has been fully realized.
    Ha!

    I wouldn't hold your breath if I were you.

    He'll come up with a have dozen other reasons why the Bush administration failed their goals, like how they "allowed" the tsunami and Katrina to cause so much damage.

    With the extremists, there's always something.
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    #114  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    Ha!

    I wouldn't hold your breath if I were you.

    He'll come up with a have dozen other reasons why the Bush administration failed their goals, like how they "allowed" the tsunami and Katrina to cause so much damage.

    With the extremists, there's always something.
    I am waiting for the replies to these stories

    http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/12/15/D8EGOP7GB.html

    "The Iraqi people are showing the world that all people _ of all backgrounds _ want to be able to choose their own leaders and live in freedom. And we're encouraged by what appears to be a large turnout throughout Iraq," said White House spokesman Scott McClellan.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...500344_pf.html
    Consumer Prices Plunge; Production Jumps

    By MARTIN CRUTSINGER
    The Associated Press
    Thursday, December 15, 2005; 10:43 AM

    WASHINGTON -- A record plunge in the cost of gasoline pushed consumer prices down by the largest amount in 56 years in November while industrial production posted a solid gain.

    The new government reports Thursday provided further evidence that the economy is shaking off the blows delivered by a string of devastating hurricanes.

    The only reason I want to see the replies of the naysayers is that I need a good laugh today.
  15. #115  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    Shame on you! How old were they?
    Old enough dammit...in some parts of the country.
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  16. #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    I am waiting for the replies to these stories

    http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/12/15/D8EGOP7GB.html

    "The Iraqi people are showing the world that all people _ of all backgrounds _ want to be able to choose their own leaders and live in freedom. And we're encouraged by what appears to be a large turnout throughout Iraq," said White House spokesman Scott McClellan.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...500344_pf.html
    Consumer Prices Plunge; Production Jumps

    By MARTIN CRUTSINGER
    The Associated Press
    Thursday, December 15, 2005; 10:43 AM

    WASHINGTON -- A record plunge in the cost of gasoline pushed consumer prices down by the largest amount in 56 years in November while industrial production posted a solid gain.

    The new government reports Thursday provided further evidence that the economy is shaking off the blows delivered by a string of devastating hurricanes.

    The only reason I want to see the replies of the naysayers is that I need a good laugh today.
    I doubt you'll get any sort of response from Google Barbie. His browser doesn't seem to be able to point in any sort of pro-US direction. I'm still waiting on a response about how great the Swiss are because they allow the murder of the infirmed.

    Rather than address your post about how successful today's Iraqi elections have been, I'm sure he'll point you to the al-Jazeera article about the 2 disenfranchised Sunni muslims who feel the elections are a sham. And how that means the entire operation is a complete, total failure.

    You know, a typical response.
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  17. #117  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Old enough dammit...in some parts of the country.
    When did you move to Kentucky?
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  18. #118  
    Friggin' American GI bastards....
    They bound them hand and foot, covered their heads and photographed them while some were almost or completely naked. They then held them in the centres’ common rooms for around five hours. One man was gagged with adhesive tape.
    ...oh wait, not US Troops? But Swiss Police????

    http://web.amnesty.org/report2004/che-summary-eng
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  19. #119  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    When did you move to Kentucky?
    Well, I did spend several years off and on at Ft. Campbell, KY.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  20. #120  
    Anyone who doesn't believe prisoners have been abused at the hands of U.S. soldiers and CIA agents, in Iraq, Guantanimo, other middle eastern countries, and maybe in Europe, lives in a fantasy world bounded on one side by the White House and on the other by Fox news. Where simple "abuse" ends and torture begins is an argument that could go on forever, but the U.S. has no high moral ground to stand on in this regard.

    For the adminstration to continue to claim that one of the reasons we needed to topple Saddam was because he tortured his people, while we turn our backs on torture by U.S. operatives and our allies, is the height of hypocrisy.

    Supporters of U.S. policy say we need to torture people for intelligence reason. We're fighting to save our way of life, they say. But guess what? That's exactly the reason Saddam tortured prisoners, to gain intelligence that protected his goverment. How are we morally superior? And speaking of Iraqi torture, it seems our fun-loving, democratic Iraqi friends have been torturing THEIR prisoners, too. But since that group of torturers likes us, I guess it's not as bad as when the last Iraqi government did it.

    We cuddle up to regimes like China, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and others that engage in torture and murder their politicial opponents, with no apparent qualms. But we draw the line at Saddam. Somehow, the idea of sending someone to be tortured in an Egyptian prison, instead of in an Iraqi prision, doesn't seem like progress.

    Even if none of this sways you, we should avoid torture because it doesn't accomplish what we want. It's been demonstrated over and over again that people who are suffering will say whatever their interogator wants in order to make the pain stop. That's why confessions obtained under duress are frequently thrown out of court. And the idea that the detainees in Guantanamo still have any usefull information, years after being removed from the action, is ludicrous.

    On a similar note, Bush also said we invaded Iraq because Saddam killed so many Iraqi citizens. But he now says about 30,000 Iraqis have died as a result of the U.S. invasion. Other estimates range as high as 100,000, but what's a factor of 3 amoung friends.
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