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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    So it's OK with you that the Chinese government takes, without compensation, the land of farmers for economic development(which led to the above-mentioned gunning down of said farmers)??? It's OK with you that China uses prison and child labor in its factories??? It's OK with you that China has no respect for rules of copyright or intellectual property???
    Well, they do pay $.15 an hour for a 16 hour day with no breaks. That's probably what he meant when he asked about economic rules being broken. I mean, those people have jobs! They should consider themselves to be fortunate.

    They're not being gunned down in Tiannamen Square or anything.
    I'm back!
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    No, all of that is not ok at all. I am not sure though these things have a major influence on the economic power of China. Still, they are inexusable.
    So then why no comment on that, when that was what the thread was about? Why did you feel the need, again, to spew your anti-US venom by saying that we can't criticize because we might have kidnapped a suspected terrorist?

    Why couldn't you just stay on topic?
    I'm back!
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Yawn. The usual blah. Attack the messenger instead of arguing about the message. Boring.Who hasn't? No police force is perfect. The question is whether it is institutionalized or not - which it isn't here. Our authrities don't fly foreigners to far away places in order to use "innovative" interrogation techniques which apparently can't be used at home.
    Sorry, but I wasnt attacking you. Just pointing out how morally bankrupt and hypocritical your government and many of your institutions are.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Without e.g. China as well as Saudia Arabia and other OPEC countries financing your deficit (both trade and budget), your government and your ecomomy would be in big difficulties fast. You depend on each other.
    Right. No one would by US Treasury bonds if it weren't for the Chinese and Saudis.
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  5.    #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Shall we also discuss how France has treated Algerians throught that country's sordid colonial history??? It's just as relevant as clulup's post here.
    Are they flying them to foreign torture site?
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    #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Are they flying them to foreign torture site?
    Please do tell (facts only) of the foreign torture sites. If the US is guilty of this as a nation, or if you are convinced this is the case then according to your intial post should we stop buying Made in the USA products?
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Are they flying them to foreign torture site?
    No. They just tortured and murdered them right there in Algeria.
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  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    What do you mean regarding ecomic rules broken?
    Boy, I go to bed for 6 hours and come back to find I missed all the action!

    Anyways, I made two points in addition to their humanitarian concerns....China's unprecedented military build up and their tactics within the international economic community (two big ones are artificially keeping their currency inflation low, and at partly a by product creating huge trade deficits around the globe). Each point could be easily Googled for more detail, but here is a single article that touches on both of these points that I made:

    Not only has China (search) become an exporting giant, dumping cheap goods and creating enormous trade deficits all over the globe, but it continues to reach out to historically oppressive regimes for trade, economic partnerships and greater influence on the world political stage, policy watchers say.

    A number of lawmakers, former ambassadors and foreign policy experts who testified in a Washington hearing late last month asserted that the United States needs to wise up to the fact that China plans to become a superpower militarily, economically and politically — by any means necessary.

    "China kind of burst on the scene with a presence that has been frightening to many people who hadn't realized how wide this reach ... is," Rep. Randy Forbes (search), R-Va., chairman of the new House China Caucus (search), told FOXNews.com.

    Forbes and others recently testified before the U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission about the objectives China is pursuing in the international community.

    China is beefing up its military arsenal to the tune of $90 billion, according to the U.S. Defense Department. The Pentagon last month reported that sum as the amount China is putting annually into its military budget to expand its influence. While that number is just a fraction of what the U.S. spends on its armed services, officials in Beijing dispute the Pentagon's claims.

    Economically, China's state-run newspaper reports that the country's economy held a 9.5 percent growth in the second quarter and is poised to continue strong throughout 2005. In July, Beijing decided to peg the yuan to a basket of currencies rather than the dollar, which had kept its currency artificially low and allowed it to compete unfairly in the world goods market, U.S. analysts say. The U.S.-based China Currency Coalition said based on data from the first six months of 2005, the U.S. trade deficit with China is on track to hit $210 billion this year — a whopping 30 percent increase over 2004.

    While the Bush administration engages China on these matters, the U.S.-China Commission has turned its focus in part to the political alliances China has been forming with governments that have been targeted by international critics for continued human rights violations, rampant corruption and state-sponsored terrorism.

    -----------------

    In June, Zimbabwe dictator Robert Mugabe ordered the bulldozing of 700,000 people's homes that he declared illegal. The government of Sudan has been blamed for the murder of more than 180,000 civilians in Darfur and the displacement of nearly 3 million people who now live in refugee camps. Both government actions have been called crimes against humanity.

    "What I think is disconcerting is the willingness of China to not only help but to defend rogue regimes," said Princeton Lyman, who served as ambassador to both Nigeria and South Africa in the Reagan, George H.W. Bush and Clinton administrations.

    "China has in effect inhibited the U.N. from imposing sanctions on Sudan, and in Zimbabwe is helping to bail out a regime that is repressive and is destroying the country," Lyman said.

    ----------------

    More recently, the Communist country is blanketing the continent with its own state-linked enterprises, often undercutting bids from domestic companies and investing heavily in natural resources like oil, gas, minerals, fish and timber, which the Chinese are hungry for back home, Shinn said. With oil prices on the rise, the impact could give China an artificial advantage by allowing it to go around the global market.

    FULL STORY HERE
    More on China's Economic practices:
    2005 Annual Report
    The U.S.-China Commission announced the release of its 2005 Annual Report to Congress, which was approved by a bipartisan consensus vote of 11 to 1. Based on the Commission's extensive series of hearings and research, the Report concludes that "a number of the current trends in U.S.-China relations have negative implications for our long-term economic and national security interests, and therefore that U.S. policies in these areas are in need of urgent attention and course corrections."

    LINK: http://www.uscc.gov/

    More on Military:

    Chinese General Threatens Use of A-Bombs if U.S. Intrudes

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/15/in...a/15china.html

    (since this site requires a registration I quoted the whole thing below)

    BEIJING, Friday, July 15 - China should use nuclear weapons against the United States if the American military intervenes in any conflict over Taiwan, a senior Chinese military official said Thursday.

    "If the Americans draw their missiles and position-guided ammunition on to the target zone on China's territory, I think we will have to respond with nuclear weapons," the official, Maj. Gen. Zhu Chenghu, said at an official briefing.

    General Zhu, considered a hawk, stressed that his comments reflected his personal views and not official policy. Beijing has long insisted that it will not initiate the use of nuclear weapons in any conflict.

    But in extensive comments to a visiting delegation of correspondents based in Hong Kong, General Zhu said he believed that the Chinese government was under internal pressure to change its "no first use" policy and to make clear that it would employ the most powerful weapons at its disposal to defend its claim over Taiwan.

    "War logic" dictates that a weaker power needs to use maximum efforts to defeat a stronger rival, he said, speaking in fluent English. "We have no capability to fight a conventional war against the United States," General Zhu said. "We can't win this kind of war."

    Whether or not the comments signal a shift in Chinese policy, they come at a sensitive time in relations between China and the United States.

    The Pentagon is preparing the release of a long-delayed report on the Chinese military that some experts say will warn that China could emerge as a strategic rival to the United States. National security concerns have also been a major issue in the $18.5 billion bid by Cnooc Ltd., a major Chinese oil and gas company, to purchase the Unocal Corporation, the American energy concern.

    China has had atomic bombs since 1964 and currently has a small arsenal of land- and sea-based nuclear-tipped missiles that can reach the United States, according to most Western intelligence estimates. Some Pentagon officials have argued that China has been expanding the size and sophistication of its nuclear bombs and delivery systems, while others argue that Beijing has done little more than maintain a minimal but credible deterrent against a nuclear attack.

    Beijing has said repeatedly that it would use military force to prevent Taiwan from becoming a formally independent country. President Bush has made clear that the United States would defend Taiwan.

    Many military analysts have assumed that any battle over Taiwan would be localized, with both China and the United States taking care to ensure that it would not expand into a general war between the two powers.

    But the comments by General Zhu suggest that at least some elements of the military are prepared to widen the conflict, perhaps to persuade the United States that it could no more successfully fight a limited war against China than it could against the former Soviet Union.

    "If the Americans are determined to interfere, then we will be determined to respond," he said. "We Chinese will prepare ourselves for the destruction of all the cities east of Xian. Of course the Americans will have to be prepared that hundreds of cities will be destroyed by the Chinese."

    General Zhu's threat is not the first of its kind from a senior Chinese military official. In 1995, Xiong Guangkai, who is now the deputy chief of the general staff of the People's Liberation Army, told Chas W. Freeman, a former Pentagon official, that China would consider using nuclear weapons in a Taiwan conflict. Mr. Freeman quoted Mr. Xiong as saying that Americans should worry more about Los Angeles than Taipei.

    Foreign Ministry officials did not immediately respond to requests for comment about General Zhu's remarks.

    General Zhu said he had recently expressed his views to former American officials, including Mr. Freeman and Adm. Dennis C. Blair, the former commander in chief of the United States Pacific Command.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 12/14/2005 at 11:47 AM.
  9.    #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Please do tell (facts only) of the foreign torture sites. If the US is guilty of this as a nation, or if you are convinced this is the case then according to your intial post should we stop buying Made in the USA products?
    I think voting the instigators of this policy out of office will suffice here.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    I think voting the instigators of this policy out of office will suffice here.
    I think ANY reason to vote Bush and "all his croonies" out of office would suffice for you!
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    I think voting the instigators of this policy out of office will suffice here.
    So, no facts, then?
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  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Boy, I go to bed for 6 hours and come back to find I missed all the action!

    Not only has China (search) become an exporting giant, dumping cheap goods and creating enormous trade deficits all over the globe, ...
    Switzerland imports a hell of a lot from China, too. But we export even more, so we don't have a trade deficit. Of course your products have to be exceptionally good in order to be able to export from a country with a very high salary level to a country like China.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  13.    #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    I think ANY reason to vote Bush and "all his croonies" out of office would suffice for you!
    You know, there are just SO MANY reasons, it's hard to pick just one.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Switzerland imports a hell of a lot from China, too. But we export even more, so we don't have a trade deficit. Of course your products have to be exceptionally good in order to be able to export from a country with a very high salary level to a country like China.
    You know, the really funny part of the whole "clulup phenomenon" is that Switzerland is arguably one of the most sensible (*cough* conservative *cough*) nations in Europe.
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  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Of course your [Swiss] products have to be exceptionally good in order to be able to export from a country with a very high salary level to a country like China.
    Naw, it's just that your country has a monopoly on that cheese with holes in it.
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  16.    #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    So, no facts, then?
    Rendition is fully factual. I'm not going to waste my time citing something that's been fully disclosed publicly. I would also point you to the Frontline torture episode for your info-tainment.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Rendition is fully factual. I'm not going to waste my time citing something that's been fully disclosed publicly. I would also point you to the Frontline torture episode for your info-tainment.
    I declare a BS / misdirection alert!

    Rendition was not the question. "Foreign torture sites" was. Are you saying the Frontline documentary details where all the "torture sites" are and what was done there? I apologize for not knowing more about the Frontline episode - PBS isn't my first choice for unbiased news.
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  18.    #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    I declare a BS / misdirection alert!

    Rendition was not the question. "Foreign torture sites" was. Are you saying the Frontline documentary details where all the "torture sites" are and what was done there?
    Rendition is equal to the cia doing the torture themselves. It's just using a middleman to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    I apologize for not knowing more about the Frontline episode - PBS isn't my first choice for unbiased news.
    I'm sorry you don't watch FrontLine. You're denying yourself a seriously quality investigative source.

    How about the Christian Science Monitor?
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Rendition is equal to the cia doing the torture themselves. It's just using a middleman to do it.
    Rendition is not torture. It is the capture of an individual in a (cooperative) country outside the US and the subsequent interrogation of that individual in a 3rd country. Whether the person captured is tortured during that interrogation is currently unknown. Whether interrogation techniques such as water-boarding are torture or not is also a grey area.
    I'm sorry you don't watch FrontLine. You're denying yourself a seriously quality investigative source.

    How about the Christian Science Monitor?
    I do watch Frontline, however as I said, it's not my first source for unbiased reporting. Ditto the CSM.

    We are pretty far afield of your original topic, however.
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  20. cardio's Avatar
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    #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Rendition is fully factual. I'm not going to waste my time citing something that's been fully disclosed publicly. I would also point you to the Frontline torture episode for your info-tainment.
    Ahh so you admit that you decided to change the word rendition into the word torture for your own delight. I did not know you worked for one of the MSM outlets. Sensationalism right.
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