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  1.    #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    As a nation we see it in our own self-interest to promote in as many ways as possible the expansion of freedom and democracy. Thus was it in the 1940's, thus is it today.
    As you say, self-interest. There's nothing bad about a nation following it's interests (within limits of course), but what can become a bit tedious is when you start behaving as if everything you do happened because you wanted to help others. Take the war in Iraq: it was started because you felt you had to protect the US from Saddam's terrorism and his WMDs (allegedly, let's not talk about the oil which is an issue in the region). That it also meant regime change was a by-product, not the driving force behind it - but in your post above you have already started beating your chest and said "we have just liberated Iraq". It's true, you got rid of Saddam, but not because you felt you had to free the Iraqis.

    Did the US oppose the USSR because they felt like protecting Europe or out of self-interest? Same thing as with WWII...

    Take the opposite, issues which are not important for US interests: How about Somalia? No oil, no strategic importance for the US - your resolve did not last long there, did it? (Not that anybody did better, don't get me wrong)

    Take foreign aid for countries in Africa and others which are not of political or strategic importance: No western country contributes less of its riches than the US... US foreign aid is focused on countries like Israel, Egypt and Pakistan, those which are of importance for your interests.

    Again, other nations don't behave any better, they just follow their interests to a large degree. But in the case of the US, you seem to expect a lot of gratitude from others when you follow your interests (WWII, Cold War, Iraq), and those interests happen to align with the interests of others.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  2. #62  
    If a higher ranking manager was after a promotion at work and in the course of achieving his goal, he saved me from being fired, you better believe that I would be grateful to him.
  3.    #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    OK. Back to the facts:

    Here's a snippet from the Washington Post story about this:I have two questions for you:

    1) How many people do you supposed might have been saved at the cost of at most (according to this story) "a couple dozen" people being wrongfully held and later released?
    2) Who was president of the US when the above quoted statement was made?

    You made this relevant with your statementuring the Golden Age of Clinton, when by your account we were loved and respected throughout the world, we apparently also carried out these "renditions" of suspected terrorists. That they were done and increased after the attacks of 9/11 was a consequence of being at war. Why were we doing this prior to 9/11 is a larger and more interesting question to me.
    I don't totally rule out that renditions can be justifiable in some exceptional cases. What I find distrubing is the carelessness and incompetence with which they conduct operations which obviously violate the most basic standards of any legal system and human rights.
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  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    As you say, self-interest. There's nothing bad about a nation following it's interests (within limits of course), but what can become a bit tedious is when you start behaving as if everything you do happened because you wanted to help others. Take the war in Iraq: it was started because you felt you had to protect the US from Saddam's terrorism and his WMDs (allegedly, let's not talk about the oil which is an issue in the region). That it also meant regime change was a by-product, not the driving force behind it - but in your post above you have already started beating your chest and said "we have just liberated Iraq". It's true, you got rid of Saddam, but not because you felt you had to free the Iraqis.

    Did the US oppose the USSR because they felt like protecting Europe or out of self-interest? Same thing as with WWII...

    Take the opposite, issues which are not important for US interests: How about Somalia? No oil, no strategic importance for the US - your resolve did not last long there, did it? (Not that anybody did better, don't get me wrong)

    Take foreign aid for countries in Africa and others which are not of political or strategic importance: No western country contributes less of its riches than the US... US foreign aid is focused on countries like Israel, Egypt and Pakistan, those which are of importance for your interests.

    Again, other nations don't behave any better, they just follow their interests to a large degree. But in the case of the US, you seem to expect a lot of gratitude from others when you follow your interests (WWII, Cold War, Iraq), and those interests happen to align with the interests of others.
    I agree completely, 100%, with everything you write here. However, the difference is that the US most always aligns it's interests with subjective good being done. In other words, we don't go invading countries in wars of conquest. Conquering Iraq in order to take its oil wealth would clearly be in our national economic interest. We did no such thing (despite what many anti-US commentators seem to believe). We invaded and changed the Iraqi regime first and foremost because we deemed in in our national security interest to do so - but also this was believed to be in the long term interest of the Iraqis and the Middle East as a whole (for the moment, let's not argue about whether this is so - for this discussion, that's beside the point). The Iraqi people are free as a (intended) side-effect. So what if the primary motivation was US national security interest?

    We (justifiably) expect gratitude because we have sacrificed much for the sake of others. We obviously do things in our own interest - however we do them in a way that is intended to achieve benefits and freedom for those who ally with us. Historically with great powers this has not always been the case.

    The Soviet Union also had national interests during the Cold War. I think the people of Poland and Czechoslovakia and the rest of Eastern Europe would tell you they would rather have been on the Western side of the iron curtain, and would have been grateful for the protection provided by the US regardless what our primary motivation might have been.

    Since when does something have to be provided purely out of altruism in order to cause the recipient to feel gratitude? What of all the private charity given by US citizens (which dwarfs charity by any other country, BTW)? This is given freely by Americans without having to be extracted from them as tax revenue. How generous is the European whose government takes his money and gives it to others in his name? How does he compare to the American who opened his wallet of his own free will and gave?
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  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    I don't totally rule out that renditions can be justifiable in some exceptional cases. What I find distrubing is the carelessness and incompetence with which they conduct operations which obviously violate the most basic standards of any legal system and human rights.
    The United States was attacked on its own soil and around 3000 of its citizens were killed in one day. If the extent of the overreaction to this unprovoked attack was the mistaken abduction, detention, mistreatment and eventual release of a couple dozen people throughout the world, well... I think that we could have done far more damage in our rage, don't you agree?
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  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by murrayalex
    I personally am very glad that the US became involved in WW2 and there is no doubt that their entry was a major contributing factor to the allies winning. However, let's not pretend that the US single handedly won it. Us little Brits managed to keep nasty Mr Hitler at bay for quite a while virtually on our own. Let's just try and get along here, I thought the US and UK were meant to be chums. Seems like it to me anyway and at the end of the day, quite frankly I'd rather have the US on my side than against me....
    The Brits have been the best friend the U.S. has had in the entire world for decades, maybe since the revolutionary war. Their culture of democracy, civility, law, and morals has been a shining light to the world for centuries. They were also tougher than nails in their fight against the Nazis. In WWII, the U.S. and the Brits needed each other to ensure victory.

    [Begin "God Save the Queen" music] If there was no America, and I had to choose citizenship in any other country in the world, I would chose to be Brittish! (well, or Puerto Rican - I could have a great time there)
    Last edited by heberman; 12/08/2005 at 05:14 PM.
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  7.    #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    I agree completely, 100%, with everything you write here.
    Cool. I agree with you, too, maybe with the exception of the importance of Iraqi oil in the whole story. I don't mean stealing it, just having more control, like in Saudi Arabia.
    How generous is the European whose government takes his money and gives it to others in his name? How does he compare to the American who opened his wallet of his own free will and gave?
    Aid money both from public AND from private sources is much higher in Europe than in the US (per capita/per GDP, you name it). The source is quoted in some Tsunami thread here, in case you don't believe me.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  8.    #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    The Brits have been the best friend to the U.S. has had in the entire world for decades, maybe since the revolutionary war.
    Geez, and even your best friend's approval rates went down from 89 % to 55 %. Lucky Bush won't have another term, or you might lose the majority there, too.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  9. #69  
    Hope so regarding GDP, the EU has 150 million more people and it's not a country. Regarding per capita, I don't believe it, would need to see a non-left leaning website/paper to believe it.


    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Aid money both from public AND from private sources is much higher in Europe than in the US (per capita/per GDP, you name it). The source is quoted in some Tsunami thread here, in case you don't believe me.
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Geez, and even your best friend's approval rates went down from 89 % to 55 %. Lucky Bush won't have another term, or you might lose the majority there, too.
    I guarantee you that the US will elect someone that shares Bush' views on how to fight global terrorism in the next election. That person will not be Howard Dean or Hillary Clinton. While I have nothing personal against Europeans (except for France), they are not known for wanting to fight for their freedom (except for the British). For the most part they were happy to appease Hitler until it was too late and they needed the US to bail their asses out.
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    The Brits have been the best friend the U.S. has had in the entire world for decades, maybe since the revolutionary war. Their culture of democracy, civility, law, and morals has been a shining light to the world for centuries. They were also tougher than nails in their fight against the Nazis. In WWII, the U.S. and the Brits needed each other to ensure victory.

    [Begin "God Save the Queen" music] If there was no America, and I had to choose citizenship in any other country in the world, I would chose to be Brittish! (well, or Puerto Rican - I could have a great time there)
    well said Sir !! And here's to the future...
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    #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Come on, Insertion, I am sure you can tell the difference between a thread in which plain, undisputed facts are stated and others are invited to share their thoughts (like this one), and a thread with the sole purpose of denigrating others in a silly way (by writing extremely intelligent things like "SCREW.EU", as suggested by Cardio).
    Ahhh poor clulup got hims feelings hurt.

    The game was to make a word play on EU (you). If you can't take it don't dish it out (hillbilly president). We have pride in our diversity, the last two presidents are from the deep south so I guess they both are hillbillies (or maybe mountain Williams since they both have degrees from prestigious universities). Prior to that we have had peanut farmers as presidents, movie stars as presidents, again diversity, you do not have to be born into royalty to have an impact on our nation.

    Everyone hates a winner, hence your non-stop, whining about the greatest country in the world (the UNITED States of America).

    Back to the original complaint of yours, as I stated before, you added your comments to the individuals story to make it sound worse. The article you referenced did not say he was dropped off on a roadside somewhere, it says he was returned to Germany. He was picked up by a third country, questioned for over 3 weeks, turned over to who he believes were CIA, held for 4 months and released. As I said if he was tortured then those individuals need to be held accountable.
  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Back to the original complaint of yours, as I stated before, you added your comments to the individuals story to make it sound worse. The article you referenced did not say he was dropped off on a roadside somewhere, it says he was returned to Germany. He was picked up by a third country, questioned for over 3 weeks, turned over to who he believes were CIA, held for 4 months and released. As I said if he was tortured then those individuals need to be held accountable.
    I noticed the difference in what the story said and what Clulup said also. Where did he get the "dropped off on a roadside" reference? You didn't make it up, Clulup, did you?
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  14.    #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    I noticed the difference in what the story said and what Clulup said also. Where did he get the "dropped off on a roadside" reference? You didn't make it up, Clulup, did you?
    You know better, don't you? I didn't reference the Washington Post article I also read because I am not sure whether you need to register before you can read it. It's here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...301476_pf.html

    In case you don't get access:
    Several intelligence and diplomatic officials said Macedonia did not want the CIA to bring Masri back inside the country, so the agency arranged for him to be flown to Albania. Masri said he was taken to a narrow country road at dusk. When they let him off, "They asked me not to look back when I started walking," Masri said. "I was afraid they would shoot me in the back."

    He said he was quickly met by three armed men. They drove all night, arriving in the morning at Mother Teresa Airport in Tirana. Masri said he was escorted onto the plane, past all the security checkpoints, by an Albanian.

    Masri has been reunited with his children and wife, who had moved the family to Lebanon because she did not know where her husband was. Unemployed and lonely, Masri says neither his German nor Arab friends dare associate with him because of the publicity.

    Meanwhile, a German prosecutor continues to work Masri's case. A Macedonia bus driver has confirmed that Masri was taken away by border guards on the date he gave investigators. A forensic analysis of Masri's hair showed he was malnourished during the period he says he was in the prison. Flight logs show a plane registered to a CIA front company flew out of Macedonia on the day Masri says he went to Afghanistan.

    Masri can find few words to explain his ordeal. "I have very bad feelings" about the United States, he said. "I think it's just like in the Arab countries: arresting people, treating them inhumanly and less than that, and with no rights and no laws."
    There's much more, it's worth reading. Also note that Rice or the CIA don't deny the story happened as described.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  15. #75  
    I seem to be "preselected" on many of my flights. I wonder if I am on the terrorist watch list. Hopefully, the CIA won't fly me to Albania.
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  16.    #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Ahhh poor clulup got hims feelings hurt.

    The game was to make a word play on EU (you).
    Not in the least. I only tried to explain the difference between the discussion started in this thread and a mindless "game" which consists off nothing else but name calling.
    If you can't take it don't dish it out (hillbilly president). We have pride in our diversity, the last two presidents are from the deep south so I guess they both are hillbillies (or maybe mountain Williams since they both have degrees from prestigious universities). Prior to that we have had peanut farmers as presidents, movie stars as presidents, again diversity, you do not have to be born into royalty to have an impact on our nation.
    I didn't use the word hillbilly because Bush is from the south, but because I consider him an "unsophisticated person" (which is what hillbilly means). It may come as a surprise to you, but indeed I see strong evidence that Bush junior (NOT Bush senior, BIG difference here!) knows far to little about the complexities of the big wide world outside of the US to handle foreign politics in a useful way. There is little doubt that a large proportion of Bush senior's former team thinks the same, even though they are not left wing lunatics. Bush junior did a lot to ruin the reputation of the US all over the world, despite tremendous sympathy and support after 9/11.

    As to the rest, you are really wasting your time by pretending that I am against Southerners in general. I think Bill Clinton is a great person, intelligent, with a lot of personality (and some problems which I consider private). BTW I went to school in Alabama for a while, and I had a very good time there.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  17. #77  
    ...Bush junior did a lot to ruin the reputation of the US all over the world, despite tremendous sympathy and support after 9/11...
    What things has he done to ruin the reputation of the US? What was the reputation before and after?
  18. #78  
    Protesters Say Police in China Killed Up to 20. No outrage since it's not the USA.

    where's the outrage?


    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Human rights? Why does euro liberal point to USA? How bout China? How bout the terrorists who today murdered (probably took a knife and moved it back and forth across the neck of the American till his head fell off) an American?

    Again this thread has got to be CLOSED - but I'll say one more time...Macedonia arrested what they called a terrorist, called CIA to pick him up - they did. They sent him to AFGH. and realized they screwed up and freed him. I think I'd rather be him than the American who had his head sawed off.

    btw, many of us in the 'South' are only strengthened when self-righteous 'intellectuals' call one of us a hillbilly.
  19. cardio's Avatar
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    #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Not in the least. I only tried to explain the difference between the discussion started in this thread and a mindless "game" which consists off nothing else but name calling.I didn't use the word hillbilly because Bush is from the south, but because I consider him an "unsophisticated person" (which is what hillbilly means). It may come as a surprise to you, but indeed I see strong evidence that Bush junior (NOT Bush senior, BIG difference here!) knows far to little about the complexities of the big wide world outside of the US to handle foreign politics in a useful way. There is little doubt that a large proportion of Bush senior's former team thinks the same, even though they are not left wing lunatics. Bush junior did a lot to ruin the reputation of the US all over the world, despite tremendous sympathy and support after 9/11.

    As to the rest, you are really wasting your time by pretending that I am against Southerners in general. I think Bill Clinton is a great person, intelligent, with a lot of personality (and some problems which I consider private). BTW I went to school in Alabama for a while, and I had a very good time there.
    Man, you do love to spin your stories to suit the wind don't you.
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