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  1.    #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Hello? I'm saying you're not bashing the US. Also no one was bashing the French before. That was my point.
    Fair enough.
    Calling the president a hillbilly is a stupid, mindless bit of name calling, however. I think you don't know what it means.
    Hillbilly is a term for an unsophisticated person. That's exactly how he is viewed by most, at least outside of the US. It wasn't like that with any other president before him, most were quite popular in the rest of the (Western) world.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Hillbilly is a term for an unsophisticated person. That's exactly how he is viewed by most, at least outside of the US. It wasn't like that with any other president before him, most were quite popular in the rest of the (Western) world.
    This may come as a bit of a shock - perhaps you should sit.

    The popularity of our president in the rest of the world is waaaaaay down near the bottom of the List of Concerns of Average Americans. Your perception of him is *your* problem and fault, not ours (well, I'll grant our media does do everything possible to portray him as such).

    By the way, most Americans still *do* support the Iraq War, don't have a clue what "rendition" even is, and are a hell of a lot more concerned about *real* human rights that your average "world citizen". We just freed 26 million people in Iraq - but I guess that doesn't count, in your accounting.

    You don't bash, that much is true. You also only selectively cite "facts". You cite only opinions and reports that are favorable to your viewpoint.
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  3. #43  
    clulup, a few questions:

    1. To what extent do you think any sovreign nation should seek to appeal to other sovreign nations?
    2. To what extent do you think a sovreign nation is obligated to appease its detractors?
    3. What do you think the impact would be if the US ceased to contribute:
    * troops to UN missions
    * funds to UN initiatives
    * grain to famished nations
    * first responders to earthquake/flood/tsunami... ravaged areas
    * financial aid to earthquake/flood/tsunami... ravaged areas
    * military might to defenseless peoples
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Come on, Insertion, I am sure you can tell the difference between a thread in which plain, undisputed facts are stated and others are invited to share their thoughts (like this one), and a thread with the sole purpose of denigrating others in a silly way (by writing extremely intelligent things like "SCREW.EU", as suggested by Cardio).
    phurth didn't start the .eu thread to bash anyone. It was nothing more than another variant of a word game. You might as well lock all those down as well.

    But for the fact that it bore .eu, was the only reason it was locked. A knee jerk reaction by someone who decided it was intended to insult someone, rather than just another mindless game that it was intended to be.

    I wasn't even attacking you personally earlier, rather what topics are allowed to continue, and what gets closed.
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  5. #45  
    Human rights? Why does euro liberal point to USA? How bout China? How bout the terrorists who today murdered (probably took a knife and moved it back and forth across the neck of the American till his head fell off) an American?

    Again this thread has got to be CLOSED - but I'll say one more time...Macedonia arrested what they called a terrorist, called CIA to pick him up - they did. They sent him to AFGH. and realized they screwed up and freed him. I think I'd rather be him than the American who had his head sawed off.

    btw, many of us in the 'South' are only strengthened when self-righteous 'intellectuals' call one of us a hillbilly.


    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    I don't hate the US in the least, why should I? I think the current US authorities handle quite a lot of things in bad way (war in Iraq, "renditions", human rights), but that's just what the majority of Americans think, too.
  6.    #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    The popularity of our president in the rest of the world is waaaaaay down near the bottom of the List of Concerns of Average Americans.
    Yeah, sure, that's why some of you drove nuts when I called him hillbilly.
    You don't bash, that much is true.
    Glad you agree and notice the difference.
    You also only selectively cite "facts". You cite only opinions and reports that are favorable to your viewpoint.
    So in theory, you could quote things supporting your point of view, and we could have a nice little discussion - instead of just "SCREW.EU", as advocated by some people on your side.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  7.    #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    clulup, a few questions:

    1. To what extent do you think any sovreign nation should seek to appeal to other sovreign nations?
    To the degree that they expect mutual support.
    2. To what extent do you think a sovreign nation is obligated to appease its detractors?
    To none.
    3. What do you think the impact would be if the US ceased to contribute:
    * troops to UN missions
    * funds to UN initiatives
    * grain to famished nations
    * first responders to earthquake/flood/tsunami... ravaged areas
    * financial aid to earthquake/flood/tsunami... ravaged areas
    * military might to defenseless peoples
    We have gone through this before. The US have a far bigger army than the EU nations. Sometimes the US use their military power for wise things, which is good.

    As to the other (non-military) points: the contribution of the US to foreign aid and similar projects is much lower than that of the EU nations. So the US stopping to contribute would be bad, but not as bad as the EU stopping to contribute.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    So in theory, you could quote things supporting your point of view, and we could have a nice little discussion
    Agreed. The unwarranted closing of some debate has clearly hurt the discussions here.
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  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    To the degree that they expect mutual support.
    That's a good guage. I suppose it is why we have elected to go it alone at times. I think the term used is "unilaterally"
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    To none.
    To what then is the value of the poll results cited?
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    We have gone through this before. The US have a far bigger army than the EU nations. Sometimes the US use their military power for wise things, which is good.
    I'll take that as an expression of appreciation
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    As to the other (non-military) points: the contribution of the US to foreign aid and similar projects is much lower than that of the EU nations. So the US stopping to contribute would be bad, but not as bad as the EU stopping to contribute.
    Interesting that the comparison is made to nationS. Translation: The US contribution is equivalent to that of many nations. And, as such it would be sorely missed.

    The good news is that the US is founded on principles that prompt us to act and not stand idly by. There are times when we have been slow to act. There are present conditions that we have yet to address. But, by and large, we have been there when others have needed us, even when they didn't even know they needed us.

    To those who don't agree with our present stance, nevertheless "You're Welcome"
    Last edited by shopharim; 12/08/2005 at 12:13 PM.
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    I guess this has a lot to do with a US-centric world view. You grow up with Hollywood Word War II movies and you believe Hitler lost the war on D-Day in the Normandie, while in fact he lost it in Russia, thanks to the sacrifice of millions of Russian lives.
    As pointed out, it was a tag team effort. It is a FACT that if the US had not re-opened the western front, that the Russians would have been a LOT more hard pressed with all of the German resources focused on them, and very possibly not even have won during that last hard winter. It is also a FACT that if the Russians were not pounding the Germans on the Eastern front, that there is a good chance that our foothold in France might not have lasted very long. To say all due credit goes to the Russians for Hitlers fall is a slap in the face to the 150,000 Americans who lost their lives trying to free EU from the western side of Germany.

    Here is an interesting public opinion poll......PC note to Admins: it only happens to a poll taken in France during Bush visit and not French bashing....but during Bush's speech in France on Memorial Day in 2004 commemorating all of the American lives lost during our fight on EU soil during WWII, a public opinion poll was taken concerning our involvement in liberating their country during WWII:

    55% of French said last Memorial day of this year that France has absolutely no moral debt or gratitude for the over 150,000 Americans that died to liberate their country in WWII.

    This opinion is shared by 63% of those aged 18 to 24 years, 58% of those 25 to 34, 54% of those 35 to 49, 48% of those 50 to 64 and even 32% of those 65 and older. Among the professions, farmers thought this in the greatest majority (62%) while retirees and the self-employed were the least likely to share this view (39%).

    The study also found that 82% of the French felt that France was sufficiently grateful to the US and that as little as 3% admire the US.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1125482.htm
    http://www.csa-fr.com/fra/dataset/da...i20040526c.htm (I cant read french so I maybe mistaken, but I THINK this is the poll they referenced)
    I lived in England for a couple of years. Even there, there is a percentage of citizens, a large amount of those being old enough to remember the ramifications of WWII, that sincerely appreciate what America does or tries to do. There is also a large percentage who only view Americans through a liberal media and Hollywood as rich loud mouth Texan 910210 brats that always have money, 4 cars, a large swimming pool, and arrogant enough to do whatever we darn well please without a single thought about anyone else. Of course this may be true with a .00000001 percent of Americans, it is by far not the norm or even close. I cannot tell you how many times someone said something to the fact that "You (an American) are not anything like I thought you would be." Some would add something like: "Your not anything like I see on TV."

    This may or may not include you, but there is certainly a misconception about America, our politics, our President(s), and our unique culture, in the EU.
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    I don't bash, I quote. You don't like the facts? Bad luck, but that doesn't make it bashing.
    OK. Back to the facts:

    Here's a snippet from the Washington Post story about this:
    In 2000, then-CIA Director George J. Tenet said that "renditions have shattered terrorist cells and networks, thwarted terrorist plans, and in some cases even prevented attacks from occurring."
    I have two questions for you:

    1) How many people do you supposed might have been saved at the cost of at most (according to this story) "a couple dozen" people being wrongfully held and later released?
    2) Who was president of the US when the above quoted statement was made?

    You made this relevant with your statement:
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    I think the current US authorities handle quite a lot of things in bad way (war in Iraq, "renditions", human rights)...
    During the Golden Age of Clinton, when by your account we were loved and respected throughout the world, we apparently also carried out these "renditions" of suspected terrorists. That they were done and increased after the attacks of 9/11 was a consequence of being at war. Why were we doing this prior to 9/11 is a larger and more interesting question to me.
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  12.    #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    a public opinion poll was taken concerning our involvement in liberating their country during WWII.
    Let's not pretend the US got involved into WWII because they felt like liberating France and/or the rest of Europe. Hitler declared war on the US, it wasn't the US chosing. Pearl Harbor showed the people at the time it was wise not to wait for the war to come to the US.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Appears freedom is enjoyed by many other countries other than USA, but they don't like fighting for it.
    What you said
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Let's not pretend the US got involved into WWII because they felt like liberating France and/or the rest of Europe. Hitler declared war on the US, it wasn't the US chosing. Pearl Harbor showed the people at the time it was wise not to wait for the war to come to the US.
    You twisted it again, I said nothing about motives, incentives, etc... There is no doubt, and well documented, that President Roosevelt realized the danger that Hitler presented if everything went the direction it was going without exception, and Hitler did establish his goal of conquering all of the EU and Russia. Imagine if he had succeeded in developing an Empire from the British Isles to the Bering Straight?

    You bet there was a selfish self preservation motivation to liberate and free (and please note...not claim conquerer rights) all of the countries in the EU! Does that still not make it worthy of at least appreciation.....or at least gratitude........for what we did in and for EU?

    As for Germany declaring war on the US (which is what Roosevelt wanted in the first place at least 12-18 months prior), in 1940, the Triparte Pact was signed, allying Japan, Germany, and Italy into a powerful force that stretched halfway around the planet. If one went to war with a country not currently at war with, the others would come to it's aid. The fine print of the treaty actually says initiated by attack, but with all the resources and help we were giving to Britian at the time ( in 1940 or 1941 congress signed a 7 billion budget to aid the Brits which was 3 times the whole US defense budget 3 years previous) Hitler had full motivation to take advantage of the Triparte Pact in light of the US declaring war on Japan.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 12/09/2005 at 10:38 AM.
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Let's not pretend the US got involved into WWII because they felt like liberating France and/or the rest of Europe. Hitler declared war on the US, it wasn't the US chosing. Pearl Harbor showed the people at the time it was wise not to wait for the war to come to the US.
    The leftist revisionist history is getting tedious. Like any committment of force, the entry into WWII was done for many reasons - one of which was a desire to not see Europe remain shrouded in the dark veil of Facism. Like we still believe today, a more free and democratic world is a more peaceful world. As a nation we see it in our own self-interest to promote in as many ways as possible the expansion of freedom and democracy. Thus was it in the 1940's, thus is it today.
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  16. #56  
    I personally am very glad that the US became involved in WW2 and there is no doubt that their entry was a major contributing factor to the allies winning. However, let's not pretend that the US single handedly won it. Us little Brits managed to keep nasty Mr Hitler at bay for quite a while virtually on our own. Let's just try and get along here, I thought the US and UK were meant to be chums. Seems like it to me anyway and at the end of the day, quite frankly I'd rather have the US on my side than against me....Clulup old chap, I'm sure you mean well but if I were you I wouldn't raise the WW2 scenario particularly in the light of Switzerland's...how can I put it...less than distinguished WW2 activities...or lack of it when the rest of Europe was getting quite literally humped by the Nazis trying to protect Europe's freedom. Merry Xmas everyone !!
  17. #57  
    Murrayalex: great point. I said this before, often times when I am talking about WWII the US and Brit become one and the same in my eyes. It is only because of your resolve that we had the opportunity to irk Hitler enough to want to go to war with us, giving the green light to Roosevelt to do what he wanted to do for the previous 18 months.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 12/08/2005 at 02:56 PM.
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Truman
    ...Roosevelt
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  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    ...Roosevelt
    I was reading a piece on Truman yesterday and he must of stuck in my head.
  20. #60  
    It's OK PPC buddy. We all knew what you meant.
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