Results 1 to 12 of 12
  1.    #1  
    "In recent months a civil-military divide has emerged in the United States over the war in Iraq. Unlike much of the Iraq debate between Democrats and Republicans, it is over the present and the future rather than the past. Increasingly, civilians worry that the war is being lost, or at least not won. But the military appears as confident as ever of ultimate victory. This difference of opinion does not amount to a crisis in national resolve, and it will not radically affect our Iraq policy in the short term. But it is insidious and dangerous nonetheless. To the extent possible, the gap should be closed."

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...pinion/columns

    O'Hanlon is a classic Brookings never been there or done that pretty boy academic, but swerves dangerously close to some truths in this piece. He just isn't quite able to close the loop on the real cause of the public perception of our progress in Iraq...a media that only reports on losses and terrorist attacks.
  2. #2  
    Also US policy on how to treat terrorist suspects creates conflict between NATO partners..
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  3.    #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    Also US policy on how to treat terrorist suspects creates conflict between NATO partners..

    The only NATO partner I care about is England. Tell me, how do they treat their terrorist "suspects"?
  4. #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    The only NATO partner I care about is England.
    How come?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Tell me, how do they treat their terrorist "suspects"?
    the biggest issue people seem to have that the geneva convention is not honored and hence we get exess like the torture disaster..
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    "In recent months a civil-military divide has emerged in the United States over the war in Iraq. Unlike much of the Iraq debate between Democrats and Republicans, it is over the present and the future rather than the past. Increasingly, civilians worry that the war is being lost, or at least not won. But the military appears as confident as ever of ultimate victory. This difference of opinion does not amount to a crisis in national resolve, and it will not radically affect our Iraq policy in the short term. But it is insidious and dangerous nonetheless. To the extent possible, the gap should be closed."

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...pinion/columns

    O'Hanlon is a classic Brookings never been there or done that pretty boy academic, but swerves dangerously close to some truths in this piece. He just isn't quite able to close the loop on the real cause of the public perception of our progress in Iraq...a media that only reports on losses and terrorist attacks.

    Again, throwing around the phrase "victory" in Iraq has no real definition. That is what's lacking, currently, from this administration. (we all know what they've shown to lack in the recent past.)
  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    ...a media that only reports on losses and terrorist attacks.
    I think the media's main priorities are to make money first, tell the news second. That may be jaded but it seems to be the reality.
    Palm III-->Palm IIIxe-->Palm 505-->Samsung i300-->Treo 600-->PPC 6600-->Treo 650-->Treo 700wx-->BB Pearl--> BB Curve

  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    the biggest issue people seem to have that the geneva convention is not honored and hence we get exess like the torture disaster.
    I thought the Geneva Convention protected uniformed, regular soldiers from abuse when captured.

    Since when does it provide any protection whatsoever for irregular "soldiers"?
    Current: iPhone 3G
    Retired from active duty: Treo 800w, Sprint Touch, Mogul, Apache, Cingular Treo 650, HP iPaq 4350, T|T, M505 - Nokia 3650 - SE R520m, T610, T637, Moto P280, etc, etc...
  8. #8  
    The Geneva Convention may be fine for "Gentleman's Wars", where sovereign countries agree to rules of what is fair-play and acceptable behavior for civilized nations... but realize when dealing with countrys there are other alternatives to war that can be tried first... economioc blockades, political, press, and people-pressure, etc. We try these first, then military might may be needed. Let's not re-hash the old arguements about if we did this- the fact is we are there now.

    But when it is not a country, but terrorist organizations, how can you hold it accountable? How can you blockade A-Q? When they do not play by any rules whatsoever, and they want not a political or military victory, but want to utterly destroy and kill you and every last one of your countrymen, they do not "play fair". While it would be "nice" to not sink to that level and to try to be above all that, sometimes you do not have that luxury. And it is a luxury. You have to decide if you want all Americans dead so you can at least be looked on as "fair" (looked on by who- they will still record in their history that you were infidels- and they will be the only ones surviving to write the only version of history written), or do you want them dead before they kill you, and your mom, and your kids?

    This time of year we hear about Christmas Truces... and the Snoopy vs. the Red Baron song illustrates a real Christmas truce in WWII. While it really seems nice and all, I wonder about the wisdom of letting your guard down for even one day. If something is important enough to go to war over, with all the killing on both sides, is it a disservice to those who have to died to take a break so you can have warm and fuzzy feelings, while risking all they died to accomplish? Heck-we make police and firemen work on Christmas day because it is important that they do so to save lives, a much nobler reason than having Blockbuster employees work on the holiday, yet the soldiers defending your freedom and your lives get the day off? Hmmm... If it is a really tight battle, it can be lost in that one day, and all your countrymen could wind up enslaved- or dead. Now I heard that the Allied commander may have taken advantage of the WWII truce to scope-out the enemy's encampment... but how did he know that the German beer that was sent to the allied troops couldn't have been poisoned?

    The difference in the above story is both the Allied and the Axis had a religious common ground to respect the day, and they felt it was o.k. to pause the fighting for a brief moment in that case. If they had a tough battle that could make or break the war- maybe they wouldn't have.

    In the current situation, there is no common religious ground. On the contrary, there is a strong belief that we are more than just the enemy, but we are infidels going to rot in hell because we do not submit to their religion. Killing us brings glory to their god, and if they die in the process- there's that bit about them geting those virgins. There is no incentive whatsoever for them to play fair- is there?? Am I wrong here- what is the incentive? Do such terrorists take a break from their schemes on Ramadan? Maybe they do- Just wondering...

    I find it interesting that people are afraid we are in another "Vietnam"... I thought one of the main criticisms of 'Nam was that we were not in it to utterly win, that we left the South Vietnamese and our fallen soldiers down. Than Westmoreland cooked the stats and did not do everything possible to succeed. Yet now some would have us cut and run, and let the newfound freedom that the Afghanistan & Iraqi people are beginning to experience just be a temporary blip, and they would return to being enslaved. That would be a crueller thing to do, to allow freedom to be snatched away from them after they just got a taste for it. Better they had never known freedom, than to have them taste it, then lose it.

    It would be "nice" to treat enemy combatants/terrorists/whatever better- but are you personally willing to explain that to whomever might be left if/when 10 or 20 major American Cities are leveled? If they know how to stop it, that intel must be extracted, using either the carrot OR the stick- whatever works. Sorry- but Nicieites be dammed!

    P.S.
    Wasn't another criticism of the President(s)- both of them, Bush & Clinton... that we knew how dangerous A-Q was , but did not stop 9-11? What if we couldn't stop it without violating some "right" ... can you explain that to the 3,000 familys of dead Americans? If so- you oratory skills are extraordinary.
    "Everybody Palm!"

    Palm III/IIIC, Palm Vx, Verizon: Treo 650, Centro, Pre+.
    Leo killed my future Pre 3 & Opal, dagnabitt!
    Should I buy a Handspring Visor instead?
    Got a Pre2! "It eats iPhones for Breakfast"!
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    I thought the Geneva Convention protected uniformed, regular soldiers from abuse when captured.

    Since when does it provide any protection whatsoever for irregular "soldiers"?
    Well either they are soldiers under the geneva convention or civilians under civilian law..
    The problem with guatanomo etc is that the people they hold there are neither..

    And besides what is the uniform for a guerilla army? prob. civilian clothes..
    I want terrorists to be judged as much as you, but I do want them to get a fair trial if we don't do that we sink to the same level as the terrorists..
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by duanedude1
    The difference in the above story is both the Allied and the Axis had a religious common ground to respect the day, and they felt it was o.k. to pause the fighting for a brief moment in that case. If they had a tough battle that could make or break the war- maybe they wouldn't have.

    In the current situation, there is no common religious ground.
    Nor was there in WWII:
    the nazi's had their own occult religion, the russians were communists, the brits were protestants and the US/Canada were catholic/protestant mix...
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  11. #11  
    Not the Nazi's - but the average German Soldier (conscripted & forced to fight for Adolph) respected the day as one commemorating the birth of Christ... a concept common to both Protestants and Catholics, and even in the memory of the Russians- with their Russian Orthodox Church- though they celebrate another day. My understanding was that the Christmas Truce was a German/Allied thing, I do not know if Russians were involved in it. There was also a cultural common ground as well as the religious one... Since Americans had ancestors in Europe.

    But I see little common ground in the present situation- do you?
    "Everybody Palm!"

    Palm III/IIIC, Palm Vx, Verizon: Treo 650, Centro, Pre+.
    Leo killed my future Pre 3 & Opal, dagnabitt!
    Should I buy a Handspring Visor instead?
    Got a Pre2! "It eats iPhones for Breakfast"!
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    Well either they are soldiers under the geneva convention or civilians under civilian law..
    The problem with guatanomo etc is that the people they hold there are neither..

    And besides what is the uniform for a guerilla army? prob. civilian clothes..
    I want terrorists to be judged as much as you, but I do want them to get a fair trial if we don't do that we sink to the same level as the terrorists..
    They are neither civilians nor uniformed soldiers. The are unlawful combatants, exactly as described in the Geneva Conventions. They should be treated just as we have always treated unlawful combatants (saboteurs, for example). If they choose guerilla warfare, they choose how they will be treated when captured. They choose to operate outside the bounds of civilization - their fate is deserved and does not lower us to their level. In fact, one could argue that not punishing harshly those who choose to operate outside of the Geneva Conventions is itself an act of barbarity since the Conventions exist to draw clear lines between combatants and non-combatants.
    Current: iPhone 3G
    Retired from active duty: Treo 800w, Sprint Touch, Mogul, Apache, Cingular Treo 650, HP iPaq 4350, T|T, M505 - Nokia 3650 - SE R520m, T610, T637, Moto P280, etc, etc...

Posting Permissions