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  1.    #1  
    "BROOK PARK, OHIO – Cpl. Stan Mayer has seen the worst of war. In the leaves of his photo album, there are casual memorials to the cost of the Iraq conflict - candid portraits of friends who never came home and graphic pictures of how insurgent bombs have shredded steel and bone.
    Yet the Iraq of Corporal Mayer's memory is not solely a place of death and loss. It is also a place of hope. It is the hope of the town of Hit, which he saw transform from an insurgent stronghold to a place where kids played on Marine trucks. It is the hope of villagers who whispered where roadside bombs were hidden. But most of all, it is the hope he saw in a young Iraqi girl who loved pens and Oreo cookies."

    http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1128/p01s02-usmi.html
  2. #2  
    The soldiers in Iraq should have hope that they are performing a meaningful mission. The simple fact is that there's something going on in the wider Middle East. It's just beginning, slowly in fits and starts, and certainly not irreversibly - but the liberation of Iraq is having the effect all those PNAC devils said it would - damn them!

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...500960_pf.html
    "But it is a Middle East in which those who believe in democracy and civil society are finally actors, even though we still face big obstacles," says Saad Eddin Ibrahim, Egypt's battle-scarred democratic activist.

    Ibrahim originally opposed the invasion of Iraq.
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  3. #3  
    General William Odom -- some here may have heard of him -- he's a VERY respected former Army General, who was head of the NSA for several years. He's a non-political, non-partisan old guy -- (and an old friend of daddy's).


    He wrote an in depth examination of the various reasons the supporters of the war give for our staying in Iraq.

    Its a logical, cold eyed look at our existing stategy, its prospects for success, and that strategy's implications for our future.

    Hopefully everyone can read the entire piece.


    Parenthetically, I want to predict that junior will withdraw at least a third to a half of US troops from Iraq before next November's elections. (probably I've already said this in another form, a month or 2 ago ).

    The iraq war is endangering the repugs stranglehold on power and control in this country, while everywhere costing conservatives popularity and strength.

    Junior will cynically draw down troops because of that specific worry. Every other homily and wistful myth he weaves about the heroic part we played in liberating iraq and democratizing the middle east will be but a giant thick smoke screen.
    Last edited by BARYE; 11/28/2005 at 09:50 AM.
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  4. #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Parenthetically, I want to predict that junior will withdraw at least a third to a half of US troops from Iraq before next November's elections. (probably I've already said this in another form, a month or 2 ago ).

    The iraq war is endangering the repugs stranglehold on power and control in this country, while everywhere costing conservatives popularity and strength.

    Junior will cynically draw down troops because of that specific worry.
    Wait...isn't this what the Left want...for us to withdraw from Iraq? Or did I misunderstand their position from their numerous quotes demanding that very action? You say that it is a pathetic that Bush will withdraw within a year (which several people on the Left have stated they want him to do). So, then if it is pathetic that he withdraws, then can safely assume it is better we stay? You can't say it is bad to withdraw and say it is bad to stay and still hold any legitimate ground in an argument, unless the goal of the argument is against Bush and not the topic on hand.
  5. NRG
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    #5  
    This is a thread for how the troops see it right? Well here is a little nugget.

    Source: Stars & Stripes

    War based on a lie

    Weapons of mass destruction? I’m still looking for them, and if you find any give me a call so we can justify our presence in Iraq. We started the war based on a lie, and we’ll finish it based on a lie. I say this because I am currently serving with a logistics headquarters in the Anbar province, between the cities of Fallujah and Ramadi. I am not fooled by the constant fabrication of “democracy” and “freedom” touted by our leadership at home and overseas.

    This deception is furthered by our armed forces’ belief that we can just enter ancient Mesopotamia and tell the locals about the benefits of a legislative assembly. While our European ancestors were hanging from trees, these ancient people were writing algebra and solving quadratic equations. Now we feel compelled to strong-arm them into accepting the spoils of capitalism and “laissez-faire” society. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy watching Britney Spears on MTV and driving to McDonald’s, but do you honestly believe that Sunnis, Shias and Kurds want our Western ideas of entertainment and freedom imposed on them? Think again.

    I’m not being negative, I’m being realistic. The reality in Iraq is that the United States created a nightmare situation where one didn’t exist. Yes, Saddam Hussein was an evil man who lied, cheated and pillaged his own nation. But how was he different from dictators in Africa who commit massive crimes again humanity with little repercussion and sometimes support from the West? The bottom line up front (BLUF to use a military acronym) is that Saddam was different because we used him as an excuse to go to war to make Americans “feel good” about the “War on Terrorism.” The BLUF is that our ultimate goal in 2003 was the security of Israel and the lucrative oil fields in northern and southern Iraq.

    Weapons of mass destruction? Call me when you find them. In the meantime, “bring ’em on” so we can get our “mission accomplished” and get out of this mess.

    Capt. Jeff Pirozzi
    Camp Taqaddum, Iraq
  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Wait...isn't this what the Left want...for us to withdraw from Iraq? Or did I misunderstand their position from their numerous quotes demanding that very action? You say that it is a pathetic that Bush will withdraw within a year (which several people on the Left have stated they want him to do). So, then if it is pathetic that he withdraws, then can safely assume it is better we stay? You can't say it is bad to withdraw and say it is bad to stay and still hold any legitimate ground in an argument, unless the goal of the argument is against Bush and not the topic on hand.
    They're ALWAYS against everything and NEVER for anything. Thats why they contradict themselves so much. Its just a little easier to recognize now that Kerry made the flip flop so blatantly obvious.
    Last edited by sxtg; 11/28/2005 at 09:45 AM.
  7.    #7  
    NRG...accept that this one low ranking officer's opinion is in the minority in the military. The very small minority.

    The guys doing the actual fighting are bearing most of the losses and want to see the mission through. The rhetoric of high ranking Democrat/Socialists is driving a fresh wedge between those who fight and those on the Left. The consequences of their "say anything to gain political power" tactic will be that another generation will learn that modern Democrat/Socialists don't have the stomach to defend the country. The professional military will never trust the media again. This has long term and dangerous implications for the nation.
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Wait...isn't this what the Left want...for us to withdraw from Iraq? Or did I misunderstand their position from their numerous quotes demanding that very action? You say that it is a pathetic that Bush will withdraw within a year (which several people on the Left have stated they want him to do). So, then if it is pathetic that he withdraws, then can safely assume it is better we stay? You can't say it is bad to withdraw and say it is bad to stay and still hold any legitimate ground in an argument, unless the goal of the argument is against Bush and not the topic on hand.
    yes Hobbes, I want them to withdraw -- their presence is making an already bad situation worse, not better.

    our guys provide a cause for the iraqis and islamicists to unite around and against --- we give them a single explanation for their venom and hatred --- while handing them excuses and targets.

    what I don't want is for that lying coward in chief to pretend like his "redeployment" was all part of his plan all along -- that it is "a sign of our success there, that we are able to redeploy and leave Iraq better for our sacrifice".

    They are going to "redeploy" ONLY because they are fearful of losing their absolute control of this government.

    I want him to admit that it was one of the gravest blunders ever committed by any US leader -- comparable to vietnam and much much worse than Raygun's Lebanon debacle.

    I'd be satisfied if he were impeached and jailed for his criminalty -- but obviously I'm a forgiving merciful kinda guy...
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  9. #9  
    do you think that no good came of this operation? i'm sorry that your life is so miserable that you have to find fault in others actions to appear better than you really are.
  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    what I don't want is for that lying coward in chief to pretend like his "redeployment" was all part of his plan all along
    What do you really think he meant to occupy Iraq eternally? If not, then the plan had redeployment all along....just not a date a attached to it. It just seems that you are trying to catch him going in and coming out.
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    I'd be satisfied if he were impeached and jailed for his criminalty -- but obviously I'm a forgiving merciful kinda guy...
    No, obviously you're a seditious, weak-kneed spineless bury-your-head-in-the-sand and maybe the bad guys will go away on their own kinda guy. Take a peek inside your designer briefs and do a check for stones.
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    What do you really think he meant to occupy Iraq eternally? If not, then the plan had redeployment all along....just not a date a attached to it. It just seems that you are trying to catch him going in and coming out.
    they planned to have a permanent military presence in Iraq --

    they anticipated that the new happy peaceful democratic iraqis would happily bestow upon us long term use of military bases.

    they expected to reap billions in oil company contracts etc. They expected that this entire enterprise would be self financing and the prelude to a reconfigured middle east.

    their ignorant delusions have devolved into desperate "realism" at the cost of national catastrophe.
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  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by Gasmeister
    No, obviously you're a seditious, weak-kneed spineless bury-your-head-in-the-sand and maybe the bad guys will go away on their own kinda guy. Take a peek inside your designer briefs and do a check for stones.
    no under garments for me -- designer or otherwise.

    there is a delusional core of perhaps 25% of this country that will never be able to confront the mendacity and corruption in this administration, its leaders, and its congressional whores.

    the single benefit that will be gotten from junior's second term is that they will have almost no credible place to hide from their responsibility and blame (I say "almost" --- because they are still trying to put blame democrats who have had neither influence or control ...
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  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    there is a delusional core of perhaps 25% of this country that will never be able to confront the mendacity and corruption in this administration, its leaders, and its congressional whores.
    I don't think that anyone can honestly deny that there are grave inefficiencies in our system. I would think that just about anyone could see that.

    but there are marketing strategies to selling a product to the american people. because we are stupid. (you can't deny that either) whether he had WMD's, may or may not have been relevent to anyone on or near capotil hill or anywhere else in the world. If there is a mission to accomplish, there is a way to do it with as little mess as possible. There was not enough reason to go into iraq without (speculation) making up a story like that. but hey, while we're here, let's free millions of people, prevent unnecessary deaths, give the power to the people where most americans think it belongs, and allow an otherwise single-track country(oil) to have a chance to become a world superpower, kind of like what we did with france, germany, spain, etc. I can't think that they'd be anywhere on a map without our help.

    WMD's were just the marketing to sell the war (IMO). If you can justify why iraq has no business being free and democratic i'd like to hear. If you're just going to ask, "so the ends justify the means?" I'm going to say, "In this case yes." There are no black and white rules to running a country. Just like any business will market their goods differently to different demos, so does a government when it needs something from it's people. It's not lying it's marketing.

    The problem with most people is that the only work forward in their thought process. beginning to end. Try working end to beginning sometimes, and see if there are alternative solutions to different steps along the way.

    I support the war. EVEN MORE i support my brothers in the war. We've ridden of a world leader that despite having more appearences on SNL than jacque sheraque (sp), is not a well liked person in the international community. We're allowing the iraqis to retake their government and land, which in case you forgot, is mildly comparable to what we did in 1776 ish. Only they couldn't have done it without us.

    Did he lie, maybe, but he sold the war. You can call him a used car salesman just trying to peddle the lemons on the lot, but you bought it. Live with it.
  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    they planned to have a permanent military presence in Iraq --

    they anticipated that the new happy peaceful democratic iraqis would happily bestow upon us long term use of military bases.
    As well we should. One of the goals of the invasion was to pressure Saudi Arabia to be more cooperative in the war on terror.
    they expected to reap billions in oil company contracts etc.
    That's idiotic. They expected the oilfields would be set ablaze and unuseable for quite some time.
    They expected that this entire enterprise would be self financing and the prelude to a reconfigured middle east.
    Self-financed how? If the oil companies were getting all the fat petro-dollars? You contradict yourself. The reconfiguring of the Middle East is currently underway. You just have to open your eyes. It's not irreversible, certainly, but it is underway.
    their ignorant delusions have devolved into desperate "realism" at the cost of national catastrophe.
    Catastrophe? Get a grip.
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  16. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by cheetahjeremy
    I don't think that anyone can honestly deny that there are grave inefficiencies in our system. I would think that just about anyone could see that.

    but there are marketing strategies to selling a product to the american people. because we are stupid. (you can't deny that either) whether he had WMD's, may or may not have been relevent to anyone on or near capotil hill or anywhere else in the world. If there is a mission to accomplish, there is a way to do it with as little mess as possible. There was not enough reason to go into iraq without (speculation) making up a story like that. but hey, while we're here, let's free millions of people, prevent unnecessary deaths, give the power to the people where most americans think it belongs, and allow an otherwise single-track country(oil) to have a chance to become a world superpower, kind of like what we did with france, germany, spain, etc. I can't think that they'd be anywhere on a map without our help.

    WMD's were just the marketing to sell the war (IMO). If you can justify why iraq has no business being free and democratic i'd like to hear. If you're just going to ask, "so the ends justify the means?" I'm going to say, "In this case yes." There are no black and white rules to running a country. Just like any business will market their goods differently to different demos, so does a government when it needs something from it's people. It's not lying it's marketing.

    The problem with most people is that the only work forward in their thought process. beginning to end. Try working end to beginning sometimes, and see if there are alternative solutions to different steps along the way.

    I support the war. EVEN MORE i support my brothers in the war. We've ridden of a world leader that despite having more appearences on SNL than jacque sheraque (sp), is not a well liked person in the international community. We're allowing the iraqis to retake their government and land, which in case you forgot, is mildly comparable to what we did in 1776 ish. Only they couldn't have done it without us.

    Did he lie, maybe, but he sold the war. You can call him a used car salesman just trying to peddle the lemons on the lot, but you bought it. Live with it.

    I can actually agree with alot of what you wrote -- especially about how they "marketed" this war using WMD's -- almost like how Madison Avenue would sell bad breath products.

    Regretably the consequences of their "marketing fibs" are far more horrific for our friends and our nation than simply some bad tasting mouth wash occupying real estate in the closet for years and years.

    You mentioned Spain as one of the places we saved -- perhaps you can help there on that.

    I remember when we stole their colonies in Cuba and the Philpines, but I don't think that the Spanish remember that and "The Maine" quite as you.

    But I do remember a Spain more relevant to this discussion -- the one that chose to initiate an unneccasary war with the English.

    The largest, richest, most powerful empire in the world, they (twice) sent a huge naval and army force against Britain.

    The stupidity of that invaison plan lead to the debacle of the sunken Armada -- which then lead to the irreversible decline into bankruptcy of what had been before, an unmatched super power.
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  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by Gasmeister
    No, obviously you're a seditious, weak-kneed spineless bury-your-head-in-the-sand and maybe the bad guys will go away on their own kinda guy. Take a peek inside your designer briefs and do a check for stones.
    You mean like these bad guys.

    (on another note. Don't just insult if you can't make a point)
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by cheetahjeremy
    Did he lie, maybe, but he sold the war. You can call him a used car salesman just trying to peddle the lemons on the lot, but you bought it. Live with it.
    No, I never bought it. I was dumbfounded that we would be invading another country and diverting our attention away from the root cause and support for the 9-11 attacks.
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    they planned to have a permanent military presence in Iraq --

    they anticipated that the new happy peaceful democratic iraqis would happily bestow upon us long term use of military bases.
    Having a military base in a country where we helped set up their gov has historical precedence. Look at Japan, Germany, France, etc...... to name a few. negotiating to have a base location there would be expected from ANY sitting President, no matter if they were Dem, Rep, Green, or Ind.

    You mentioned that you are for withdrawal, but was upset that Bush would withdrawal up to a third of the Troops.
    Originally Posted by BARYE
    what I don't want is for that lying coward in chief to pretend like his "redeployment" was all part of his plan all along
    Then you try to tie the knot by saying he never planned to redeploy the Tens of Thousands of troops because he wanted to keep a military base location there. How big did you expect this base to be? Did you honestly think that Bush would try to cram all the Soldiers currently over there onto a negotiated Military base? Or was the plan to have 15 Military bases in a country the size of CA? Do you really think he planned to keep Tens of Hundreds of Thousands of troops over there for the next 20-60 years without redeploying them? If so, please site what gave you the idea this was intended all along. Or is this just another fact based on opinion and personal bias against anything Bush?
  20. NRG
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    #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    NRG...accept that this one low ranking officer's opinion is in the minority in the military. The very small minority.
    Isn't Corpral lower than Capt.? Nonetheless the same could be said about the guy you quote. We don't now.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    The guys doing the actual fighting are bearing most of the losses and want to see the mission through.
    What may that mission be?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    The rhetoric of high ranking Democrat/Socialists is driving a fresh wedge between those who fight and those on the Left.
    There you go again, do you not think there are Dems in there fighting? Or did I forget that service is strictly a Repub thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    The consequences of their "say anything to gain political power" tactic will be that another generation will learn that modern Democrat/Socialists don't have the stomach to defend the country.
    Good god this is a gross statement, on so many levels I would not even know where to begin.
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