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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    I was really hoping you had something other than that. So the Russian and French desire for the oil is more important than any other countries desire for the oil (most vested interest). I guess I can see that with the under the table, behind the back against, the UN Mandate deals they were reaching for oil, and the selling/trading of weapons for the ability to work a contract.

    Glad you can see it.
  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    You originally stated that you did not know of anyone calling for immediate withdrawal, so it was just clarification that there are Dems calling for immediate withdrawal with actions starting prior to Dec Iraqi Elections.

    With tens of thousands of troops you would expect there to be transport time, which is what Murtha was referring to with his call for an immediate evac having the last soldier leaving putting the garbage on the curb on the way out.
    If a two week delay for the election is that symbolically important to you then I concede. Let's start in Jan. We'll make it our country's new year's resolution, "We shall not be lead blindly by idiots with lies and no plan." (Is not meant to rechurn that debate. I'm being funny)
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    #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Holy crap! Do me a favor.... Never "help" me please.

    Oh, BTW, how much help have we given the Palestinians?

    "We don't draft, and most active duty military have entered the military after 9/11. (I haven't found any #'s yet to compare career military VS 1st tour military personnel) BUT THEY'VE made the choice to serve with the obvious commitment to serve to president of the united states and the country's call of duty." <--- That's just completely delusional.
    Going off memory here but, The military recruitment works on a 50/30/20 priciple (might be off by 10%). The goal is 50% 1st term, 30% 2nd/3rd term, and 20% career, the rational is that you need more worker bees and 1st line supervisors then managers. So, with that line of thinking it could have some truth that the majority are first term enlisting after 9/11.
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    If a two week delay for the election is that symbolically important to you then I concede. Let's start in Jan. We'll make it our country's new year's resolution, "We shall not be lead blindly by idiots with lies and no plan." (Is not meant to rechurn that debate. I'm being funny)
    The two week delay means nothing to me...it was Murtha who made the specific point that action for an immediate withdraw had to be started prior to Iraqi's Election
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Oh holy crap! And who sold Iraq chemical weapons used during the HORRIBLE Iran/Iraq war?
    I don't know. You obviously have a source I don't. Cite it please.
    No, Europe's interests are different than ours. And by interests. I'm talking global economics, of which I don't believe war should be a factor but here we have the bully country getting outmaneuvered by it's global economic competitors so it pushes them down instead of losing in musical oil sources? Sad.
    That made no sense. Take a deep breath...

    ...now please try again. Something about us being a bully and losing oil something-or-other???
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  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    My point is many far Lefties are saying full evac immediately....before the last of the elections establishing the new gov have even taken place! That is cut and run.

    I just wanted to voice my opinion here. I consider myself and many of my friends to be amongst the far-left. While utterly opposed to the Iraq invasion and subsequent war, now that we're knee-deep in it I am vehemently opposed to whisking our military force away and letting the country fend for itself in the dismal shape it's in. While this may have been a successful military operation in some eyes, I find it rather disheartening to see the situation things are in now. We blundered in and we now we need to mend things properly, which in my eyes involves rebuilding a viable infrastructure and establishing some form of government. Personally, being originally from the Middle East, I don't think it's our right as Americans to enforce the ideal of Democracy upon a nation that may very well not be equipped at adopting it.
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    I don't know. You obviously have a source I don't. Cite it please.
    Regarding Chemical Weapons:

    April, 1988. US Department of Commerce approves shipment of chemicals used in manufacture of mustard gas. [7]

    August, 1988. Four major battles were fought from April to August 1988, in which the Iraqis massively and effectively used chemical weapons to defeat the Iranians. Nerve gas and blister agents such as mustard gas are used. By this time the US Defense Intelligence Agency is heavily involved with Saddam Hussein in battle plan assistance, intelligence gathering and post battle debriefing. In the last major battle with of the war, 65,000 Iranians are killed, many with poison gas. Use of chemical weapons in war is in violation of the Geneva accords of 1925. [6] & [13]
    Source: http://www.iranchamber.com/history/a...rming_iraq.php


    I have several other sources at home as well. The evidence may not be a smoking gun but there was also a recent NYT article describing how the US turned a blind eye to the use of chemical weapons and continued supporting the regime: http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/51/220.html
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by Sherv
    Regarding Chemical Weapons:

    Source: http://www.iranchamber.com/history/a...rming_iraq.php

    I have several other sources at home as well. The evidence may not be a smoking gun but there was also a recent NYT article describing how the US turned a blind eye to the use of chemical weapons and continued supporting the regime: http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/51/220.html
    Not only is that info (while interesting reading) not a smoking gun, it's not even a cold gun in the same room.

    I was looking for a cite for daThomas' assertion that we sold Iraq chemical weapons used during the Iran/Iraq war. I'm still waiting.

    At any rate, even assuming all that were true, committing a wrong act in the past certainly doesn't lock our government into continuing that wrong policy in perpetuity, does it?
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  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Not only is that info (while interesting reading) not a smoking gun, it's not even a cold gun in the same room.

    I was looking for a cite for daThomas' assertion that we sold Iraq chemical weapons used during the Iran/Iraq war. I'm still waiting.

    Here are, perhaps, better sources: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story...866942,00.html
    and
    http://www.zmag.org/content/showarti...40&ItemID=2292
    Quote from the latter article:
    The U.S. also directly supplied Iraq with biological weapons. Author William Blum writes that according to a 1994 Senate Committee Report, "From 1985, if not earlier, through 1989, a veritable witch's brew of biological materials were exported to Iraq by private American suppliers pursuant to application and licensing by the U.S. Department of Commerce." (Counterpunch, 8/20/02)
    The deadly mix included anthrax, botulism, and E. coli bacteria. Blum adds that the Senate Report stated, "these microorganisms exported by the United States were identical to those the United Nations inspectors found and removed from the Iraqi biological warfare program."
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Holy crap! Do me a favor.... Never "help" me please.
    You're off the list. That'll save me a little time anyway. I hadn't planned on spending too much on you anyway.

    BTW, does anyone have a link to the adult treocentral. I was hoping to have a conversation, not an arguement. Feel like i'm in a monty python skit.
  11. NRG
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    #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    He stated an immediate withdrawal that will be finalized with the last troops leaving within 6 months. Here is he exact quote from the transcript:
    T6 0e 5t 3662s 352e a rea35gn0ent 6f 64r tr66ps/.

    Damn number pad to make a symbol in a previous post. To me he plans to keep a presence there, just a less visible one. See quote posted by you:

    My plan calls for immediate redeployment of U.S. troops consistent with the safety of U.S. forces to create a quick reaction force in the region, to create an over-the-horizon presence of Marines, and to diplomatically pursue security and stability in Iraq.
    To me that sounds like realignment to get our troops out of harms way and an experiment to see if some violence will subside with a decreased American presence. To me it sounds like he is pushing for the military to follow Rumsfeld's wet dream, "A small lightning quick reaction force". If I am not mistaken this is what Rumsfeld wanted to achieve with the military, hence the small forces we went into Iraq with.
    Last edited by NRG; 12/01/2005 at 12:35 AM.
  12. NRG
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    #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by Sherv
    I don't think it's our right as Americans to enforce the ideal of Democracy upon a nation that may very well not be equipped at adopting it.
    Agreed, What if China thought communism was right for America, what then?
  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Agreed, What if China thought communism was right for America, what then?
    i have to say.... that's the most intelligent sentence that anyone has said in any of daThomas' propaganda rants. Good point.
  14. NRG
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    #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by cheetahjeremy
    i have to say.... that's the most intelligent sentence that anyone has said in any of daThomas' propaganda rants. Good point.
    TY
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    T6 0e 5t 3662s 352e a rea35gn0ent 6f 64r tr66ps/.

    Damn number pad to make a symbol in a previous post. To me he plans to keep a presence there, just a less visible one. See quote posted by you:

    To me that sounds like realignment to get our troops out of harms way and an experiment to see if some violence will subside with a decreased American presence. To me it sounds like he is pushing for the military to follow Rumsfeld's wet dream, "A small lightning quick reaction force". If I am not mistaken this is what Rumsfeld wanted to achieve with the military, hence the small forces we went into Iraq with.
    No that is removing all troops from Iraq ASAP and keeping a small force near by...Saudi, Turkey, Navy ship, etc...
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Agreed, What if China thought communism was right for America, what then?
    Uh,they'd be wrong???

    Are you implying that democracy is not better than communism? You can't be serious.
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  17. NRG
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    #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    No that is removing all troops from Iraq ASAP and keeping a small force near by...Saudi, Turkey, Navy ship, etc...
    It sounds like a reduced presence to me.
  18. NRG
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    #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Uh,they'd be wrong???

    Are you implying that democracy is not better than communism? You can't be serious.
    So what gives us the right? Just a fair question. Do you see where I am going with this?

    And no, there is no implementation that one form of government is better than the other. I think that was the point from the beginning. I wanted to show.......... you know that dirty H word. I guess if China felt communism was right for the US, would you sign the constitution, obey the government rule that has been placed at gunpoint? Or would you resist and try to instill your own concenus government? I am going to go with the latter since that was how the US was formed. If our actions in Iraq send people in that direction then so be it, but I feel we are approaching this in the wrong direction/angle and I would like to see a tectonic plate shift in policy.
    Last edited by NRG; 12/01/2005 at 04:44 AM.
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    #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Agreed, What if China thought communism was right for America, what then?
    If it was 1765 and we were under the control of a dictator and China came in and kicked the dictator out, allowed us to write a constitution and the nation voted on that constitution and we wrote the constitution that leaned toward communism.....well I think you see where I am going.
  20. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    It sounds like a reduced presence to me.
    The key word in your quote is REGION....not state or country. Historically, the Region when talking about any country in the Middle East consists of neighboring countries and the Gulf and not inside the specific country you are talking about at the time.
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