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  1.    #1  
    From Max Boot writing in the LA Times.

    "WHEN IT COMES to the future of Iraq, there is a deep disconnect between those who have firsthand knowledge of the situation Iraqis and U.S. soldiers serving in Iraq and those whose impressions are shaped by doomsday press coverage and the imperatives of domestic politics."

    "There are also positive economic indicators that receive little or no coverage in the Western media. For all the insurgents' attempts to sabotage the Iraqi economy, the Brookings Institution reports that per capita income has doubled since 2003 and is now 30% higher than it was before the war. Thanks primarily to the increase in oil prices, the Iraqi economy is projected to grow at a whopping 16.8% next year. According to Brookings' Iraq index, there are five times more cars on the streets than in Saddam Hussein's day, five times more telephone subscribers and 32 times more Internet users."

    " The growth of the independent media a prerequisite of liberal democracy is even more inspiring. Before 2003 there was not a single independent media outlet in Iraq. Today, Brookings reports, there are 44 commercial TV stations, 72 radio stations and more than 100 newspapers."

    The rest at: http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...mment-opinions
  2. NRG
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    #2  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    From Max Boot writing in the LA Times.

    "WHEN IT COMES to the future of Iraq, there is a deep disconnect between those who have firsthand knowledge of the situation Iraqis and U.S. soldiers serving in Iraq and those whose impressions are shaped by doomsday press coverage and the imperatives of domestic politics."

    "There are also positive economic indicators that receive little or no coverage in the Western media. For all the insurgents' attempts to sabotage the Iraqi economy, the Brookings Institution reports that per capita income has doubled since 2003 and is now 30% higher than it was before the war. Thanks primarily to the increase in oil prices, the Iraqi economy is projected to grow at a whopping 16.8% next year. According to Brookings' Iraq index, there are five times more cars on the streets than in Saddam Hussein's day, five times more telephone subscribers and 32 times more Internet users."

    " The growth of the independent media a prerequisite of liberal democracy is even more inspiring. Before 2003 there was not a single independent media outlet in Iraq. Today, Brookings reports, there are 44 commercial TV stations, 72 radio stations and more than 100 newspapers."

    The rest at: http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...mment-opinions
    This guy is a PNAC lackey! Couldn't you find someone else?
  3. #3  
    I don't mean to ask this question as flame-bait, but I ask in all honesty. Is it possible that the per-captia income has increased because there are fewer people of working age due to all the civilian and military deaths? Fewer people=more jobs for those who remain=more competition for those jobs=higher pay?
    The whiny minority always out-posts the contented majority.
  4. #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    This guy is a PNAC lackey! Couldn't you find someone else?
    Can you refute what he says - or do you prefer to just attack him personally?
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  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by Indicator
    I don't mean to ask this question as flame-bait, but I ask in all honesty. Is it possible that the per-captia income has increased because there are fewer people of working age due to all the civilian and military deaths? Fewer people=more jobs for those who remain=more competition for those jobs=higher pay?
    I don't think so. If it was so bad that the population was actually being significantly reduced it would clearly be impacting economic activity overall, not just in per-capita income. Read the rest of the quote: more cars, more independant media, more phone and internet subscribers. You might have to face the prospect that you've not been well served by the media. Perhaps Iraq is not the desolate hell-hole that is often portrayed.
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  6. #6  
    Well, I'm certain that none of us have been served well by the media, regardless of our political leanings.

    I'm not certain what that has to do with death-toll, but while Iraq may not be a 'hell-hole', I can pretty much guarantee it isn't roses and kittens either. I'm confident there is some good being done in Iraq (as evidenced by the article and stats quoted) - Hussein unquestionably ruled with an iron first and in the long term I don't doubt that Iraq is better without him in power. Whether or not that makes our ongoing occupation of the country a wise use of our military, financial, political, and personal (i.e. human beigns) resources is another matter entirely.
    The whiny minority always out-posts the contented majority.
  7. NRG
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    #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Can you refute what he says - or do you prefer to just attack him personally?
    Let's look at it this way. He is a PNAC member of high order, it is his view that invading Iraq was the right thing to do. Plus not to mention he uses right leaning think tanks to make his points. If he was to use real Iraq country data then I would more willing to accept what is said here.

    Some of the things I would like to see explained in more detail would be such dubious quotes as:

    "there are five times more cars on the streets than in Saddam Hussein's day"
    Some registration numbers from Iraq's equal to a DMV would be nice. I find it very hard to believe that there are five(5) times more cars, anywhere, not just Iraq.

    "five times more telephone subscribers"
    Again a straight source besides facts that have been filtered through two very right sources would be great.

    I guess is what I am saying is I would prefer to make a decision formed from neutral sources, not people such as Max Boot who is a PNAC member(PNAC designed the whole policy of invading Iraq), and The Brookings Institute(A conservative think tank). Sorry.
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by Indicator
    Well, I'm certain that none of us have been served well by the media, regardless of our political leanings.

    I'm not certain what that has to do with death-toll, but while Iraq may not be a 'hell-hole', I can pretty much guarantee it isn't roses and kittens either. I'm confident there is some good being done in Iraq (as evidenced by the article and stats quoted) - Hussein unquestionably ruled with an iron first and in the long term I don't doubt that Iraq is better without him in power. Whether or not that makes our ongoing occupation of the country a wise use of our military, financial, political, and personal (i.e. human beigns) resources is another matter entirely.
    Agreed. There are very rough regions of Iraq and there are regions where relative peace, stability, and prosperity have arrived. That is the part of the story that is not being told well.
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  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Let's look at it this way. He is a PNAC member of high order, it is his view that invading Iraq was the right thing to do. Plus not to mention he uses right leaning think tanks to make his points. If he was to use real Iraq country data then I would more willing to accept what is said here.

    Some of the things I would like to see explained in more detail would be such dubious quotes as:

    "there are five times more cars on the streets than in Saddam Hussein's day"
    Some registration numbers from Iraq's equal to a DMV would be nice. I find it very hard to believe that there are five(5) times more cars, anywhere, not just Iraq.

    "five times more telephone subscribers"
    Again a straight source besides facts that have been filtered through two very right sources would be great.

    I guess is what I am saying is I would prefer to make a decision formed from neutral sources, not people such as Max Boot who is a PNAC member(PNAC designed the whole policy of invading Iraq), and The Brookings Institute(A conservative think tank). Sorry.
    Check out the (very heavily footnoted) report for yourself.

    http://www.brookings.edu/fp/saban/iraq/index.pdf

    Dismissing out-of-hand evidence contrary to a conclusion you've already drawn does not make for healthy debate.
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  10.    #10  
    Brookings...Conservative....Bwhahahahaha!
  11. #11  
    Glad everything is so hunky-dory (sp?) over there. Now we can bring our people home.
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Glad everything is so hunky-dory (sp?) over there. Now we can bring our people home.
    Indeed - such facts on the ground would be some of the metrics you were looking for yesterday. Another one would be the establishment of a sufficient Iraqi security presence in the less "roses and kittens" parts of the country. I do agree that the administration should define "sufficient" in that case. I don't think a timetable is wise though for reasons that should be obvious.
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    #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Let's look at it this way. He is a PNAC member of high order, it is his view that invading Iraq was the right thing to do. Plus not to mention he uses right leaning think tanks to make his points. If he was to use real Iraq country data then I would more willing to accept what is said here.

    Some of the things I would like to see explained in more detail would be such dubious quotes as:

    "there are five times more cars on the streets than in Saddam Hussein's day"
    Some registration numbers from Iraq's equal to a DMV would be nice. I find it very hard to believe that there are five(5) times more cars, anywhere, not just Iraq.

    "five times more telephone subscribers"
    Again a straight source besides facts that have been filtered through two very right sources would be great.

    I guess is what I am saying is I would prefer to make a decision formed from neutral sources, not people such as Max Boot who is a PNAC member(PNAC designed the whole policy of invading Iraq), and The Brookings Institute(A conservative think tank). Sorry.
    I am curious as to what source you would consider neutral? The vast majority of MSM leans toward the liberal side, even going as far as to flash an X over the vice presidents face during a telecast, frame the presidents face in an image with the headline of the worst disaster ever (referencing Katrina) and running non-verified stories (60 minutes). Fox and Drudge report lean conservative. The weekly newsmags will post whatever will sell the magazine that week.

    Both sides readily hold to the media source that lean toward their view and lable the other as non-valid (especailly when Drudge or Fox is used as a cite)
  14. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    I don't think a timetable is wise though for reasons that should be obvious.
    Agreed.
  15. NRG
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    #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Check out the (very heavily footnoted) report for yourself.

    http://www.brookings.edu/fp/saban/iraq/index.pdf

    Dismissing out-of-hand evidence contrary to a conclusion you've already drawn does not make for healthy debate.
    Ok. Here is what I found.

    As far as the five(5) times amount of cars on road stat:
    BS! I tracked down the number of cars. The Brookings Institute states that it has only doubled. Sources: TBI's footnote #108, Original source was a NYTimes article built of a quote from Maj. Gen. Jaffar Tomah Katham, head of the traffic police.

    I can only assume that this is misprinted since most of the other calims fall in line, except some which I will not claim to understand. But maybe some of the folks out there could help. Here are few of the things I would like cleared up.

    Per Capita Income vs. Per Capita GDP
    Per Capita GDP went up 100% but so did inflation, 90% since 2003. What effect if any does this have.

    I am sure there are some more questions I would be asking if I read all 46 pages, but as of right now I have not enough time to do so.
  16. NRG
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    #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    even going as far as to flash an X over the vice presidents face during a telecast
    Cardio, I love ya dude but you can't be serious! LOL LOL.

    As far as neutral sources I stated where I would like to get my facs from in my post. Iraqi goverment documents would be a good start.
  17. NRG
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    #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    I don't think a timetable is wise though for reasons that should be obvious.
    How would feel if the Iraqis asked for one?
  18. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by arabian
    Agreed.
    It is unacceptable to keep our people in harms way without defining objectives, a timetable for meeting those objectives, and metrics to report the progress of meeting the defined objectives. That's simple project management people.
  19. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    How would feel if the Iraqis asked for one?
    It seems they are requesting a time-table. And I think that we should provide one...in the form of T+X where T is the timetable and X is the point in time where the war's objectives are met.

    That is, we will leave, T months after X has been accomplished.
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