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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by arabian
    Did you stop mid paragraph?

    "We would continue helping Iraqis rebuild their nation's infrastructure and economy. We would encourage more international support for Iraq's democratic transition, and we would enable Iraqis to take increasing responsibility for their own security and stability."

    Hey, I know..... Let's help my friends baby daughter learn how to swim. If she doesn't pick it up by noon, leave her to figure it out.
    Rebuild the infrastructure & economy to what point? That's open ended and can go on forever.

    Encourage international support for Iraq's democratic transition? Fine, that does not require my people to keep standing around as a target 1000s of miles away.

    Enable Iraqis to take increasing responsibility for their own security and stability? This is the only item I can agree needs a bit more work, HOWEVER, there must be a timeline applied to it as I believe our presence in the country is causing most of the instability.
  2. #42  
    It would be interesting to see happens eventually when we do pull out. Will Al Queda attack innocent citizens there? There was a tremendous backlash in Jordan, where there is hardly a bastion of support for the United States.
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Rebuild the infrastructure & economy to what point? That's open ended and can go on forever.
    Until stability is attained. Open ended cuz this is not a standard "project" as you referred to it as typical business project management. Unless your employee/coworkers are trying to sabatoge the project and then let us see how you're able to finish the project in a timely fashion as projected.

    Encourage international support for Iraq's democratic transition? Fine, that does not require my people to keep standing around as a target 1000s of miles away.
    This will only happen if there is a stable country to support. If you are not there to affirm the stability, there will be no interest in saving a wounded horse.

    HOWEVER, there must be a timeline applied to it as I believe our presence in the country is causing most of the instability.
    It is causing the instability because the insurgency is about to lose a safe haven and a previously sympathetic country. What is there not to understand?

    Once you undertand why there is an "instability"..... and btw, prior to this the "stability" Iraq had was based on fear and oppression..... I think this fight is worth the change for the future...... the logical mind will understand that a printed, set-in-stone, and publicised timeline is a moronic idea.
  4. NRG
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    #44  
    Shiite, Sunni groups sign pact for US withdrawal timetable

    Baghdad, Dec. 9 (AP): A group of Shiite and Sunni parties has signed a declaration condemning terrorism, urging a timetable for the end of the US military presence, and vowing never to normalise relations with Israel.

    The parties to the "code of honour" included followers of radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, deputy Prime Minister Ahmad Chalabi, Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari, the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq and the Sunni Iraqi Consensus Front.

    The code also declared that resistance is a legitimate right and condemned "terrorism, violence, murder and kidnappings." The code is non-binding but it indicates what parties might choose to work together after the new parliament is elected next week.

    Officials said al-Sadr was the driving figure behind the yesterday's pact.

    http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus...0512091011.htm
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    THE DAUNTING LOGISTICS OF WITHDRAWAL
    http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/GL09Ak01.html

    By David Isenberg

    (David Isenberg, a senior analyst with the Washington-based British American Security Information Council (BASIC), has a wide background in arms control and national security issues.)

    Almost no consideration has been given to the question of just how fast the US can remove its forces from Iraq. But one can bet that logisticians in the Pentagon and Central Command planning cells have already been working on that question for some time.

    Military officers have a saying: "Amateurs talk about strategy, dilettantes talk about tactics, and professionals talk about logistics."

    On the plus side, the US military is experienced in moving forces out of the Persian Gulf region. In 1991 it was able to bring back from Kuwait to the US and Europe almost all of its over half million forces in a matter of months. Since then US military infrastructure has improved.

    Additionally, since the US invasion of Iraq in 2003, US forces have undergone three rotations into Iraq (the last one taking place from March to July this year) and are preparing for a fourth. They have lots of experience in moving troops and equipment, in divisionsize formations, out of Iraq.

    This time, however, the US would not be using the excellent ports and airfields in Saudi Arabia that it had access to in 1991. Nor were US troops battling an organized and deadly insurgency.

    MORE




    And now add what Gen. Clark forsees ----

    Conference: Terrorism, Security & America's Purpose: Towards a More Comprehensive Strategy (September 6, 2005)
    Remarks by General Wesley Clark: Former Supreme Allied Commander, NATO and former candidate for President of the United States
    Watch the videoclip

    Conference: Terrorism, Security & America's Purpose: Towards a More Comprehensive Strategy
    September 6, 2005
    Washington, D.C.

    snip

    Q: You spoke of how we need to change our course in Iraq before it's too late. My question is, and we've heard a lot about it this morning, about how our U.S. presence in Iraq is creating rather than vanquishing our enemies. Isn't it already too late? Isn't the course we need to adopt one of an orderly withdrawal?

    General Clark: Well, I would say that's not the right course to adopt, right now. And I want you to picture what would happen if we announced we're coming out. Now just imagine it, OK. The president, right after Labor Day, you know they always say never announce anything new before Labor Day, the president comes on national TV and says, "I've heard your thoughts, my fellow countrymen, we've lost 2,000 American's, spent 200 billion dollars and we're coming out. We're coming home."

    Well the men and women in the armed forces can do it. It will be a fighting withdrawal because the insurgents will be on the heels of the American columns as they come out. I can picture our men and women in those humvees and the dump trucks. You can see them taking fire and asking, "Should I shoot back, if I shoot back who's in that building?" I can see a long and bloody retreat. It will take several weeks to get out of there, four or five weeks. Or if you stage it, it will be bloodier and more difficult for longer. The insurgents will claim they won. But that claim will be disputed by Al Qaeda. They'll say that they drove us out.

    And the people who helped us in Iraq will be targeted. They already are targeted but they've got some assistance and support. That will go away quickly. These people will be running for their lives. 200, 300, 500, 800,000, a million. Everybody who ever talked to an American. We don't know where the boundary will be. But it won't be pretty.

    And when it's said that we are coming out, the political process that we've put in place will start to come apart, naturally. People are already preparing. There's plenty of private militias there. They've got scores to settle, territory to gain, cleansing to do, resources to capture and I'm sure the Kurds will decide, you know they aren't Arabs anyway, they'll go their own way. So I would expect a pretty rapid recourse not only to civil war but regional conflict, if we were to pull out and say 'we're coming home.' Now, that's my scenario. It reduces American prestige, influence and power all around the world.

    Q: These things have happened already, sir.

    General Clark: Well, not to the extent I think I've sketched it out. So what I'd say is, that there is a middle ground or a better ground, than staying the course or announcing a withdrawal. We need to change that course and use America's leadership and power not only militarily but diplomatically and politically in the region to become a focus for regional cooperation. It is not yet too late.

    MORE

    Looks like General Clark's window could be closing well within his 4 month timeframe...
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Shiite, Sunni groups sign pact for US withdrawal timetable

    Baghdad, Dec. 9 (AP): A group of Shiite and Sunni parties has signed a declaration condemning terrorism, urging a timetable for the end of the US military presence, and vowing never to normalise relations with Israel.

    The parties to the "code of honour" included followers of radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, deputy Prime Minister Ahmad Chalabi, Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari, the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq and the Sunni Iraqi Consensus Front.

    The code also declared that resistance is a legitimate right and condemned "terrorism, violence, murder and kidnappings." The code is non-binding but it indicates what parties might choose to work together after the new parliament is elected next week.

    Officials said al-Sadr was the driving figure behind the yesterday's pact.

    http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus...0512091011.htm
    declaration condemning terrorism: Very good? Now being non-binding, is it sincere or lip service? Also "The code also declared that resistance is a legitimate right", what does this mean...I doubt it means a hunger strike, chaining themselves to trees, or having organized sit-ins to protest.

    urging a timetable for the end of the US military presence: Depending on the details okay....at least this is better than trying to blow up the soldiers to leave....so this method of expressing their desires may a sign that the changes we are bringing to Iraq are actually taking hold.

    vowing never to normalise relations with Israel: Not good....but typical and not unexpected.
  6. NRG
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    #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    declaration condemning terrorism: Also "The code also declared that resistance is a legitimate right", what does this mean...I doubt it means a hunger strike, chaining themselves to trees, or having organized sit-ins to protest.
    Unfortunately, I think both you and I know what this means.
  7. #47  
    More good news (someone needs to post it...)

    Citizens Turn Over 'Butcher of Ramadi' to Iraqi, U.S. TroopsAmerican Forces Press Service

    WASHINGTON,Dec. 9, 2005–The terrorist known as "the Butcher of Ramadi" was detained today, turned in by local citizens in the provincial capital of Iraq's Anbar province, U.S. military officials in Iraq reported.
    Amir Khalaf Fanus -- listed third on a "high-value individuals" list of terrorists wanted by the 28th Infantry Division's 2nd Brigade Combat Team -- was wanted for criminal activities including murder and kidnapping. Ramadi citizens brought him to an Iraqi and U.S. forces military base in Ramadi, where he was taken into custody.
    Fanus was well known for his crimes against the local populace. He is the highest-ranking al Qaeda in Iraq member to be turned in to Iraqi and U.S. officials by local citizens.
    His capture is another indication that the local citizens tire of the terrorists' presence within their community, Multinational Force Iraq officials said, adding that Iraqi and U.S. forces have witnessed increasing signs of citizens fighting the terrorists in Ramadi as the Dec. 15 national elections draw near.
    Officials said 1,200 more Iraqi soldiers recently have been posted in Ramadi. About 1,100 Iraqi special police commandos and a mechanized Iraqi army company completed their planned movement into the city. This plan has Iraqi security forces assuming more of the security responsibilities from the U.S. forces, officials said. As in other locations, as security improves, Iraqi police also will be introduced gradually.
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  8. #48  
    Unlike the phantom poll cited by others (BARYE!) on this board, this is an actual poll of Iraqis, conducted by a reputable (if left-leaning) group of news organizations with little extras like "a methodology" and "accountability".

    Full story here.

    PDF version with questionnaire & results

    Detailed methodological statement

    It's not all good news, but the bad isn't terrible and the good is quite encouraging. Hardly the wasteland some would have us believe.

    Uh, and 80% of Iraqis do NOT want us to leave, in case you're wondering...
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    #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Unlike the phantom poll cited by others (BARYE!) on this board, this is an actual poll of Iraqis, conducted by a reputable (if left-leaning) group of news organizations with little extras like "a methodology" and "accountability".

    Full story here.

    PDF version with questionnaire & results

    Detailed methodological statement

    It's not all good news, but the bad isn't terrible and the good is quite encouraging. Hardly the wasteland some would have us believe.

    Uh, and 80% of Iraqis do NOT want us to leave, in case you're wondering...

    VERY interesting, hobbes. thankyou. really kind of puts things back into perspective, doesnt it?
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by vw2002
    VERY interesting, hobbes. thankyou. really kind of puts things back into perspective, doesnt it?
    I'm not Hobbes, but I'll take that as a complement! You're welcome!
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  11. #51  
    I don't mind taking credit though!
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    #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    I'm not Hobbes, but I'll take that as a complement! You're welcome!
    woops! lol. my apologies to both you guys!
  13.    #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Rebuild the infrastructure & economy to what point? That's open ended and can go on forever.

    Encourage international support for Iraq's democratic transition? Fine, that does not require my people to keep standing around as a target 1000s of miles away.

    Enable Iraqis to take increasing responsibility for their own security and stability? This is the only item I can agree needs a bit more work, HOWEVER, there must be a timeline applied to it as I believe our presence in the country is causing most of the instability.
    Whooo Hooo! LOL! ROFLMAOPIMP! DA calls military personnel "my people"! HA HA HA HA! Oh, Geez! LOL! Oh, man! I gotta say that's the best laugh I've had online in a while.
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Unlike the phantom poll cited by others (BARYE!) on this board, this is an actual poll of Iraqis, conducted by a reputable (if left-leaning) group of news organizations with little extras like "a methodology" and "accountability".
    it was almost worth the 50 cents this hour of web time is costing me in Cambodia to read that... (almost )
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Whooo Hooo! LOL! ROFLMAOPIMP! DA calls military personnel "my people"! HA HA HA HA! Oh, Geez! LOL! Oh, man! I gotta say that's the best laugh I've had online in a while.
    You think my feelings of personal responsibility for what happens to my country's military is funny?
  16.    #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    You think my feelings of personal responsibility for what happens to my country's military is funny?
    No. I think they're fake.
  17.    #57  
    The Truth On the Ground

    When I told people that I was getting ready to head back to Iraq for my third tour, the usual response was a frown, a somber head shake and even the occasional "I'm sorry." When I told them that I was glad to be going back, the response was awkward disbelief, a fake smile and a change of subject. The common wisdom seems to be that Iraq is an unwinnable war and a quagmire and that the only thing left to decide is how quickly we withdraw. Depending on which poll you believe, about 60 percent of Americans think it's time to pull out of Iraq.

    How is it, then, that 64 percent of U.S. military officers think we will succeed if we are allowed to continue our work? Why is there such a dramatic divergence between American public opinion and the upbeat assessment of the men and women doing the fighting?

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...121301502.html
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    How is it, then, that 64 percent of U.S. military officers think we will succeed if we are allowed to continue our work? Why is there such a dramatic divergence between American public opinion and the upbeat assessment of the men and women doing the fighting?
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...121301502.html
    Because a lot of people have their own opinions on things they know nothing about? I've emailed several times a close friend of mine who's job is to train the iraqi military to defend themselves. I've never felt any negativity in his emails. He doesn't like it there, but definately would not want to come home a failure (and leaving before the mission is complete would be just that...a failure). If I remember correctly, his words were, "Hey, this is their sh!thole, I'm just trying to give it back to them". So no...he doesn't enjoy his time there, but he knows why he's there...and just FYI, he's special forces in the army....with a wife at home.
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    No. I think they're fake.
    Don't ever presume to know my feelings.
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by RicoM
    Because a lot of people have their own opinions on things they know nothing about? I've emailed several times a close friend of mine who's job is to train the iraqi military to defend themselves. I've never felt any negativity in his emails. He doesn't like it there, but definately would not want to come home a failure (and leaving before the mission is complete would be just that...a failure). If I remember correctly, his words were, "Hey, this is their sh!thole, I'm just trying to give it back to them". So no...he doesn't enjoy his time there, but he knows why he's there...and just FYI, he's special forces in the army....with a wife at home.
    By ignoring the Powell doctrine, the conflict automatically becomes unwinable.
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