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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    I can only assume that this is misprinted since most of the other calims fall in line, except some which I will not claim to understand. But maybe some of the folks out there could help.
    Agreed. The info linked by arabian also shows a doubling of the cars on the road in Iraq. Still fairly impressive, IMHO.
    Here are few of the things I would like cleared up. Per Capita Income vs. Per Capita GDP
    Per-capita income is average income earned per individual Iraqi.
    Per-capita GDP is average amount of the GDP (total Iraqi economic output) per individual Iraqi.
    Per Capita GDP went up 100% but so did inflation, 90% since 2003. What effect if any does this have.
    Generally speaking, it means that although economic output went up (as did individual income), so did prices (most likely as a result of Saddam-era price controls being lifted) - meaning that growing Iraqi income could buy less. At any rate, I hope it's clear that the Brookings study is not fundamentally biased and should not have been dismissed out-of-hand.
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  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    It is unacceptable to keep our people in harms way without defining objectives, a timetable for meeting those objectives, and metrics to report the progress of meeting the defined objectives. That's simple project management people.
    Nowhere in my project manager's certification exam was there anything about getting shot at. Can we agree that war should not be managed exactly the same as an enterprise software upgrade?

    What should be obvious is that if we provide a date certain when we will leave, the insurgents will simply wait us out and reactivate as soon as we leave. Not wise.

    We should do as Shopharim suggests and provide a timeframe after certain goals are met within which we will leave. In other words, an event-driven timeframe.

    In other words, when the job is done - we leave.

    Defining when the job will be done is something the administration needs to do a better job of.
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  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    I do agree that the administration should define "sufficient" in that case.
    Agreed. I think this is where the Admin is losing the American people on Iraq. The vagueness of the whole thing.
  4. NRG
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    #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Agreed. The info linked by arabian also shows a doubling of the cars on the road in Iraq. Still fairly impressive, IMHO.
    Agreed, impressive nonetheless(sp?).


    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Per-capita income is average income earned per individual Iraqi.
    Per-capita GDP is average amount of the GDP (total Iraqi economic output) per individual Iraqi.Generally speaking, it means that although economic output went up (as did individual income), so did prices (most likely as a result of Saddam-era price controls being lifted) - meaning that growing Iraqi income could buy less.
    This is what I thought because this is what happened or is happening. So from my viewpoint Max Boot was spinning the article/study.

    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    At any rate, I hope it's clear that the Brookings study is not fundamentally biased and should not have been dismissed out-of-hand.
    I did not dismiss it, I just wanted it substantiated.

    Thanks for the clarification on GDP vs. Income.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    What should be obvious is that if we provide a date certain when we will leave, the insurgents will simply wait us out and reactivate as soon as we leave. Not wise.
    I feel they're doing so anyway for the most part. A civil war is being fought under the surface and will come out when the U.S. troops are outta there.
  6. NRG
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    #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    It seems they are requesting a time-table. And I think that we should provide one...in the form of T+X where T is the timetable and X is the point in time where the war's objectives are met.

    That is, we will leave, T months after X has been accomplished.
    Hear, Hear.
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    #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Cardio, I love ya dude but you can't be serious! LOL LOL.

    As far as neutral sources I stated where I would like to get my facs from in my post. Iraqi goverment documents would be a good start.
    Why do ask if I am serious? It happened, CNN verified it happened, they blamed it on a computer bug (convienant). I have done a fair amount of live video editing and video composition as a hobbiest and I have managed to prevent one image from overiding a previous image. You would think that a major news orgainzation would be able to cover a speech by the Vice President without haveing image superimpositoning occur. If this happened to say Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton there would be hell to pay.

    My apologies on the source, I missed it in my first read.
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    #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Agreed. I think this is where the Admin is losing the American people on Iraq. The vagueness of the whole thing.
    Agreed, however I also think a lot of it has to do with the reporting of the situations. I hold to my belief that the media sensationalizes to sell its product, nothing wrong with selling your product it's the people that do not verify what they hear or see that are to blame.

    Yes objectives should be stated, maybe not to the public for security reasons, but to the military leaders.
  9. NRG
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    #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Why do ask if I am serious? It happened, CNN verified it happened, they blamed it on a computer bug (convenient). I have done a fair amount of live video editing and video composition as a hobbyist and I have managed to prevent one image from overriding a previous image. You would think that a major news organization would be able to cover a speech by the Vice President without having image superimpositioning occur. If this happened to say Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton there would be hell to pay.

    My apologies on the source, I missed it in my first read.
    From my understanding is that "X" signifies to people in the control room it is time to switch to a filler. Example: Bush is talking about levees, someone in the control room puts that "X" up. This is supposed to only be seen on the control room monitors.

    For you to imply that they put an "X' on Cheney because they are the Liberal Media is stuff for



    Plus it has happened on Fox before, but there was no stink raised over it. I guess because CNN is outside the "Conservative Circle of Trust".

    PS. Could I suggest the Google Toolbar to you? It has got a spell checker on there and it works great. My posts since installing it have been relatively error free as far as spelling goes. Now, if I could find one that would fix grammar, then I could be in bliss.
    Last edited by NRG; 11/23/2005 at 02:10 PM.
  10. NRG
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    #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio

    My apologies on the source, I missed it in my first read.
    No biggy.
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    #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    From my understanding is that "X" signifies to people in the control room it is time to switch to a filler. Example: Bush is talking about levees, someone in the control room puts that "X" up. This is supposed to only be seen on the control room monitors.

    For you to imply that they put an "X' on Cheney because they are the Liberal Media is stuff for



    Plus it has happened on Fox before.
    OK, I'll give them one big coincidence on this one, but I still have to ask why would they change scenes in control room during the speech, they did not even change camera views did they?

    And, trust me, I do not follow a party affiliation with blind loyalty.
  12. NRG
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    #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio

    And, trust me, I do not follow a party affiliation with blind loyalty.
    Hope I did not imply that on my last post.
  13. #33  
    I've only had time to just skim this thread so maybe this has already been addressed -- (these "facts" all come from using my "brain's internal google" -- so these stats will no doubt be questioned)

    Saddamm had high import duties etc. on cars -- which were lifted increasing availibility, demand, and their importation

    teachers etc. have had major salary increases

    some Iraqis are making tons of money -- more than before -- American contracts that primarily benefit junior's and cheney's cronys and favorites (and even those contracts gotten giving brides) -- still throw off billions for Iraqis at various levels.
    All expenditures -- even corrupt wasted expenditures -- feed money into the iraqi economy.

    but unless you are in a specific sector (construction, security etc) of the iraqi economy that has connections to the american money, you are in worse shape than before the war

    Iraqi economy bottom line: more than half of Iraqis are unemployed -- far worse than before the war

    electric availability is significantly less overall than before the war (expecially in Bagdad)

    tap water remains often undrinkable

    oil production s less than before the war

    Except for the Kurdish nirth where things were already prospering before the war, the Iraqi economy has been effectively destroyed by our invaison.

    People fear walking the streets, fear letting their kids play outside, fear going to a barber to get a shave.
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  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    I've only had time to just skim this thread so maybe this has already been addressed -- (these "facts" all come from using my "brain's internal google" -- so these stats will no doubt be questioned)

    Saddamm had high import duties etc. on cars -- which were lifted increasing availibility, demand, and their importation

    teachers etc. have had major salary increases

    some Iraqis are making tons of money -- more than before -- American contracts that primarily benefit junior's and cheney's cronys and favorites (and even those contracts gotten giving brides) -- still throw off billions for Iraqis at various levels.
    All expenditures -- even corrupt wasted expenditures -- feed money into the iraqi economy.

    but unless you are in a specific sector (construction, security etc) of the iraqi economy that has connections to the american money, you are in worse shape than before the war

    Iraqi economy bottom line: more than half of Iraqis are unemployed -- far worse than before the war

    electric availability is significantly less overall than before the war (expecially in Bagdad)

    tap water remains often undrinkable

    oil production s less than before the war

    Except for the Kurdish nirth where things were already prospering before the war, the Iraqi economy has been effectively destroyed by our invaison.

    People fear walking the streets, fear letting their kids play outside, fear going to a barber to get a shave.
    You're absolutely right: "these "facts" all come from using my "brain's internal google" -- so these stats will no doubt be questioned". Citations of actual sources would be better than recollections of Daily Kos readings...
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  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    It is unacceptable to keep our people in harms way without defining objectives, a timetable for meeting those objectives, and metrics to report the progress of meeting the defined objectives. That's simple project management people.
    Allow me to breakdown in a simpler format using this as an example:

    When I was 16 my parents were preparing for a week-long trip. They were counting down, as was I. I didn't have the party when they were there, I did all this when they left.... according to the "timetable". Had my parents appointed a person of authority to monitor and watch me, we wouldn't have destroyed the house. I shouldn't have been left alone... only once I had reached a level of maturity and resposibility. Alongside destroying the house, my friends and I trashed the yard and disturbed the neighbors all around us. Although I had this idea in mind.... having the party, my friends also contibuted to the delinquency and influenced me to go further in the chaos we created that night.

    Whether you agreed with the war or not one should understand what the consequences would be to create a so-called timetable. When the job is done, it's done.

    You really think there are no objectives? It's lame to assume that we have generals and troops without an objective. They'd be aimlessly roaming around picking their noses.... which they are not.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by arabian
    Allow me to breakdown in a simpler format using this as an example:

    When I was 16 my parents were preparing for a week-long trip. They were counting down, as was I. I didn't have the party when they were there, I did all this when they left.... according to the "timetable". Had my parents appointed a person of authority to monitor and watch me, we wouldn't have destroyed the house. I shouldn't have been left alone... only once I had reached a level of maturity and resposibility. Alongside destroying the house, my friends and I trashed the yard and disturbed the neighbors all around us. Although I had this idea in mind.... having the party, my friends also contibuted to the delinquency and influenced me to go further in the chaos we created that night.

    Whether you agreed with the war or not one should understand what the consequences would be to create a so-called timetable. When the job is done, it's done.

    You really think there are no objectives? It's lame to assume that we have generals and troops without an objective. They'd be aimlessly roaming around picking their noses.... which they are not.

    Define the objective. As far as I know, all stated objectives have been accomplished.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Define the objective. As far as I know, all stated objectives have been accomplished.
    I watch the news and didn't know we have completed all objectives.... please show us a link or something we can read.

    BTW:
    "A little over a year ago, I spoke to the nation and described our coalition's goals in Iraq. I said that America's mission in Iraq is to defeat an enemy and give strength to a friend -- a free, representative government that is an ally in the war on terror, and a beacon of hope in a part of the world that is desperate for reform. I outlined the steps we would take to achieve this goal: We would hand authority over to a sovereign Iraqi government. We would help Iraqis hold free elections by January 2005. We would continue helping Iraqis rebuild their nation's infrastructure and economy. We would encourage more international support for Iraq's democratic transition, and we would enable Iraqis to take increasing responsibility for their own security and stability. "

    Some have been accomplished but not all. The toughest takes the longest.
    Last edited by arabian; 11/23/2005 at 04:03 PM.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    As far as I know, all stated objectives have been accomplished.
    "As far as I know" means "I'm not sure but I'm gonna throw out the comment anyway.... if you care to oppose, do so.... I'll see if I was really right by fishing for the proof afterwards."
    Last edited by arabian; 11/23/2005 at 03:59 PM.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by arabian
    "A little over a year ago, I spoke to the nation and described our coalition's goals in Iraq. I said that America's mission in Iraq is to defeat an enemy and give strength to a friend -- a free, representative government that is an ally in the war on terror, and a beacon of hope in a part of the world that is desperate for reform. I outlined the steps we would take to achieve this goal: We would hand authority over to a sovereign Iraqi government. We would help Iraqis hold free elections by January 2005. We would continue helping Iraqis rebuild their nation's infrastructure and economy. We would encourage more international support for Iraq's democratic transition, and we would enable Iraqis to take increasing responsibility for their own security and stability."
    Mission accomplished. Elections have been held and purple fingers raised. Arm the police forces and say "thanks for the ride".
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Mission accomplished. Elections have been held and purple fingers raised. Arm the police forces and say "thanks for the ride".
    Did you stop mid paragraph?

    "We would continue helping Iraqis rebuild their nation's infrastructure and economy. We would encourage more international support for Iraq's democratic transition, and we would enable Iraqis to take increasing responsibility for their own security and stability."

    Hey, I know..... Let's help my friends baby daughter learn how to swim. If she doesn't pick it up by noon, leave her to figure it out.
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