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  1. efudd's Avatar
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    #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by xenophonite
    We've had this discussion and it seems that in dense metro areas, this may be moot. There are usually many towers in denser areas for the purposes of adding capacity as much as coverage or penetration. If you look at Sprint/Verizon NYC maps, they have towers all over the place blocks apart, not miles. When you add that many for capacity reasons, the building penetration issues are automatically not an issue.

    1900 might have penetration issues in certain cases but 800 doesn't have as much capacity per tower as 1900 so more have to be added for different reasons, the net result is generally the same.

    My brother in NYC uses Sprint and his antenna once broke. He said he never had issues in NYC with the busted antenna but when he traveled to smaller towns, he dropped calls. He ended up getting a new phone and has had no dropped call issues since. The huge number of towers in NYC pretty much makes penetration issues moot when more are needed for capacity reasons, whether 800 or 1900.

    absolutely in dense areas it would be moot if they all need to double up towers to get enough capacity then they are close enough to not matter anyway.

    I'm not sure what you mean that an 800 tower doesnt have as much capacity as 1900. I'd like to learn can you explain?

    I cant speak to getting a signal inside buildings in NYC. I live and owrk in the 'burbs. So to me the 800 /1900 issue is night day only inside office buildings. I had sprint for 6 or 7 years. I may be a cartoon charcater but I'm no ***** I wouldn't have stayed with sprint that long if they service sucked. I generally find it perfectly fine. I would have kept them if their pricing for medium sized businesses was as awesome as it was for small businesses. (fortunately my business has grown). But as I got a larger account the pricing structure between VZW and SPSCS wasn't as great so i figured i'd give them a go for an extra couple % on the bill.

    In my travels I only really had 2 dead spots with sprint- one along a rural county road, one at my partners house in the sticks. VZW fixed the one on the county road but my partner is just SOL in the sticks regardless of carrier- cant even get an analog signal at his house (its good though it keeps his kids from running the minutes up on our plac- LOL). But the big thing is coverage inside suburban office campuses. I'm typing now using bluetooth DUN from my labtop with 4 full bars on VZW when previously with sprint i couldnt even place a call in this building. So it matters. THere are 5 other similar building that my company services. In all 6 buldings vzw outperforms spcs to varrying degrees (this one is the best)- but in all six there is an absoulte inprovement. No if's, and's, or but's.

    So all and all- I find spcs and vzw to be very similar EXCEPT inside large buildings. Based upon what my friend who sells the gear to both spcs and vzw, that is to be expected. To be the same in suburbia- then 1900 would need to probably have 2 or 4 times as many towers as 800 and there is apparently just no reason to do that for capacity- so it will be better for some time. Perhaps changing the nextel towers to spcs (I think they are in the 800mhz band) will make the point moot but the reality is now there is a difference if you need coverage inside large buildings in the 'burbs. (I wonder if they wont also just shut down some of the 1900 towers when the nextels come on line- i cant see them needing to add 50% capacity- they are basically fine now expcept for the indoor problem- and i cant imagine if would take 50% more towers to fix that)

    And i'm not positive that 800 and 1900 are even equal in NYC- I know that there is no sprint in any of the rail or auto tunnels but verizon has them all coverered. There's only like 10 so i dont know why SPCS doesnt just put cells in them if it could be done. They get hammered in ads for it all the time.

    The one thing that did annoy me with sprint (or actually annoys me now after the fact) is- I paid for the free roaming option- yet in all of these buildings and tunnels I basically never roamed even though i had no sprint service and verizon appears to be fine- makes me think the Sprint PRL keeps people off verizon's towers in alot of places where they shouldn't.
  2. #22  
    ^I was using NYC as an example of the most density but when you consider CDMA towers transmit over 18 mile radius with no obstruction, even suburbs have many more towers within an 18 mile range in the burbs (both Sprint/Verizon). Towers will be added in the burbs too more for capacity reasons than coverage range. Mountain areas tend to be a bigger challenge for all carriers than buildings.

    I live in a hi-rise that is solid concrete and Sprint works fine. I have both Verizon and Sprint EVDO cards (testing for work) and Sprint is consistently 100-400 kilobits faster. Both Sprint/Verizon cell sites are at same location. The phone's generation of chipset makes a difference too. The Treo 650 is the first phone that works in my condo elevator. Others in my building can't get their phone to work with any carrier in the elevator, which is several layers of concrete.

    On 800mhz capacity less than 1900 per tower, do a google search. There are a few articles about that. 800mhz has less spectrum. So more 800mhz towers are needed than 1900 for a different reason. The net result is about the same. Sprint/Verizon both have ~21,000 towers each and have density of towers for different reasons. I still can't find the 800/1900 tower ratio that Verizon has. That would be an interesting stat.

    For those who use data, Sprint's $10-15/month unlimited looks pretty attractive and outweighs the penetration issues in most cases. Sprint's EVDO for smartphones is also planned to be only $30/month for unlimited (and DUN capable to laptop). How much is Verizon's unlimited EVDO for smartphones? Does Verizon allow DUN?
    Sprint Pre, Mugen 2800mah battery
  3. #23  
    BTW, when did you last use Sprint? Sprint went from 14,000 to 21,000 towers in just a few years.
    Sprint Pre, Mugen 2800mah battery
  4. efudd's Avatar
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    #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by xenophonite
    ^I was using NYC as an example of the most density but when you consider CDMA towers transmit over 18 mile radius with no obstruction, even suburbs have many more towers within an 18 mile range in the burbs (both Sprint/Verizon). Towers will be added in the burbs too more for capacity reasons than coverage range. Mountain areas tend to be a bigger challenge for all carriers than buildings.
    CDMA really is not a good description of how far a signal goes. Its irrelevant really. It just is a way they move data over radio waves. A PCS tower has one range and a Cellular tower has another. Its related to power and frequency- that's all. If It's AMPS, CDMA, or TDMA, or GSM, or EVDO has nothign to do with what the signal strenth is at any point. (differnt data schemes might be better able to deal with lower signal strength i would guess)

    Agreed about terrain- the 2 dead spots i talked about above- one was in a valley, and the other on the hill.


    Quote Originally Posted by xenophonite

    I live in a hi-rise that is solid concrete and Sprint works fine. I have both Verizon and Sprint EVDO cards (testing for work) and Sprint is consistently 100-400 kilobits faster. Both Sprint/Verizon cell sites are at same location. The phone's generation of chipset makes a difference too. The Treo 650 is the first phone that works in my condo elevator. Others in my building can't get their phone to work with any carrier in the elevator, which is several layers of concrete.
    2 differnt things- First i never said 1900 CANT work in plenty of buildings. It depends on a million variable. But if you put up one tower and it had 800 and 1900 and then went into a particular building a good distance away that was only served by that singal tower then the 800 would be a better signal- fact.

    Chipset makes a huge differnce too, antenna, probably even the software.

    ABout your data speeds with EVDO- I dont beleive that has much to do with the signal strenth at all- its digital so its there or not. THe implementation and other variables matter. You've pointed many of them out- sprint apparently has more bandwidth per tower. I pointed out that verizon has many more digital subs per tower then sprint. I THINK (but dont know) that the way that EVDO is so fast is the phone is given a bunch of channels to use concurrently- so perhaps verizon limits the max allowed channels mor ethen sprint becasue of their other flaws. But again EVDO has nothing to do with radio coverage.


    Quote Originally Posted by xenophonite
    On 800mhz capacity less than 1900 per tower, do a google search. There are a few articles about that. 800mhz has less spectrum. So more 800mhz towers are needed than 1900 for a different reason. The net result is about the same. Sprint/Verizon both have ~21,000 towers each and have density of towers for different reasons. I still can't find the 800/1900 tower ratio that Verizon has. That would be an interesting stat.
    interesting- I'll need to google- you can leasrn somethign new everyday. I too wonder what the VZ ratios are.

    I think the 21,000 towers get you difffernt things- in more populous areas, I think its moot, but when you get out into the boonies i suspect verizon has more area covered- just looking at their coverage maps makes me thing that. When you start gettign out of hte dense areas, there are alot of sprint maps that look like they just cover the interstates plus or minus so many miles eitehr way. But i dont know real world honestly about the boonies. I live and work in NJ and really only travel anymore to major cities or tourist areas.




    Quote Originally Posted by xenophonite

    For those who use data, Sprint's $10-15/month unlimited looks pretty attractive and outweighs the penetration issues in most cases. Sprint's EVDO for smartphones is also planned to be only $30/month for unlimited (and DUN capable to laptop). How much is Verizon's unlimited EVDO for smartphones? Does Verizon allow DUN?
    Great points- I was just talking about coverage- period. What people decide is important to them is totally differnt. For some the way cheaper sprint rates do outweigh the penetration issues- for others it might not be so important (if you lived in a building that could only get 800mhz would you think the cheap rate outweighs penetration?) For me the way cheapre rates outweighed the tiny amount of better coverage i can get with vzw. But when the pricing becasme similar for my business then the additonal cost wasn't that big a deal anymore. (side note- from what i understand Nextel is the king of business and sprint is the king of personal- maybe some of the nextel thinking rubs off on the sprint pricing structure. To me its goofy that they would be so much better for family plans then everyone else but they dont keep the margins the same compared to other providers ofr business. if they did I'd go back probably) I think your real world experience with EVDO is very telling also. I dont KNOW what EVDO costs on VZW- but i guess it might even be $85 'cause that's what the charge for an evdo card. If they allow DUN I dont know- if they charge less then the datacard's $85 then probably not...
  5. #25  
    Good conversation.

    I was pointing out EVDO performance in my building not as a case for signal strength but that even in a concrete building, signal strength was not a factor and performance was not impacted significantly.

    It will be interesting to see what happens when Sprint expands 14K towers via Nextel towers in the next couple of years. Given capacity/penetration reasons generally even out, Verizon would still need to add many towers to keep up. Like I said in another thread, the cost to add a new location is not equipment but community approval and leasing of location. It's very costly. I wonder if Sprint has exclusivity rights for the towers that they lease? They would be smart to have such an arrangement, especially with the Nextel locations.
    Sprint Pre, Mugen 2800mah battery
  6.    #26  
    I sell real estate to tower companies and the RE cost alone is staggering, 5 million for a five year lease in a populated area isn't uncommon. Farmers around here lease the property for $3500 a month for a smaller tower with a 1/2 acre foot print.
  7. efudd's Avatar
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    #27  
    wow. thats some cash.

    It will be interesting to see what goes on with sprint and all the new towers. It seems like way overkill to me. Seriously, i think they do a "good enough" job today. Maybe a tiny percentage below verizon which is darn near close to perfect for my area (my friend at lucnet says there will be no such thing as a perfect network- its not worth the cost to the providers). So I'd think by adding a few thousand more towers sprint could outdo everyone else. So it seems ot me like they are adding 10k more for no reason. THey must have some wild plans. Perhaps EVDO uses more RF space so they need more towers- just a WAG?

    About towers- I dont know if its universal but here in NJ there have been legal rulings that the cell phone companies must cooperate in sharing towers or they can get their permits denied for new towers. So I literally believe that carrier X can demand carrier Y allow them to share a tower. It's very rare in these parts to see a tower without at least 3 sets of antenna's. sometimes there are 5 or even 6 sets.

    I even remember seeing press releases that some providers cooperate in siting towers in order to save costs.

    Thinking about it- I guess the rest of the country isnt the same- becasue if it were I cant imagine that nextel would have 14,000 towers that didnt already have sprint stuff on them.
  8. efudd's Avatar
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    #28  
    Went searching to read about provider plans for new towers to try and figure out what sprint is thinking.

    As as aside here’s a link to an old deal that sprint and ATT had to construct towers together.

    http://www.wirelessweek.com/article/CA520145.html

    also saw forum type references that sprint and verizon cooperate in some regions.

    What’s odd is I stumbled upon a bunch of articles about the deal sprint made to sell its towers. Saw different numbers bandied about 6,400 6,500 and 6,600 for the number of towers. Several of the articles imply that that is the total amount of towers that they OWN. So presumably the other 14,000+ are co-located on someone else’s towers. Perhaps the inbreeding on the towers is really insanely prevalent?

    Is that possible?

    If sprint owns 6k or their 20k locations and we assume the rest of the carriers are similar- there might only like 30 or 40,000 total towers in the whole country?

    Trying to find numbers is like pulling teeth!

    Some other interesting info- I saw reference to the 800 has less room then 1900. Saw a post that 800mhz has 8 channels where 1900 has 12. Apparently for EVDO they need to dedicate an entire channel to data. In more densely populated areas it said that carriers might already have all 8 channels used for voice at 800mhz. Becasue of this Verizon is only rolling EVDO out on their 1900 network- so that might explain the reason for only fractional coverage. Also would mean that RF wise with EVDO Sprint and Verizon would have the same issues indoors. Mind you it all came from a internet forum but it makes sense.
  9. #29  
    SPRINT BLOWS! I urge you not to go to sprint. I was actually about start a new thread seeing who is the best carrier. I'm so irrate right now (I just got back from their so called "service center"). I've checked around the forums and came to the conclusion that I'm having that battery issue with my t600 where I can't answer incoming calls, make outgoing calls that last longer then 4 secs before saying no signal, and getting voicemail days late. But every thing works fine when it's plugged in the wall or car charger.

    So first I tried calling their "extrodinary" customer service dept. and specifically asked when my warrenty ran out but they assured me that all I needed was a PRL update. So after I finally found a clean signal and got the update, my phone still didn't work. So I called back and asked once again when does my warrenty run out, they told me it's almost about to end but I should be good if I went to their service center. So I went and waited an hour. So I explained the situation and said I KNOW for sure it's an equipment issue, specifically the battery. He looked up my info and said "oh I'm sorry, your warrenty just ran out a week ago." That seriously pissed me off since I tried getting that info over phone (could've save myself an hour and ate lunch today).

    I should've thought about it more when I bought this phone but now it's very key to my business and I since I'm not home much, this is my home phone too, so not being able to make or recieve calls would really hinder me. So he goes back to the computer turns up to me and says you have 75 credit or you can wait till november and get 150 in credit. What part of this sounds right at all? I pay 400 bucks for a phone a year ago and now I have to buy a new one and be happy that you just dicked me? His response was well you can cancel your service and start a new one with a new number and get the instant rebate. Why don't peopel think! Ok sure lets say I do that, now I save another 50 bucks but now I have spend money getting new business cards and change my number that I have on record at all my vendors? What part of that makes sense? So my options are live with a broken phone, wait 4 months for a 150 rebate, or get buy a new treo with only a 75 rebate. Screw that, if I have to pay over 3 bills for a new treo, its going to be a t650, and I'd get a way better deal if I just signed up with another carrier.

    So if anyone can suggest another carrier or some way to get sprint to not be so dumb, let me know.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by 420experience
    I should've thought about it more when I bought this phone but now it's very key to my business and I since I'm not home much, this is my home phone too, so not being able to make or recieve calls would really hinder me.
    Yes, you should've thought about it more! Insurance, dude...insurance!

    Quote Originally Posted by 420experience
    So he goes back to the computer turns up to me and says you have 75 credit or you can wait till november and get 150 in credit. What part of this sounds right at all? I pay 400 bucks for a phone a year ago and now I have to buy a new one and be happy that you just dicked me?.....Why don't peopel think!
    Ya got me! If you had insurance you could take it into the store and pay $10 to get another one right then and there....or if they didn't have one wait a couple days to get it for the same price. It's called Total Equipment Protection!

    Quote Originally Posted by 420experience
    Ok sure lets say I do that, now I save another 50 bucks but now I have spend money getting new business cards and change my number that I have on record at all my vendors? What part of that makes sense?
    Not much, really. How are you gonna have a non-insured Treo and use it as your personal AND business phone, no less??

    Quote Originally Posted by 420experience
    So my options are live with a broken phone, wait 4 months for a 150 rebate, or get buy a new treo with only a 75 rebate. Screw that, if I have to pay over 3 bills for a new treo, its going to be a t650, and I'd get a way better deal if I just signed up with another carrier.

    So if anyone can suggest another carrier or some way to get sprint to not be so dumb, let me know.
    Sprint did nothing wrong here. As for the other carriers...they suck when it comes to data prices (and voice prices, too). Just be sure to insure your uber-expensive phone next time, eh?? State Farm and a few other insurance agencies will insure any phone with a $400 value or more for only $30/yr and there's no deductible.

    P.S. - Your best solution is to get an insured Sprint 650 (then just sign another contract in 4 mo), ya dingleberry!!
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by efudd
    It will be interesting to see what goes on with sprint and all the new towers. It seems like way overkill to me. Seriously, i think they do a "good enough" job today. Maybe a tiny percentage below verizon which is darn near close to perfect for my area (my friend at lucnet says there will be no such thing as a perfect network- its not worth the cost to the providers). So I'd think by adding a few thousand more towers sprint could outdo everyone else. So it seems ot me like they are adding 10k more for no reason. THey must have some wild plans. Perhaps EVDO uses more RF space so they need more towers- just a WAG?
    As for wild plans, I remember reading in another thread here that the whole Sprint Nextel merger went down because WiMax uses the same frequency as Nextel towers. So...Sprint's getting ready for post-evdo rf already! I love Sprint!!! Always ahead of the game!

    If the WiMax thing is really true or not....I dunno. Just passin' on what I heard.

    Oh yea...awesome thread, BTW!!
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm
    I love Sprint!!! Always ahead of the game!
    Umm - was that sarcasm?
  13. #33  
    The way I fell sprint wronged me was the fact that I called specifically asking for warranty information but instead they gave me some generic solution that did nothing but delay me enough to just miss out on my warranty. And as for insuring the phone, I don't know about you but I expect something that cost this much money to last longer then a year and a week wouldnt' you agree. I know my crappy 2 megapixal camera I bought 5 years ago still works fine and it cost the same. I just think all sprint phones conveniently malfunction when the warranty is about to run out. Call that what you want but I call it bad business.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe
    Umm - was that sarcasm?
    Absolutely not....how could you mistake that for sarcasm?
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by 420experience
    And as for insuring the phone, I don't know about you but I expect something that cost this much money to last longer then a year and a week wouldnt' you agree.
    I expect my phone to last longer than a year and a week also...and my Treos have and will, I'm sure. But you get insurance for stuff like breakage, accidentally misplacing it, or someone stealing it. If you had planned on something like that happening...you'd have TEP (mentioned above), where you'd only have to pay $10 for another phone due to something that broke under "extended warranty" terms. Now you know, I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by 420experience
    I know my crappy 2 megapixal camera I bought 5 years ago still works fine and it cost the same.
    Did you use your 2MP camera as the leg of your company? When it comes to homes, cars, businesses, etc....you're prolly gonna pay big if you don't pay for insurance!

    Quote Originally Posted by 420experience
    Call that what you want but I call it bad business.
    I don't think that's bad business...that's just business. They're doing their job. If a cop arrests you for smokin' pot...are you gonna complain that he was doing his job?? You prolly would since you're getting the bitter end of the deal...but the only person to blame is yourself (or possibly the government...but that's a whole nother story).
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    #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by 420experience
    SPRINT BLOWS! I urge you not to go to sprint....

    So first I tried calling their "extrodinary" customer service dept. and specifically asked when my warrenty ran out but they assured me that all I needed was a PRL update. So after I finally found a clean signal and got the update, my phone still didn't work. So I called back and asked once again when does my warrenty run out, they told me it's almost about to end but I should be good if I went to their service center. So I went and waited an hour. So I explained the situation and said I KNOW for sure it's an equipment issue, specifically the battery. He looked up my info and said "oh I'm sorry, your warrenty just ran out a week ago." That seriously pissed me off since I tried getting that info over phone (could've save myself an hour and ate lunch today).

    So if anyone can suggest another carrier or some way to get sprint to not be so dumb, let me know.
    My understanding is that you get a year warranty -- didn't your year anniversary with the phone jog your memory? Regarding the battery issue, I highly doubt that they deliberately wanted you to miss out. If it is a battery issue you can easily get another one for not much. Perhaps too much 420ing? LOL... I'm sorry for your experience but I don't know if I can blame Sprint. My experience with them for 2 years in NYC was that they weren't as large as VZW but they made up for it in other ways, e.g. lower prices and very reasonable coverage. If being able to get coverage everywhere, including in tunnels in NYC and also in some subways near the street, then VZW is the way to go but it costs you. I don't think the premium is worth it as much as VZW has been promoting it...
  17. #37  
    I highly recommend Sprint

    I have always been happy with their customer service, and they have always been VERY QUICK to take care of any of my problems

    if there are no Sprint Dead Spots in your area, then definitely go for it ----- I use to live in an apartment that had a bad deadspot, but now that I've moved out, I couldn't be happier with my sprint service

    in my travels, I have noticed that Verizon seems to have a more expansive coverage, but Sprint is pretty close ----- and there are no probs in big cities and suburbs

    and lastly, Sprint's pricing is simply terrific, in comparison ---- especially their data prices

    on my account, I simply pay $10 a month to roam on Verizon networks ------ so I get the cheaper prices, and if needed, I'll have Verizon in those places that a signal is hard to find
    BLUETOOTH!!!!
  18.    #38  
    I made the switch, I got a Sprint Treo 650 for $350 OTD + the Treo Bluetooth headset and Verizon said they will waive the ETF fee which I will have to see to believe. I live in cellular hell and Sprint has been great, especially with the digital roaming and IMO that is Sprints greatest feature over Verizon.

    So I guess thats about all, other than is there a way to force the Treo to roam?
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by Howitzer
    So I guess thats about all, other than is there a way to force the Treo to roam?
    Nope...if you've got a weak Sprint signal, it'll hang on to it over a strong Verizon signal.
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    #40  
    From my experience, Verizon has better reception than Sprint at least in upper west side of NYC. I had problem making or receiving calls in my apartment building in 120th or Butler library in Columbia U. In general though, I was mostly satisfied with Sprint coverage, and I'm considering going back. (Currently with Cingular) I heard that Sprint has poor reception in central NJ area where I just moved in. I carried my old Treo 600 with me for a few days, and so far it's getting at least 3 bar signals. My wife's Verizon phone seems to have a little better reception though, and I will probably add $5 roaming option if I sign up. Is there anyone who has experience to share regarding to Sprint reception in central NJ area?
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