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  1.    #21  
    staad,

    As I pointed out...Jackal only set up a strawman argument I never made and knocked it down. Because of that sleight of keyboard, the correctness is irrelevant.

    Again:

    A pattern and practice of failing to notify customers, misleading customers, and changing orders without consent is *exactly* what the FTC gets concerned with.

    Read the actual regulations. And BTW, you need to refresh youself on the definition of ad hominem before using such impressive words to convince us of your authority. I made an argument "to the facts."



    [This message has been edited by reganc (edited 10-27-1999).]
  2. #22  
    Reganc, I see, disparage the person rather than their argument if you don't like the logic, especially if it doesn't favor your argument. Let's keep it to the facts rather than personal attacks. If you took my words personally, I apologize, I was merely trying to make a point.

    BTW, you did say: "I'm interested in an intelligent analysis of the consumer protection laws if anyone in the forum can provide it." Should you have included "...and agree with my point of view, otherwise plan on being flamed because I'm not interested in anyone who disagrees."

    Well, you never answered my questions so I'll repost them along with a couple of others so that we can see where you truly stand:

    1. Do you have evidence of Handspring billing anyone and then not delivering within 30 days?

    2. On what basis does anyone who reserved the right to be first in line for a Visor (by ordering on 9/14) hold any claim to protection under the 30 Day Rule if Handspring never billed them? Your interpretation is incorrect. It's bad business but it's not illegal.

    3. What is your basis for stating that Handspring has any legal obligation to notify a customer that their order has been canceled if they haven't billed the customer? The FTC only says you must notify them if you have taken an order (that process includes billing or putting a monetary hold on a customer's credit account). Everyone who signed up for "pre-orders" and anyone else for that matter has no coverage under the FTC until 30 days after Handspring bills their account.

    4. Did they notify you of a delay on your order when you spoke with the CSR on one of the several times you've been in contact with them?

    5. Do you have any direct evidence (besides hearsay--that includes things heard on this site) that orders are being switched?

    6. Have they billed your credit account yet? Or are you just blowing smoke because of the alleged abuses that you've read about on this and other sites and you feel like you need to speak out?

    Again, I'm not defending the fact that Handspring has a major problem on their hands, but so far very little if any of the issues qualify as actionable in our current legal system.

    Thanks again and I look forward to your responses. If all you can provide is further attacks, consider this my last post to this thread.

    [This message has been edited by Jackal (edited 10-26-1999).]
  3. #23  
    BTW, Reganc, check out this thread:
    http://www.visorcentral.com/visor/di...ML/000014.html

    All of these folks are customers who ordered in the first week and none of them (at least those who mention CC billing) have seen activity on their cards yet (nor have they received their promised device yet either). In your mind, do any of these people have coverage under the FTC?

    This is the point I'm trying to convey: if you haven't paid then there's no liability and the 30 Day Rule does not apply.

    [This message has been edited by Jackal (edited 10-26-1999).]
  4. #24  
    Reganc:

    Staad's definition and usage was correct.

    Ad hominem (adjective): marked by an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made. (WWWebster Dictionary, www.m-w.com/home.htm )

    As in "Your ad hominem remarks...."

    [This message has been edited by Jackal (edited 10-26-1999).]
  5.    #25  
    jackal,

    You're the one who started with the personal crap instead of sticking to the facts. I just pointed out how carefully worded your "credentials" were and that you missed my point entirely. Then I restated it for you. That doesn't quite meet the definition of ad homimen. Calling you a ignorant F%$#@% A%$#$* without a thoughtful reply would have been.

    One more time:

    A pattern and practice of failing to notify customers, misleading customers, and changing orders without consent is *exactly* what the FTC gets concerned with.

    It appears you have no dispute with that, correct?

    As for your questions, I heard directly from a Handspring CSR supervisor that they automatically are changing colors orders to graphite and shipping them without contacting the customer. That's illegal. If people wanted graphite many would get Palms, and they know that. They don't want you to have an opportunity to cancel, so they don't give you one.

    No one is being contacted by Handspring about anything, and when customers are forced to contact them, many just get lied to like I did. They do this to keep customers from cancelling and it's again, illegal.

    As for the 30 day thing, they don't have to actually bill. Taking an order and putting holds on credit cards in the September 20 timeframe like they did with mine constitutes a completed order.

    Also, that 30-clock isn't the only point. Orders taken 9/14 were taken with a promise to deliver before six weeks, which is now up. Missing that deadline isn't a big deal, but not giving customers an opportunity to cancel when they know there is problems is again, illegal.

    Try not to begin your posts with personal attacks, it dilutes your argument, and you may ironically end up as the "nuisance" you claim others are.



    [This message has been edited by reganc (edited 10-27-1999).]
  6. Toto's Avatar
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    #26  
    Reganc:

    When a company takes orders and makes a promise to deliver at at point in time and runs into problems, they are at a minimum *required* to contact the customer and notify them that their product is now delayed.
    Uh, no, actually, they are not. Not by any law or regulation, anyway. Courtesy and good business practice are another matter.

    Handspring is currently telling some people, when those people call Handspring, that if your color visor (promised in Oct) hasn't shipped yet it will be sent sometime in November.
    That makes pretty good sense to me, since we're rapidly running out of October, and the evidence seems to suggest that the color units are out-of-stock. What would you have them do? Wishful thinking won't get the units manufactured and delivered.

    Whether or not you contact them, they are also automatically changing some color Visor orders to Graphite
    They are? How do you know this? Did Handspring announce this? Or do you have a special insight? How do you know that these aren't simple mistakes in order placement or fulfillment? Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

    to avoid Palm/WinCE defections.
    More special insight? If they are doing as you suggest, how do you know why they are doing it?

    Do Dubinsky & Hawkins have a secret silent partner named Machiavelli, or are you just imagining a vast Handspring conspiracy?

    Oh, by the way, it's "Toto", not "Tito".

    [This message has been edited by Toto (edited 10-26-1999).]
  7. #27  
    Reganc, you continue to dance around the issue. I have not seen one customer who stated that their credit card was billed (or an authorization placed on the card) and then 30 days later they still haven't received their merchandise. Provide me the proof, please.

    When was your card billed? In the Sept 20th period? The fact that you refuse to answer the question leads me to believe it hasn't been billed yet, nor has a hold been placed on it.

    Next, so the supervisor told you they were switching to Graphite visors without advising the customer. If it's true, that would be an illegal action, MAYBE. Still hard to hold up in court because color does not affect the functioning of the device. But still this is only if it's true. Again, only hearsay or a misunderstanding until such a case is documented as willfully done by the company and not just stated by the supervisor of CSRs.

    Finally, I didn't feel the need to blatantly state my credentials but if it pleases you, for 4 years I held several different managerial responsibilities including Business Development Manager for the Credit Division of Sears, Roebuck & Co. In those roles working closely with the Legal and Compliance departments, I evaluated, interpreted and changed Sears's policy to keep it in accordance with the current laws under the OCC and the FTC. Believe me, I am current with the laws and regulations that you're bandying about. Satisfied?

    [This message has been edited by Jackal (edited 10-26-1999).]
  8. #28  
    I'm wondering how much energy has been consumed in this post? It's probably enough to have caused power surges in the electrical lines to Handspring which is causing:
    Web site problems,
    Phone hangups
    Surges in the Credit Card billing machine causing duplicate billing
    etc,

    If the electricity stopped being wasted maybe the topic wouldn't be necessary.....in the immortal words of CalTrans "Give'em a Brake".
  9. #29  
    Nuf said Moose, LMAO!
  10. RJT
    RJT is offline
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    #30  
    I know I'm bored
  11.    #31  
    Jackal,

    Sears, huh? Ouch!!!

    http://augustachronicle.com/stories/...llections.html


    I had a feeling there was a reason you were so experienced with the FTC and trying to excuse Handspring!


    Moose,

    Great post -- The brakes are now on! I was just tired of hearing people lament how nothing can be done when a company ignores and mistreats customers they solicited, and wanted to get some good conversation going on the admittedly vague topic of FTC consumer protection. I wish other people who seem to have some expertise would use their energy to help customers instead of excusing Handspring for their business practices.


    Tito,

    All Handspring needs to do is contact customers and give them an option to cancel. It doesn't take inside knowledge to know they don't want to lose customers to Palm.

    As I said, I was personally informed by Handspring of the color switcheroo plans.

    Also, failing to cancel when a customer contacts them and requests cancellation sends a message to others who might want to try the same not to bother.

    By their actions they erode confidence in other future business start-ups, and that stuff is what the FTC doesn't like because it hurts the general climate of doing business in the US.


    [This message has been edited by reganc (edited 10-27-1999).]
  12.    #32  
    -

    [This message has been edited by reganc (edited 10-27-1999).]
  13.    #33  
    molecularbond,

    Actaully I personally think Hawkins is a great tech visionary. They were set up to fail though when Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers, and Capital Financing didn't demand more experienced business execs to handle the start-up in exchange for venture capital.
    Dubinsky should have had some better help.

    I bet those two VC firms are regretting their decision now when they see the Handspring buzz on Slashdot, ZDNet, Yahoo ClubHandspring, other Palm sites, and here.


    [This message has been edited by reganc (edited 10-27-1999).]
  14. #34  
    Reganc, I must admit, I spent a good part of my time with small financed biotech companies that are early starters. A lot of them are still run by geeky scientists that have no management skills.

    But, in all honesty, I don't think any of them could do worst then HS as far as serious screw up, the call center the shipping site the order site, the customer complaint site its all over the place, a monster without a head...

    So I admit it now, HS stinks and its only the cash flow that keeping them up because if they were a real start up, the would have really struggled after this kind of mess...

    Also, I don't think a compnay like that has a lot of employees, does anybody know what the muscle force behind that barak is ? If you're HS employees posing as customer, you really need to check your mirror in the morning before you step out !

    [This message has been edited by handsprung (edited 10-27-1999).]
  15. #35  
    I feel like I'm watching CourtTV...

    Where's Marsha Clark?
  16. #36  
    Forget Marcia Clark. We're dealing with another OJ.

    Chris
  17. #37  
    reganc and molecuboard.....gentlemen let's please watch the personal attacks and retributions here their very well could be children present and California, a most litigious state, recently fined and punished a gentlemen for some of the same remarks stated above because he was in public and I don't think either one of you would want that.

    Also, this is no place for adult humor...I'd suggest that you both edit your own posts before they are viewed and or removed by moderators or other members.

    Come on guys lets try and not live in the sewer, everyone has a right to their opinion but this is not Locker Room Humor web site!
  18.    #38  
    Molecular,

    RSG's right. Just clean up the key words so VisorCentral stays out of trouble with the family crowd. They just ditched the Playboy ads for that reason.


    Anyhow, from what I've heard, getting experienced management at the helm is by far the number one problem with these companies riding the tech start-up boom.

    In fact, besides the true scam artists, that's why the FTC is specifically cracking down on misleading sales over the Net. The companies are rushing in so fast to make a quick buck on hype that some move into a market faster than they can handle it, just to beat competitors to the punch and achieve lock-in of a customer base.

    The saying is "Start-up now, figure out the business later." Problems are dealt with on the run and customer churn is part of the equation. Handspring didn't have a problem with the product, but when the ordering system bit the dust they felt they had no time to waste on looking back. Admitting a problem early would dampen the company's image. They went for broke hoping to clean things up before anyone found out there was even a problem. Hey, I at least give em credit for having the cajones, but they gambled and lost.

    What stuns me though is that they *still* aren't looking back at their earliest, most enthusiastic supporters while maintaining they're in love with the customers. It's amazing, all they had to do was come clean last week with the truth. They chose to spout out lies to anxious customers considering cancelling. It's so surreal. I've never seen anything like it from a mainstream company. They're laying down double or nothing I guess! =(



    [This message has been edited by reganc (edited 10-27-1999).]
  19. RJT
    RJT is offline
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    #39  
    RSG....agree. As a father who's trying expose his kids to the positive aspects of the net, it gets tougher and tougher when you come across low class posts. Thanks again.
  20. #40  
    I have removed some inappropriate comments from this topic. If these comments continue, this topic will be closed and the posters risk having their accounts removed.

    Please keep to the issues, and leave your personal feelings out of this.

    ------------------
    James Hromadka
    VisorCentral.com
    Personal Website: http://www.geocities.com/jehromadka
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