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  • 1 Post By rwhitby
  1. marbla's Avatar
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       #1  
    I know it's known but I think it is worth restating since I was only able to finde this solution after I knew it (from HP support):

    To reboot a stuck Veer you can hold the power button and toggle (back and forth) the ringer switch three times.

    That even worked to get out of usb mode...
  2. #2  
    I believe this is standard for all webOS phones. It definitely works on my Pre -.

    -- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
  3. marbla's Avatar
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       #3  
    True, it is. But at least for me it was new again since I would usually just pop the battery on the other phones.
  4. #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by GuyFromNam View Post
    Not wise (putting it mildly).
    You don't yank out the power cord when your desktop is giving you problems, do you?
    Hell yeah I do!!!


    To add to that, I think my Pre- knew the Veers were coming, was acting awesome all morning, got to work, did everything as normal getting out of the car (was listening to podcast via BT up until parking), get out of car, switch the silent ringer switch, get no vibrate, nothing would get the phone to turn on. Got into the office and had to do a battery pull to get the Pre back up and runing.... just saying.


    When I pulled the Veer outta the box last night, it just had the glowing HP logo, thought I needed to put in the SIM, then the power button and silent switch rebooted it. So far so good.
    I love physical keyboards... but there is two devices that would make me consider a slab, one is something running a full version of Open webOS. The other is an iPhone!!!! HA HA just kidding (about the iPhone that is)...
  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by GuyFromNam View Post
    You don't yank out the power cord when your desktop is giving you problems, do you?
    isnt the ringer switch toggle method almost (if not exactly) the same? i mean more like hitting the reset button on a desktop? i mean the "freezing" occasion cannot be solved in a wiser way not on a desktop nor on a webos mobile phone since all ui options to do so are absent.
  6. #6  
    Good tip to reconfirm the one time I had a stuck screen. Given this was my first palm/hp/webos phone I had no idea what to do. So I just did what I do with my iPod, hold down power and toggle hold button (mute on veer). Worked like a charm.
  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by GuyFromNam View Post
    No it's not the same. Someone with more tech knowledge could probably tell you why suddenly disconnecting the main power source of a device may do more harm than good, and is not the same as using the intended reset option.

    (They even have a special web page with that info, and the battery pull is advised against.)
    i didnt say it was recommended to do a battery pull, i just said that the alternative way by holding down power and toggling the mute switch isnt any (much) better. how can you say it is not "wise" if you just dont have any other options to go?

    the difference between a battery pull and the "power button down while toggling mute switch several times" is really minor regarding the technical arguments you direct to.

    i say "minor" but not "not existing", thats why i stated "almost (if not exactly) the same" in my last post.

    the only "wise" way to restart a system is triggering its built in restart procedure which will take care of a proper shutdown of all componens first before invoking the startup and initializing steps again. doing so depends on being able to do so and being able to do so depends on having a functional user interface which offers you the option.

    ways to to this would be selecting "restart device" from the system info app or pressing opt+sym+r for thats all done by and within the ui and you can see a grey pearl or the like while the device shuts down right after network connections disappearing.

    the occasions we would choose a way which omits the proper shutdown by killing the system at once directly going to the bootup sequence is when we do not have this option because a user interface is not there, not accessible or not functional regarding the task.

    so nobody can call that "not wise" because you would only do so as a last resort, so its more like doing the "most wise thing" of the options you have

    pulling the battery of course can harm a system that might be in the middle of doing anything having this anything interrupted all the sudden.

    holding down power and toggling mute switch does pretty much the same. its not an ui function, its a hardware built in "backdoor" to enforce a bootup by killing anything in the middle of doing anything.

    the good thing is: in most cases where you would do that the ui is so dead already that it is at least possible the system isnt doing anything anymore that dangerously can be interrupted

    so wise would be to do a battery pull or any other hardware related enforced cold boot (like power-mute-toggle) only when a) you dont have any other option and b) you are sure the system is not doing something anymore. (in the latter case you would wait)

    in other words a "stuck veer" (<-- thread title).

    how do i know, the power-mute-toggle is a hardware trigger and not an ui function which properly shuts down the system (at least when it finds itself capable of doing so)?

    because when i do it while looking at a fully functional ui, the result is an immediate black out followed by the bootup. no shutdown sequence, no one by one stopping services, no nothing, only a plain sudden death of everything. the observation of the ui presenting you the shutdown/restart dialog prior to the black screen only tells me, the power down hold was properly handled by the ui, nothing more, the enforced reboot still completely circumwent the ui.

    the minor differences between a hardware (or low level) implemented reset and a battery pull reset are:

    a) a system which has physical components such as spinning hard disks can suffer a different death by sudden no-electricity or by sudden component reset. even though the webos device does not have such there might be a slight but minor difference in "harm" possibly done.

    b) probably the sudden "reset" in favour of a sudden "electicity gone" can do a slightly more proper hardware shutdown by powering off or triggering reset on certain components in a certain order preventing voltage peaks or the like. my opinion is: the power-mute-toggle does not do this because all work invested in developing an optmized hardware reset should better be invested in an ui that does not get stuck. still i could be wrong here.

    c) given that a battery pull takes away all electricity for a certain period of time (this period being atomic small when doing any other reset) it is more likely that with a longer period all components get "more" reset than they would with a shorter period. leaving the battery away for a longer time asures that all components that might be in a certain state like memory or the like really get into a truely clean new state, not suffering from leftovers from the previous "stuck" state. so this might mean that a battery pull sometimes is even more "wise" when you want to be sure a really screwed state is really wiped and reset fully. (of course never in favour of a proper shutdown under control of the ui if you still have that option!)

    since we cannot do a battery pull on the veer i consider the power-mute-toggle being made by palm as close as it possibly can be to a battery pull.

    i could still be wrong in one or two assumptions or conclusions i draw from my observations and my knowledge about hardware, computers and webos phones, but what i want to say is:

    if you have to kill it with the basball club, its not really a big difference if you do it with a table leg or a chair leg. holding down power and toggling the mute switch is such a kill, too. the fact that you can trigger it with legit keys and switches does not mean it is more "intended".
  8. #8  
    wow that's a lot to read, I will come back later, anyone wanna summerize for me? Thanks
    I love physical keyboards... but there is two devices that would make me consider a slab, one is something running a full version of Open webOS. The other is an iPhone!!!! HA HA just kidding (about the iPhone that is)...
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by OldSkoolVWLover View Post
    wow that's a lot to read, I will come back later, anyone wanna summerize for me? Thanks
    the short version is the 3 lines i posted before that
  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by GuyFromNam View Post
    Sorry, after three lines it just seems like a lot a text to make a point that doesn't need to be made.
    Pushing a reset button is not the same as yanking out the power cord. Period.
    One is an intended last resort by the manufacturer, the other is not.
    Wanna spend another 50 lines arguing otherwise. Feel free. Won't read those either.
    absolutely no reason to get rude here

    btw: i exactly said in the first short posting that the ringer switch toggle would compare to a reset button push. which i consider similar wise or unwise to a power cord pull in respect of hard- and software health. so thanks for confirming on that
    Last edited by gnark; 07/03/2011 at 04:53 PM.
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by GuyFromNam View Post
    Not rude, unnecessarily and excessively clear.

    It's not the same.
    There's a reset button on the front of your computer.
    There's a power switch on the back.

    Please do as many battery pulls as you please though.
    ah thanks again, you are exactly saying what i was saying at first

    i never said it was the same, i was only saying the ringer wiggle was comparing to a desktop reset and i misinterpreted your "excessive clearness" as a claim that this was not true and one could use the ringer wiggle on a daily basis without any danger of screwing or harming a system.

    i just see more similarity between the two *different* reset strategies than you (and i can live with that), highlighting that the major difference is between reseting a system on one hand via the ui (every day recommended) and on the other hand via board reset or electricity pull (both not recommended when you have other options in my eyes).

    yes, i tend to write too much,
    yes, thanks, i feel free, and

    Please do as many board resets as you please though.

    thank god, i didnt have to do one or another ever, the only occasion i did the ringer wiggle reset was yesterday to confirm for myself it was not shutting down webos in a controlled manner. the other occasion was at the o2 store when we wanted to switch off a pre with a non-functional touchscreen and we decided it was more secure and healthy doing a battery pull rather than firing a reset and do a battery pull while it boots.

    Quote Originally Posted by marbla View Post
    That even worked to get out of usb mode...
    so i would not recommend that either given you have other options, the intended way for windows is right-clicking on the network drive and selecting "eject", i learned this not soo long ago too and before that always selected "stop device" from the system tray icon, which often (or always?) fails to send webos back in regular ui mode.
  12. #12  
    Power-mute-wiggle syncs the filesystem before halting the kernel in a forceful but orderly manner.

    Pulling the battery induces a catastrophic power interruption to all circuitry on the device, including processor, modem, flash chips, etc.

    There's a big difference if you care about the integrity of your data and the lifetime of your device components.

    BTW, it is possible to do a battery pull on the Veer without breaking the warranty sticker. I would not advise it though.

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
  13. marbla's Avatar
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       #13  
    Honestly, there is no need to fight it. All I wanted to achieve with this thread is to put an easily accessible (and searchable) marker for this method into the Veer forum because I am sure that a few Veer owners who do not know how to do it will end up here. There is no doubt that it is better than a battery pull, but I am also absolutely sure that not everybody is familiar with this option which is the only way of resetting a stuck Veer.

    @ rwhitby: Thanks for the enlightening explanation!
  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby View Post
    BTW, it is possible to do a battery pull on the Veer without breaking the warranty sticker. I would not advise it though.
    Unless of course the Veer ends up in QDL mode somehow. At that point a battery pull (or waiting for the battery to cark it) is your only option to resuscitate the thing.
  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by Hendikins View Post
    Unless of course the Veer ends up in QDL mode somehow. At that point a battery pull (or waiting for the battery to cark it) is your only option to resuscitate the thing.
    Agreed. Glad that worked for you.

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
    gorgos likes this.
  16. #16  
    This would presumably be because there is no kernel running in QDL mode, so there is nothing to talk to when you do power-mute-wiggle.

    Of course, getting a Veer in to QDL mode is something that Shouldn't Happen(TM), and power-mute-wiggle should work for pretty much anything else. Presumably it is just an emergency sync and forced reboot (akin to Alt+SysRq+S and reboot -f on a Linux desktop)?
  17. #17  
    Thanks marbla, I've been staring at my Veer for about 2 hours waiting for the battery to die!
    ---
    Zire -> Treo650 -> iPhone -> Veer

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