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  1. donjt81's Avatar
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       #1  
    Why does the Engadget article say "As you might expect, however, that 4G addition does literally come with an asterisk -- the phone itself only has basic HSPA capabilities"

    How is the 4G in Veer different from lets say the LTE 4G that Verizon is promoting.
  2. #2  
    its a question of how one defines 4g. compare the top/average/available speeds of one and another device or network.
  3. #3  
    Speeds. AT&T's 4G is HSPA+ and gets up to I think about 6Mbps.

    Verizon's LTE supposedly gets up to around 15 in the right areas.
  4. #4  
    The Veer is HSPA+. Although that is considered 4G it's no where close to the speeds of VZW's LTE network. The ITU redefined 4G to include WiMAX, LTE and HSPA+. So AT&T started marketing everything as 4G if it was capable of supporting HSPA+. They did this whether or not AT&T enabled the HSPA+ on the device.
  5. #5  
    ATT HSPA+ could be on par with VZW LTE but ATT wanted to ration the speed upgrade to their bogged-down network.
    Try diplomacy first. You can always conquer them later...

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  6. #6  
    Good description of the whole "4G" mess at This Is My Next.
  7. #7  
    Wimax is what Sprint uses, and they call it 4G
    HSPA+ is what Att uses, and they call it 4G
    LTE is what Verizon uses, and it is truly 4G

    But getting a device based off what it is "Capable" of, doesn't mean you'll get the speeds they toot.

    Right now, all around my Travels, LTE is far from deployed, though people buy the Thunderbolt hoping to get 4G speeds.
    At my Office, Sprints WIMAX barely gives me 1000 kbps down and 200 up.
    At&t's HSPA is giving me close to 2000 kbps down and 1500 up.
    (My phone has yet to show me a H+, it only shows H or 3G)
    As for Verizon, they are still only 3G all over my local travels.
    Just call me Berd.
  8. #8  
    I second the recommendation to read the article linked above at Thisismynext.

    Most interesting part is that even though AT&T has said they consider HSPA+ to be 4G, they have yet to release a device that is capable of the HSPA+ spec. This includes the Atrix, Inspire, and of course Veer. These are all HSDPA cat 10 devices, which has max speeds of 14.4 Mb/s, while HSPA+ is supposed to be at least 17.6.

    As long as they don't start charging more for data on these "4G" devices I don't really care what they call it, but I'm not at all convinced they won't do just that.
  9. mdram's Avatar
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    #9  
    Up here in Canada, Bell calls 14.4 capable phones 4G (Atrix, HD7), since those are supposedly HSPA+.

    Bell Mobility - Canada's Best Network.

    They do have 21 and 42 Mbps networks rolling out but I don't think they have any phones capable of those yet. Would love to see the Pre 3 with HSPDA Cat 20.
  10. #10  
    4G is officially 100Mb/sec. Cellular carrier marketing > 3GPP standards
  11. #11  
    I think the 3GPP has since redefined 4G because standing in the corner and screaming THAT'S NOT 4G!!! didn't help any, and nobody was listening to a boring industry standards group when there were flashy billboards advertising 4G.

    It would make more sense to look at actual maximum speed rather than an arbitrary number of gees. People don't think about their car as being "7G" or something, they think of it as having 385 horsepower and a top speed of 240km/h (or miles, if you're so inclined), so they're obviously not too stupid to look at more than a number and a letter.
  12. aapold's Avatar
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    #12  
    This is why sprint calls what AT&T is doing "Faux G". I preferred the term "4 Gery" myself, but either will do...
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by GodShapedHole View Post
    I think the 3GPP has since redefined 4G because standing in the corner and screaming THAT'S NOT 4G!!! didn't help any, and nobody was listening to a boring industry standards group when there were flashy billboards advertising 4G.

    It would make more sense to look at actual maximum speed rather than an arbitrary number of gees. People don't think about their car as being "7G" or something, they think of it as having 385 horsepower and a top speed of 240km/h (or miles, if you're so inclined), so they're obviously not too stupid to look at more than a number and a letter.
    4G, officially from the 3GPP as of late last year, is now any network that offers "a substantial level of improvement in performance and capabilities with respect to the initial third generation systems now deployed."

    Which is vague enough to mean pretty much anything, including HSDPA and/or HSPA+.

    Side note: AT&T did release or announce an actual HSPA+ capable (HSDPA Cat 14) phone today. Their first (Samsung Infuse...and with its 4.5'' screen, it's pretty much a tablet.)
  14. #14  
    truth is they are all fast enough.

    My galaxy tab is supposedly 3.5G on T-Mobile, max speed i measured is 4mbps. Plenty for online video streaming.

    What is your most data intense work that 6mbps can't handle?

    Sprint can shut up or present a phone thats attractive, my contract will be up in a month, and they just told me my silver premium membership can't do annual upgrade anymore, I'm telling ya, I have absolutely no problem leaving it.

    I don't like VZW at all, from their treatment of Pre+, to their attitude towards net neutrality, and their limitation of what users can do on their network.
  15. aapold's Avatar
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    #15  


    Anandtech had a really good discussion on the Veer's HSPA+ on the second page of their first look at the veer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anandtech
    The long and short of it is that if a modem supports any 3GPP Release 7 features, it's a 3GPP Release 7 device, and thus 'HSPA+,' which is merely a colloquial label for enhancements added in Release 7. The reality is that none of the features in any release but the original WCDMA 3GPP release are mandatory, everything in each release since then is optional. Thus, features added in 3GPP Release 7 are optional - you don't have to implement every new feature to be able to call your modem HSPA+. Features supported by Qualcomm's MSM7230 inside the HP Veer that are from 3GPP Release 7 include UE DTX/DRX (discontinuous uplink transmission and receive), F-DPCH, and others. Qualcomm's MSM7230 and other current generation WCDMA SoCs include QPSK and 16QAM modulation on the downlink, meaning they are HSDPA 14.4 Category 10 devices. Downlink support for 64QAM will come in the next refresh.....

    Further, the enhancements added in HSPA+ / 3GPP Release 7 cover far more than just the standalone addition of 64QAM. Release 7 adds HSDPA categories which include MIMO but exclude 64QAM support in addition to categories that exclude MIMO but include 64QAM. On the uplink it also includes 16QAM support which could enable upstream speeds of up to 11.5 Mbps. Other major features added are faster call setup and takedown, and reduced cellular signaling to alleviate some of the call and data session blocking issues which have affected a number of UMTS networks. The point of all this is that it's a grossly innacurate oversimplification to claim something is or isn't HSPA+ based on absence of 64QAM on the downlink.

    The long and short of it is that the HP Veer 4G, HTC Inspire 4G, and Motorola Atrix 4G are all definitely HSPA+ capable with 16QAM HSDPA 14.4 support. As an aside, I'm a bit surprised that this is suddenly an issue now since HSDPA 14.4 (Category 10) devices have been shipping for some time now under the HSPA+ banner to no complaint.
  16. #16  
    Nothing that we currently have (HSPA+, LTE, WiMax) is actually 4G, at least by the original definition. Then marketing people got hold of it, and dragged it down to what it is now. The HSPA+ being 4G is basically a lie, but at the same time it's not, because nobody can set an official definition.

    Anyways, it should be faster
  17. #17  
    All I care about is whether it's faster or not. If I can actually get 2000kbps as Berd says, holy crap, that is nearly an order of magnitude faster than my 3G on Sprint. I don't care whether it's 4G or not, that makes it fast.
    Palm III-->Handspring Visor-->Sony Clie PEG-NR70-->no PDA -->Palm Treo 755p-->Palm Pre-->HP Veer
  18. j_benj's Avatar
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    #18  
    All I care about is whether it's faster or not. If I can actually get 2000kbps as Berd says, holy crap, that is nearly an order of magnitude faster than my 3G on Sprint. I don't care whether it's 4G or not, that makes it fast.
    I concur with this assessment, and I will add one more thing : As far as I'm concerned, they can call it whatever they want.. 4G, 3.5G, HSPA+, whatever.. as long as they're not trying to charge me more for it.
  19. JLegacy's Avatar
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    #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by peterlemonjello View Post
    The Veer is HSPA+. Although that is considered 4G it's no where close to the speeds of VZW's LTE network. The ITU redefined 4G to include WiMAX, LTE and HSPA+. So AT&T started marketing everything as 4G if it was capable of supporting HSPA+. They did this whether or not AT&T enabled the HSPA+ on the device.
    +1


    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    Wimax is what Sprint uses, and they call it 4G
    HSPA+ is what Att uses, and they call it 4G
    LTE is what Verizon uses, and it is truly 4G
    Verizon's LTE is no more 4G than Sprint's Wiimax (Or even HSPA+ on other networks). What makes it 4G?
    Whether or not it's newer technology?
    Wiimax is new. But it isn't that fast -- about the same speed as T-Mobile's HSPA+ is most areas.
    How fast it is?
    HSPA+ is just as fast as Wiimax. If Sprint gets to call their network 4G, why can't T-Mobile or AT&T? HSPA+ can theoretically be faster too (As fast as LTE!), if they double the speed with updates (T-Mobile annouced updating their HSPA+ network this year IIRC).
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  20. JLegacy's Avatar
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    #20  
    Personally I consider the Veer 4G just because it's capable of faster network speeds than any webOS phone to date.
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