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  1. #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    lol, I don't disagree with the fact that their were numerous screwups along the way. But, I also dont think that small screened smartphones are predisposed for failure. the small webOS phones that have failed already, did so because of the aforementioned screwups. and i also don't think that a multi-billion dollar company would engineer and market a product that they KNOW will fail.
    I don't think small screened smartphones are predisposed for failure.

    I think small screen smartphones saddled with the task of leading an already anemic platform's relaunch, burdened with dongles , limited to one US carrier and resembling greatly products that failed on the market just months ago are predisposed for failure.

    I'm sure HP thought the Slate was a winner for the same things they think the Touchpad will win at. In fact, I know so because Steve Ballmer's 2010 CES keynote talked about how awesome it is for consuming media and eReading. I'm sure they thought that abysmal Android/Printer combo was a winner too.
  2.    #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    I don't think small screened smartphones are predisposed for failure.

    I think small screen smartphones saddled with the task of leading an already anemic platform's relaunch, burdened with dongles , limited to one US carrier and resembling greatly products that failed on the market just months ago are predisposed for failure.

    I'm sure HP thought the Slate was a winner for the same things they think the Touchpad will win at. In fact, I know so because Steve Ballmer's 2010 CES keynote talked about how awesome it is for consuming media and eReading. I'm sure they thought that abysmal Android/Printer combo was a winner too.
    your argument is like saying the Motorola Droid wouldn't sell well because the G1 didn't. As far as I can see, with the Veer and Pre3, palm has fixed the issues that have plagued webOS so far. I don't believe the screen size or the formfactors contributed to the failure.

    as far as the dongles are concerned. I can see things getting sticky there... There will be a lot of people put off by it. But that doesn't mean it will fail completely.
  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    your argument is like saying the Motorola Droid wouldn't sell well because the G1 didn't.
    The G1 had a 3.7-inch hi-res screen, free Google nav, Android 2.0, square steel-looking construction and was made by Motorola and sold on (at the time) the nation's largest carrier?

    Aside from those little quibbles, sure..... It's just like the Veer compared to the Pixi and Pre.

    As far as I can see, with the Veer and Pre3, palm has fixed the issues that have plagued webOS so far. I don't believe the screen size or the formfactors contributed to the failure.
    Didn't they fix those issues with the Palm Pre 2? One could argue they fixed them with the Palm Pre Plus, even.

    as far as the dongles are concerned. I can see things getting sticky there... There will be a lot of people put off by it. But that doesn't mean it will fail completely.
    We'll see.
  4. #84  
    I think the general consensus is they are a year behind with everything and nothing has gone right from the get go. The Pre didn't do well. Slightly better versions didn't do well on AT&T and Verizon though it had a little niche. Sprint beta owners still get screwed with no Plus. Why the original wasn't scrapped the minute the Plus came into existence is beyond me. Total ** to Sprint users. Then a long time passes and the Pre 2 comes out. Should've really been what the Pre Plus was. And I bet if all three US carriers had the 2 back when the Plus came out, along with some decent marketing, there might have been more of a webOS push at the time. Maybe a little more developer involvement because they could start to see a light at the end of the tunnel.

    Then the Pre3 and Veer (though I still would've preferred a souped up Pixi) would've arrived last year to a little more acclaim. And then "Thinking Beyond" could've been a nice 4" superphone or something Atrix like in stature to complement the tablet. Instead, the slogan came across as meaningless or just a flat out lie. Both phones seem to have very little in common with Thinking Beyond and many just have a hard time seeing a bright future for webOS with how things seem to be going.

    The Veer and the 3 fix issuse that should've been addressed long ago. They are behind the curve and have an uphill battle ahead. The competition isn't going to stop and wait for them and neither are the consumers. Outside of the faithful supporters here, there is just a lot of skepticism, and it has merit. I have no reason to be loyal to this platform. But that doesn't mean I don't like it or want it to fail. I'd love to own another webOS device, but I'm just not seeing anything that makes me want to take the plunge again. I'm not trying to hate on Palm and webOS, I'm just not impressed. It's the same tired incremental progression I saw in the Treo line. Why would I want to relive that again when I have better options elsewhere.

    I'd pick up the Arrive and play around with WP7 before I'd get the Pre3. Where's my cursor keys or d-pad on these two new webOS phones? Personally I use my phone more like a little computer and editing and creating documents is so much easier with hard cursor keys. It's so much easier in landscape on a 4" screen. I can't go backwards.
    Pixi: Sold. Pre: Passed off to another rep. Touchpad: Just a toy until Cloud syncing arrives, and a better doc editor.
  5. cgk
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    #85  
    The Pre upgrade path seems to be one based on the Iphone model but without the actual success.
  6. #86  
    What I don't get is if they decided to say "Screw it" to the existing app framework, OS version, and userbase thereby giving you a fresh start, why, oh, why would you carry over the same hardware form factor and design in different sizes?
  7. #87  
    CGK...don't forget they followed their own path long before Apple did it. Seriously...Treo 600, 650, 700, 755 then the Centro.

    mikah...exactly. I keep having that "thinking beyond" phrase resonate in my head and the disappointment that followed. The market has shown what sells. I wouldn't buy a 4+ inch slate, but the rest of the masses would. Evo, Droid X, Galaxy S, Optimus... If you're not going to run with the big dogs then get off the porch. At least their pad seems like it's coming to play. But you need to develop a user base with the phones first, and I don't see the masses clamoring to these two coming off of the ones they already had out there.
    Pixi: Sold. Pre: Passed off to another rep. Touchpad: Just a toy until Cloud syncing arrives, and a better doc editor.
  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    The G1 had a 3.7-inch hi-res screen, free Google nav, Android 2.0, square steel-looking construction and was made by Motorola and sold on (at the time) the nation's largest carrier?

    Aside from those little quibbles, sure..... It's just like the Veer compared to the Pixi and Pre.
    LOL, wut? Try 3.2" screen and Google Nav wasn't there til Donut (1.6) almost a year after release.

    Didn't they fix those issues with the Palm Pre 2? One could argue they fixed them with the Palm Pre Plus, even.
    EVERY SINGLE review or feedback I've read\followed from people who ACTUALLY OWN a Pre2 have overwhelmingly positive feedback and have retracted their previous assumptions about the device stating how "...it's really fast, the screen is great, and it feels really solid".

    Of course the armchair haters would have nothing to do it they didn't troll here 24/7 making ASSumptions about things they have ZERO experience with. I especially love those hating on the Veer yet those who were AT the Think Beyond event say it's a great phone and amazingly fast.
  9. #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by cobrakon View Post
    LOL, wut? Try 3.2" screen and Google Nav wasn't there til Donut (1.6) almost a year after release.
    I guess the smiley is to convey the embarassment you should feel when you realize those specs were referring to the DROID doing well where the G1 did ok? (Psst...Google Nav didn't appear until 2.0)

    Try reading the posts the next time before clicking "Submit Reply".

    EVERY SINGLE review or feedback I've read\followed from people who ACTUALLY OWN a Pre2 have overwhelmingly positive feedback and have retracted their previous assumptions about the device stating how "...it's really fast, the screen is great, and it feels really solid".

    Of course the armchair haters would have nothing to do it they didn't troll here 24/7 making ASSumptions about things they have ZERO experience with. I especially love those hating on the Veer yet those who were AT the Think Beyond event say it's a great phone and amazingly fast.
    Thank you for proving my point! HP has released a device that fixes every hardware and speed issue of the previous gen, people who use it like it, it's available on the the two largest US carriers....

    ...and it's still a sales failure that almost no one cares about, least of all those two major carriers. So how is the Veer having those same attributes going to make it a success?
  10.    #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    The G1 had a 3.7-inch hi-res screen, free Google nav, Android 2.0, square steel-looking construction and was made by Motorola and sold on (at the time) the nation's largest carrier?

    Aside from those little quibbles, sure..... It's just like the Veer compared to the Pixi and Pre.
    no, the point i'm making is that android debuted with very little fanfare. Up until the release of the droid, an android device fit the description that you now reserve for webOS devices. Amazing support from the carriers, coupled with a more mature OS, and better hardware allowed Android to grow from an upstart to a giant. This is exactly what we're beginning to see happen with webOS.

    Didn't they fix those issues with the Palm Pre 2? One could argue they fixed them with the Palm Pre Plus, even.
    no, they fixed the build quality issues. That was just part of the problem...
  11.    #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    What I don't get is if they decided to say "Screw it" to the existing app framework, OS version, and userbase thereby giving you a fresh start, why, oh, why would you carry over the same hardware form factor and design in different sizes?
    because the formfactor isn't the problem...
  12. #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    because the formfactor isn't the problem...
    I said form factor and design. I don't think they can change the form factor since WebOS is portrait-oriented and has no virtual keyboard in any publicly available version. I'd love a slab, but that would put software development behind several more months.

    But look at the G1 and then look at the Droid. Cheap plastic vs. Plastic, Metal, and Glass in a more professional-looking industrial design. Plastic toy buttons versus sleek capacitive ones. Still a horizontal slider. World of difference.
  13.    #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    I said form factor and design. I don't think they can change the form factor since WebOS is portrait-oriented and has no virtual keyboard in any publicly available version. I'd love a slab, but that would put software development behind several more months.

    But look at the G1 and then look at the Droid. Cheap plastic vs. Plastic, Metal, and Glass in a more professional-looking industrial design. Plastic toy buttons versus sleek capacitive ones. Still a horizontal slider. World of difference.
    so you're saying that you think the Veer's cheap design (along w/ the dongles and screensize) is the fatal flaw it shares with the webOS phones that came before it.

    I haven't seen one upclose, but it looks very solid to me. I haven't heard a single complaint from the hands on in that department... But we'll see.

    can't argue with opinion...
  14. #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    no, the point i'm making is that android debuted with very little fanfare. Up until the release of the droid, an android device fit the description that you now reserve for webOS devices. Amazing support from the carriers, coupled with a more mature OS, and better hardware allowed Android to grow from an upstart to a giant. This is exactly what we're beginning to see happen with webOS.
    I think it's very different.

    1. The HTC Hero actually was the first Android handset with fanfare, and it preceded the Droid worldwide by several months and by one month here in the States on Sprint. And part of its appeal was its iPhone-esque form factor Now, the slab is the predominant Android form factor, and hardware keyboards, trackpads, and balls all got moves to the outer fringe of its hardware spectrum (I have an Epic 4G, and I open the hardware keyboard maybe once every couple of months. It's that unneeded. I bought it for the screen, 4G and processing power, not the QWERTY. HP is moving in the exact opposite direction, designwise.
    2. Android already had 16,000 or so apps by the time the Hero hit Sprint in America, and their momentum -before anyone knew anything about Droid - would've put them over 20,000 and near 30,000 easy just based on the G1/Magic/Hero trifecta. HP is essentially rebooting app development from an already anemic 5K of apps in 20 months.
    3. Not sure where you are "beginning to see" "amazing support" happen with carriers in regard to WebOS current products.

    no, they fixed the build quality issues. That was just part of the problem...
    But the Pre 2 is faster as well, isn't it? Double the speed.
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    so you're saying that you think the Veer's cheap design (along w/ the dongles and screensize) is the fatal flaw it shares with the webOS phones that came before it.

    I haven't seen one upclose, but it looks very solid to me. I haven't heard a single complaint from the hands on in that department... But we'll see.

    can't argue with opinion...
    I just don't think "solid" is the way to launch a platform. I think the WP7 launch lineup of hardware is solid. And it excites....no one, really.

    If you're going to bring it, bring it. Let's get some sexy blends of plastic, metal, and glass happening. They used that concept for their Envy high-end line of laptops to good (if KIRF-y) effect. Why not do the same for the flagship phones?
  16.    #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    I think it's very different.

    1. The HTC Hero actually was the first Android handset with fanfare, and it preceded the Droid worldwide by several months and by one month here in the States on Sprint. And part of its appeal was its iPhone-esque form factor Now, the slab is the predominant Android form factor, and hardware keyboards, trackpads, and balls all got moves to the outer fringe of its hardware spectrum (I have an Epic 4G, and I open the hardware keyboard maybe once every couple of months. It's that unneeded. I bought it for the screen, 4G and processing power, not the QWERTY. HP is moving in the exact opposite direction, designwise.
    regardless of which phone you believe got android over the hill, it's still invalid to assume that future devices based on a more mature OS, with more $ behind them, and improved quality assurance, is doomed to failure. Android, like WebOS started out rocky. But with the right people supporting it and great marketing, it climbed to the top.

    You can dislike the Pre formfactor and design all you want, but chances are, those weren't the factors that lead to failure. Build quality (which brought High return rates), palms inability to get it into more markets, palms inability to open the paid app catalog to all markets, and palms insuffiecient cash to reiterate often enough, and palms inabilty to keep OS upgrade up to pace (substancewise) are much more likely to blame.

    and if i'm not mistaken, the Pre performed better on Sprint than the Hero did, despite it not following Apples design route.

    2. Android already had 16,000 or so apps by the time the Hero hit Sprint in America, and their momentum -before anyone knew anything about Droid - would've put them over 20,000 and near 30,000 easy just based on the G1/Magic/Hero trifecta. HP is essentially rebooting app development from an already anemic 5K of apps in 20 months.
    This highlight another issue that hurt Palm sales that isn't design related. They never got the APIs finalized and they never gave every market access to paid apps. Hard to get apps in that environment.

    HP will have the pull and provide the type of scale to court developers. And if they can't get key developers, they'll do it themselves. We've already seen several enterprise developers pledge support for Enyo, and iOS developers are migrating with hopes to capitalize on the lack of saturation. This won't be a problem anymore.

    3. Not sure where you are "beginning to see" "amazing support" happen with carriers in regard to WebOS current products.
    this was in regards to future products. Admittedly it's more of a hunch that a fact, but I just don't see carriers treating HP the same way they treat little old Palm. Also, HP will be able to hold the kind of world wide launch Palm could only dream of.


    But the Pre 2 is faster as well, isn't it? Double the speed.
    yes, but the Pre2 lauch was MORE poorly executed than Pre launch. Simply making a better phone isn't enough. The entire strategy needed improvement. An improvement I believe HP will bring with this next round of devices.
  17.    #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    HP has no shot at all at the feature phone market. Those manufacturers have been making interesting durable phones with long battery life for years. They have mobile hardware down. Palm did not. HP does not.
    what I was referring to is HP's opportunity to capitalize as the smartphone market begins to eat into the feature phone market. People are becoming willing to trade in battery life for the connectivity smartphones bring.
  18. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    regardless of which phone you believe got android over the hill, it's still invalid to assume that future devices based on a more mature OS, with more $ behind them, and improved quality assurance, is doomed to failure. Android, like WebOS started out rocky. But with the right people supporting it and great marketing, it climbed to the top.
    Sure, but my point is that it did so by offering WAY more attractive hardware that differed GREATLY in design from the original "rocky" handsets. HP isn't doing that. They're adhering to that design rigidly.

    You can dislike the Pre formfactor and design all you want, but chances are, those weren't the factors that lead to failure. Build quality (which brought High return rates), palms inability to get it into more markets, palms inability to open the paid app catalog to all markets, and palms insuffiecient cash to reiterate often enough, and palms inabilty to keep OS upgrade up to pace (substancewise) are much more likely to blame.
    Well, this thread isn't really about those things. We're talking about the Veer and if it can succeed 1)as a featurephone converter or 2) at all. I say "no" on both counts even with HP's cash, ostensibly better build quality, and "ability to get it into more markets". Seeing what they've done thus far with the Pre 2 is why I put quotations on that last one, BTW.

    But even if they get all of those things licked, I think any hardware that looks like a Pre - either pumped up or shrunk down - is doomed to niche status. Advertise it all you want. It's a 2008 design, and it looks it, IMO.

    and if i'm not mistaken, the Pre performed better on Sprint than the Hero did, despite it not following Apples design route.
    Sprint has no hard sales data, but what hard facts we do know are these:

    - 16 months after the launch of HTC Hero on Sprint, Sprint is still selling them for $150 with no mention of lowering the price further or EOLing it.
    - 16 months after the launch of Palm Pre on Sprint, it was EOLed after a couple of price drops and HP paying people to sign up for contracts to take them.

    HP will have the pull and provide the type of scale to court developers. And if they can't get key developers, they'll do it themselves. We've already seen several enterprise developers pledge support for Enyo, and iOS developers are migrating with hopes to capitalize on the lack of saturation. This won't be a problem anymore.
    That's odd. They seemed conspicuously absent from the Feb. 9 event. Why don't you list the major developers currently on board for Enyo?


    this was in regards to future products. Admittedly it's more of a hunch that a fact, but I just don't see carriers treating HP the same way they treat little old Palm. Also, HP will be able to hold the kind of world wide launch Palm could only dream of.
    The Pre 2 is an HP product. It was released after the acquisition, and mentioned at HP's Feb. 9 event. Still...nada. In fact, no carriers at all were mentioned at the Feb. 9 event, but Palm always had carriers mentioned at WebOS announcements. Seems like a regression.

    yes, but the Pre2 lauch was MORE poorly executed than Pre launch. Simply making a better phone isn't enough. The entire strategy needed improvement. An improvement I believe HP will bring with this next round of devices.
    I believed that, too....right up until Feb.9.
  19.    #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Sure, but my point is that it did so by offering WAY more attractive hardware that differed GREATLY in design from the original "rocky" handsets. HP isn't doing that. They're adhering to that design rigidly.
    you're still assuming the design is too 'unattractive' to sell. Previous webOS phones didn't sell, but it's not because the designs were unattractive

    Well, this thread isn't really about those things. We're talking about the Veer and if it can succeed 1)as a featurephone converter or 2) at all. I say "no" on both counts even with HP's cash, ostensibly better build quality, and "ability to get it into more markets". Seeing what they've done thus far with the Pre 2 is why I put quotations on that last one, BTW.
    What HP is doing differently to ensure the market success of it's new family of products is certainly within the realm of discussion. You keep listing the formfactor/design as reasons for WebOSs struggles, when there are so many other factors that should make your concern seem like a drop in the ocean.

    With regards to the Pre2, it's clear that it was a stopgate for HP. Given that HP is actually going to market the Veer, HP continues to tout the amount of worldwide shelf space they command in response to questions about their new strategy, and is holding Pre launch events in China is evidence that they don't intend to treat their new products ALOT better.

    the Pre2 was part of Palms roadmap, and likely only existed to honor existing material orders and contracts. Sure HP owned them at the time, but the Pre2 was not part of HPs strategy.

    But even if they get all of those things licked, I think any hardware that looks like a Pre - either pumped up or shrunk down - is doomed to niche status. Advertise it all you want. It's a 2008 design, and it looks it, IMO.
    that's your opinion on the design. I don't believe the design has much to do with palms previous failures. Of the laundry list of things that went wrong, certainly isn't what needs changin.

    we'll just have to wait and see.

    Sprint has no hard sales data, but what hard facts we do know are these:

    - 16 months after the launch of HTC Hero on Sprint, Sprint is still selling them for $150 with no mention of lowering the price further or EOLing it.
    - 16 months after the launch of Palm Pre on Sprint, it was EOLed after a couple of price drops and HP paying people to sign up for contracts to take them.
    this is largely because the Pre's build quality issues were causing Sprint and their customers too much trouble.

    That's odd. They seemed conspicuously absent from the Feb. 9 event. Why don't you list the major developers currently on board for Enyo?
    just keep reading Precentral's blog


    [/quote]
    The Pre 2 is an HP product. It was released after the acquisition, and mentioned at HP's Feb. 9 event. Still...nada. In fact, no carriers at all were mentioned at the Feb. 9 event, but Palm always had carriers mentioned at WebOS announcements. Seems like a regression.



    I believed that, too....right up until Feb.9.[/QUOTE]
    Last edited by Mhunterjr; 02/24/2011 at 04:13 PM.
  20. #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    I guess the smiley is to convey the embarassment you should feel when you realize those specs were referring to the DROID doing well where the G1 did ok? (Psst...Google Nav didn't appear until 2.0)

    Try reading the posts the next time before clicking "Submit Reply".
    Whatever you say there buddy-boy. You said, and I quote:

    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912
    The G1 had a 3.7-inch hi-res screen...
    Which is FALSE. The G1 has a 3.2 screen. T-Mobile G1 (HTC Dream 100) Specs | Technical Specifications | PDAdb.net - Comprehensive Database of Smartphone, PDA, PDA Phone, PNA, netbook & Mobile Device Specifications

    You also said...

    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912
    ...free Google nav, Android 2.0
    And you were correct on Google Nav in Eclair, my mistake however you do realize that the G1 launched with Android 1.0 and only officially got Donut 1.6 right. So it is FALSE again that the G1 has GNav which was released in an update it doesn't officially have. (No, cyanogenmod doesn't count any more than preware does...)

    HTC Dream - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Re: HAVE THEY FORGOT ABOUT US??? - T-Mobile Community

    Will the G1 get Froyo? Yes. No. Maybe. | andrew | Androinica

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