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  1.    #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by barkerja View Post
    The only winner here is Google/Android; there's no real money to be made when you play in the low-end market.
    how can you say there's no money to be made? I'd say here is where there is the most money to be made? I'm not saying this market should be HPs only focus, but like android, they should have devices at all price points.

    As far as developing a low end device, HP can enjoy the same benefits as android device makers as there are no licensing fees (obviously)

    Also there's relatively little competition, and the competition that is there, has little marketing power.

    Symbian is dead, which should leave a huge vacuum in the low end market until Nokia figures out how to get Windows7 phones into this space.

    finally, even if HP's cheapo phones do little for the bottom line, they could do wonders for the install base. Having a good base by the time the touchpad comes out could be a game changer as far as the app catalog is concerned.
    Last edited by Mhunterjr; 02/20/2011 at 07:21 AM.
  2. cgk
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    #22  
    They aren't going to have an install base by the time the touchpad comes out, that's not happening. That also doesn't make sense if the proposal is that this phone is sold at bottom dollar to attract cheapos like me - they aren't going to buy a tablet. The other problem is that you build an install base who don't pay for apps (a problem Android has).

    As for the broader question - yes they could get into the low-margin, high volume fightout but where the evidence that what the veer is intended for? Nothing coming out of HP seems to suggest that - and the move itself goes against Leo's broad direction of trying to improve the quality of profits.
  3. #23  
    Another point to consider is that Google does not make its money on devices, but advertising. The bottom feeder market for Google means more eyeballs for punch-the-monkey ads. It is a completely different revenue model for Google.
  4.    #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by CGK View Post
    They aren't going to have an install base by the time the touchpad comes out, that's not happening. That also doesn't make sense if the proposal is that this phone is sold at bottom dollar to attract cheapos like me - they aren't going to buy a tablet. The other problem is that you build an install base who don't pay for apps (a problem Android has).

    As for the broader question - yes they could get into the low-margin, high volume fightout but where the evidence that what the veer is intended for? Nothing coming out of HP seems to suggest that - and the move itself goes against Leo's broad direction of trying to improve the quality of profits.
    I'm not suggesting those people will buy tablets. i'm just using the release of the tablet to establish a time frame. what i'm suggesting is that, despite its effect on the bottom line, having this install base would increase awareness of the webOS brand; making it more appealing for developers leading into the launch of the touchpad and high end phones.

    Whether or not these people on Android buy apps is more or less attributed to the structure of the Android Marketplace, not because of low end customers. But i don't think this really has an effect on the argument at all. whether or not people buy apps on the low end devices doesn't change the fact that this provide an opportunity for HP to grow its mindshare and marketshare.

    as far as evidence... i have none. I'm just throwing this out there. Its easy to say that this flies in the face of profits. But its just as easy to say that they wont make a profit from the highend if no one cares about the OS. You know what they say, you have to spend money to make money...
  5.    #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    Another point to consider is that Google does not make its money on devices, but advertising. The bottom feeder market for Google means more eyeballs for punch-the-monkey ads. It is a completely different revenue model for Google.
    different revenue model for google, same revenue model for manufactures of low-end android devices.
  6. #26  
    Mhunterjr, phones are already priced competitively on every major US carrier upfront. It's called buying the 6 months ago hotness. Verizon just dropped last generation's superphones to $99 or so. Last gen or refurb iPhones play in the same price range. Beyond that, LG's Optimus just came into each carrier at $49-99 and got some great sales. Samsung's Transform/Intercept and Zio are doing nicely on Sprint. These devices are already "converting" featurephone users, and HP dropping a Pre (which is what the Veer is, at that scale) in that space will be just like dropping a Pre into the Droid/Galaxy S/iPhone 4 space.

    Beyond the bigger-screened, more apps-having competition, have you looked at the Veer? When I said the hardware was a bigger hole at the bottom of this boat, I meant it. Featurephone users have a certain activity they like to do moreso than anything else. That would be texting.

    The Veer has a keyboard that BGR describes as "impossible for us to use comfortably"

    PhoneArena says "The second key feature of the device however – its slide-out QWERTY keyboard – has paid the price of the handset being that small. Not that the keys don't have a decent feedback or something, but it's just that they are too small to be pressed conveniently and without issues. If you are a speedy typing person, you'll probably encounter a lot of accidental mistakes with the HP Veer's QWERTY keyboard, so you'll have to slow down a bit, should you side with this compact marvel." The most positive reaction I've seen to it describes it as "usable".

    All other things equal (and they aren't), people - on first reaction - are going to take to a 3.2-3.5 screen with a virtual keyboard, or a bigger horizontal QWERTY like the Transform that's pretty much the exact same of a Rant/Rumor/a thousand other featurephone hardware QWERTY devices form factor they already use.
  7. #27  
    let me give you another description of the Veer keyboard, which I've posted previously:

    excellent.

    better than pixi or centro, on par with the BB Curve. I wouldn't personally want that tiny screen, but the keyboard is excellent, better than my Pre+.

    no complaints on the veer keyboard.
  8.    #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Mhunterjr, phones are already priced competitively on every major US carrier upfront. It's called buying the 6 months ago hotness. Verizon just dropped last generation's superphones to $99 or so. Last gen or refurb iPhones play in the same price range. Beyond that, LG's Optimus just came into each carrier at $49-99 and got some great sales. Samsung's Transform/Intercept and Zio are doing nicely on Sprint. These devices are already "converting" featurephone users, and HP dropping a Pre (which is what the Veer is, at that scale) in that space will be just like dropping a Pre into the Droid/Galaxy S/iPhone 4 space.

    Beyond the bigger-screened, more apps-having competition, have you looked at the Veer? When I said the hardware was a bigger hole at the bottom of this boat, I meant it. Featurephone users have a certain activity they like to do moreso than anything else. That would be texting.

    The Veer has a keyboard that BGR describes as "impossible for us to use comfortably"

    PhoneArena says "The second key feature of the device however – its slide-out QWERTY keyboard – has paid the price of the handset being that small. Not that the keys don't have a decent feedback or something, but it's just that they are too small to be pressed conveniently and without issues. If you are a speedy typing person, you'll probably encounter a lot of accidental mistakes with the HP Veer's QWERTY keyboard, so you'll have to slow down a bit, should you side with this compact marvel." The most positive reaction I've seen to it describes it as "usable".

    All other things equal (and they aren't), people - on first reaction - are going to take to a 3.2-3.5 screen with a virtual keyboard, or a bigger horizontal QWERTY like the Transform that's pretty much the exact same of a Rant/Rumor/a thousand other featurephone hardware QWERTY devices form factor they already use.
    see you post a couple negative impressions on the Veer's keyboard, but there are plenty of reviewers that were thoroughly impresed by it. Saying it was better than the Pre+ keyboard.

    Not only that, but outside of messaging phones, you have a large amount of people who are still using T9!

    Not only that, your tremendously underselling the Veers hardware capabilities. Performance wise it's far better than the Pre. As far as screensize is concerned, many dumbphone users are not only used to small screens, but often prefer smaller form factors.

    I find it funny when people rag on the pixi/veer screen size, while BB continues to find success with their curves and bolds.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    let me give you another description of the Veer keyboard, which I've posted previously:

    excellent.

    better than pixi or centro, on par with the BB Curve. I wouldn't personally want that tiny screen, but the keyboard is excellent, better than my Pre+.

    no complaints on the veer keyboard.
    And plenty of people here say the Pre keyboard is great, too, while it never caught on with the public-at-large. I'm willing to bet the reactions will remain mixed between the two extremes leading to a net gain of about zero. Especially with featurephone users who are used to landscape QWERTY.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    see you post a couple negative impressions on the Veer's keyboard, but there are plenty of reviewers that were thoroughly impresed by it. Saying it was better than the Pre+ keyboard.

    Not only that, but outside of messaging phones, you have a large amount of people who are still using T9!
    I'm pretty sure some used to T9 with big keys will find the Veer keyboard a negative. If only there was an onscreen keyboard to help them transition.....

    Not only that, your tremendously underselling the Veers hardware capabilities. Performance wise it's far better than the Pre. As far as screensize is concerned, many dumbphone users are not only used to small screens, but often prefer smaller form factors.

    I find it funny when people rag on the pixi/veer screen size, while BB continues to find success with their curves and bolds.
    BB finds success because it is a brand name with very familiar attributes. The HP Veer evokes nothing. The hardware isn't compelling. The monthly pricing will be just as much as bigger-screened, more mature devices with way more apps and more brand familiarity. And it's only going to be on one carrier in America - AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK - $which$ $will$ $be$ $selling$ $refurb$ $iPhones$ $and$ $Samsung$ $Captivates$ $for$ $the$ $likely$ $the$ $same$ $price$.
  11. cgk
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    #31  
    The success of the Blackberry with many demographics is down to BBM, in the UK, the biggest group buying Blackberries are teenagers because they can chat for as much as they like with no additional cost.
  12.    #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    I'm pretty sure some used to T9 with big keys will find the Veer keyboard a negative. If only there was an onscreen keyboard to help them transition.....
    who knows...


    BB finds success because it is a brand name with very familiar attributes. The HP Veer evokes nothing.
    right BB is a strong brand. And one way to build a brand is to be a solid 'first time' experience for your customers. If handled correctly, the Veer could be that.

    The hardware isn't compelling.
    correction: the hardware isn't compelling to you. Plenty of people walked away from the event intrigued and wanting to know more the Veer. I'm willing to bet that with good marketing, many others will be compelled.


    The monthly pricing will be just as much as bigger-screened, more mature devices with way more apps and more brand familiarity. And it's only going to be on one carrier in America - AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK - $which$ $will$ $be$ $selling$ $refurb$ $iPhones$ $and$ $Samsung$ $Captivates$ $for$ $the$ $likely$ $the$ $same$ $price$.
    nothing has been announced regarding carriers or pricing. Just because the FCC released documents on a GSM version doesn't mean there aren't others in the pipeline. Also, In the US, there are other carriers, other than the big4 that offer cheap smartphones, unlimited data.

    HP needs to think outside of the box
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    right BB is a strong brand. And one way to build a brand is to be a solid 'first time' experience for your customers. If handled correctly, the Veer could be that.
    If "handled correctly", any handset can sell some amount of units. I do not believe Veer is capable of being a brand equivalent to what Blackberry became. The typical use case for this device assumes too many things:

    1) That you already have a tablet or bigger screened device to enjoy media and web on the go on a decent sized screen.
    2) That you are a featurephone user looking to move to a smartphone
    3) That you have no interest in Android devices or last-gen iPhones with waaaay more recognition, apps, ecosystem and cachet sold at the same upfront price
    4) That you are like to type, but prefer a keyboard that produces mixed reaction ranging from "excellent" to "unusable".
    5) That you are on AT&T in America or a general GSM carrier elsewhere
    6) That you are going to fish for this on HP.com or somehow wade through a bazillion devices in an AT&T store or Frys or Best Buy to pick this out.
    7) That you're fine attaching a metallic dongle to really get the most use out of it.

    That just screams "mass appeal", don't you think?

    correction: the hardware isn't compelling to you. Plenty of people walked away from the event intrigued and wanting to know more the Veer. I'm willing to bet that with good marketing, many others will be compelled.
    Sorry, but no egg-shaped mini QWERTY has ever been a blockbuster seller before to mainstream consumers, and I doubt one with the caveats listed above will break the streak.

    nothing has been announced regarding carriers or pricing. Just because the FCC released documents on a GSM version doesn't mean there aren't others in the pipeline. Also, In the US, there are other carriers, other than the big4 that offer cheap smartphones, unlimited data.

    HP needs to think outside of the box
    That's not a bad idea. HP should try becoming the flagship device of Cricket, US Cellular, and MetroPCS. Work up from there.
  14. #34  
    I think the market is there if the Veer is actually marketed in a serious way. Let's face it, except for a couple of very bad attempts, NOBODY put any effort into marketing the Pre or Pixi. This can be fixed, but I don't think the Everybody On campaign quit answers the mail yet.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    let me give you another description of the Veer keyboard, which I've posted previously:

    excellent.

    better than pixi or centro, on par with the BB Curve. I wouldn't personally want that tiny screen, but the keyboard is excellent, better than my Pre+.

    no complaints on the veer keyboard.
    Saying the keyboard is Curve-like is a very bold statement...

    I'm kind of skeptical. Is it MUCH clickier than the Pre/Pixi? It doesn't look like it.
    Palm IIIc -> Sony CLIÉ T650C -> Sony TJ-37 -> Palm TX -> Palm Centro -> Palm Pre Bell -> Palm Pre Plus Bell/Verizon Hybrid -> HP Veer -> HP Pre 3 NA -> BlackBerry Classic -> BlackBerry Priv

    It's a Late Goodbye, such a Late Goodbye.

    Need OEM Palm Pre parts? See here
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by jbg7474 View Post
    I think the market is there if the Veer is actually marketed in a serious way. Let's face it, except for a couple of very bad attempts, NOBODY put any effort into marketing the Pre or Pixi. This can be fixed, but I don't think the Everybody On campaign quit answers the mail yet.
    The problem with the marketing is that by the time HP gets around to mentioning or showing the Veer, the Everybody On campaign will have turned everybody off. Right now, they are pumping a product that will not even exist until sometime in the Summer, while the Veer is slated to be released during a time when people might remember it from an ad. Yet HP does not seem to be interested in the Veer anymore than the P2.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by jbg7474 View Post
    I think the market is there if the Veer is actually marketed in a serious way. Let's face it, except for a couple of very bad attempts, NOBODY put any effort into marketing the Pre or Pixi. This can be fixed, but I don't think the Everybody On campaign quit answers the mail yet.
    I think there is some market for this device as well. I really do. But even if HP sticks the landing and somehow finds a sizable group of people who can bypass the seven hurdles I outlined above, to what end?

    If you lead with WebOS on phones as a lower-spec'd, value proposition, you're courting a group of people that are hardly going to be ideal to try and sell a tablet and ecosystem with app purchases and subscription options to. This isn't like Android where even if you gave away Angry Birds for free, Rovio would make $1 million a month in ad revenue.

    Also, just like the Pixi, you're dooming yourself to forever have a subclass of users who need apps and games optimized for their dinky 2.5-inch, 320x400 screen, as well as the Pre 3 resolution as well as the tablet. And it's not like games will "scale" in Enyo across all three effortlessly.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    I think there is some market for this device as well. I really do. But even if HP sticks the landing and somehow finds a sizable group of people who can bypass the seven hurdles I outlined above, to what end?

    If you lead with WebOS on phones as a lower-spec'd, value proposition, you're courting a group of people that are hardly going to be ideal to try and sell a tablet and ecosystem with app purchases and subscription options to. This isn't like Android where even if you gave away Angry Birds for free, Rovio would make $1 million a month in ad revenue.

    Also, just like the Pixi, you're dooming yourself to forever have a subclass of users who need apps and games optimized for their dinky 2.5-inch, 320x400 screen, as well as the Pre 3 resolution as well as the tablet. And it's not like games will "scale" in Enyo across all three effortlessly.
    I agree with some of what you say. I don't agree with all of your hurdles, but that's not important. Time will tell. With a sufficient number of buyers (measured in millions), I think it all starts to make sense. I do agree that there are hurdles. HP has to push, and get it out on multiple carriers. It's not going to sell itself.
  19.    #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    If "handled correctly", any handset can sell some amount of units. I do not believe Veer is capable of being a brand equivalent to what Blackberry became. The typical use case for this device assumes too many things:

    1) That you already have a tablet or bigger screened device to enjoy media and web on the go on a decent sized screen.
    2) That you are a featurephone user looking to move to a smartphone
    3) That you have no interest in Android devices or last-gen iPhones with waaaay more recognition, apps, ecosystem and cachet sold at the same upfront price
    4) That you are like to type, but prefer a keyboard that produces mixed reaction ranging from "excellent" to "unusable".
    5) That you are on AT&T in America or a general GSM carrier elsewhere
    6) That you are going to fish for this on HP.com or somehow wade through a bazillion devices in an AT&T store or Frys or Best Buy to pick this out.
    7) That you're fine attaching a metallic dongle to really get the most use out of it.

    That just screams "mass appeal", don't you think?



    Sorry, but no egg-shaped mini QWERTY has ever been a blockbuster seller before to mainstream consumers, and I doubt one with the caveats listed above will break the streak.



    That's not a bad idea. HP should try becoming the flagship device of Cricket, US Cellular, and MetroPCS. Work up from there.
    It's not about making assumptions, it's about tapping into new markets. Whether or not the market exists remains to be seen. Someone has to stick their heads out, and HP has the strength to handle it. Every huge reward comes after great risks, and even a few failures. I remember there was an itunes phone before there was an iphone!

    Surely, the eggshaped mini-qwerty as never been a blockbuster before. But the same could have been said about the touch-only slab prior to the iphone.

    -- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    It's not about making assumptions, it's about tapping into new markets. Whether or not the market exists remains to be seen. Someone has to stick their heads out, and HP has the strength to handle it. Every huge reward comes after great risks, and even a few failures. I remember there was an itunes phone before there was an iphone!

    Surely, the eggshaped mini-qwerty as never been a blockbuster before. But the same could have been said about the touch-only slab prior to the iphone.

    -- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
    True, but the form factor wasn't what was new and appealing about the iPhone. It was the OS, screen size, the smooth UI, the inclusion of a next-gen iPod interface, etc.

    Comparatively, the Veer is near identical to a family of handsets that has failed in the market just a number of months prior. Identical in both OS and hardware, except that it's smaller and needs a hardware attachment.

    I don't think the feat itself is impossible, but I do think it's rather difficult without any sort of significant change from what had failed before. I don't recalls reviews of the Pixi saying "You know, this would be a world beater if the keyboard was a slider to introduce moving parts that could fail, the form factor was fatter, and we did away with the convenience of having the charging port and headphone port attached..."
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