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  1. #81  
    @kkalogia: I live in The Netherlands and the app catalog doesn't let me pay for things if I choose my country. However, I chose Germany for the app catalog (and English for the system language) and my credit card is supported by the German App Catalog so I can pay for apps and already have bought a ton of apps. Perhaps you need to find a country close to you too and see if it supports your credit card?
    Jive Turkey likes this.
  2. #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post
    Poor marketing aside, these guys are the only ones building a future for webOS devices so I'm backing them.
    LOLWUT. PIC is the one who wanted to build new hardware for webOS so they are building a future, not OM. webOS needs apps, of course but at this point we're talking about two year old hardware. I still love my TP and Pre 3 and would buy 'em again if they broke down but that doesn't take away the fact that we need new hardware more than we need new software at this point. For basic usage, the software is there and there are still 3rd party devs (including me) developing for webOS. While that may not be much it's more than sufficient to at least cover the basics and therefore we need new hardware first before getting some Android emulator thing.
  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by kkalogia View Post
    Here are a couple of things i feel should be clarified so that anyone considering a pledge can make a well informed decision.

    Firstly, what is kickstarter. To the best of my understanding a company turns to potential clients/community for money for a project. Depending on the pledge you get some benefits such as a t-shirt or the product itself. Those a re described on the pledges and are pretty straight forward. If the target sum is reached then the company uses that money for the development of the program. If it fails to reach the money target then the money is simply refunded and the company has to come up with alternative means of funding. However, to the best of my knowledge there is always the chance that a company may use the money pledged but fail to deliver in which case the people that pledged the money simply lose them. Please correct me if i am wrong.
    kickstarter is just a method for gathering moneys IF the target is hit, once hit kickstarter wash their hands of all responsibility as their part has been achieved, they then take their cut and all thats left is all down to the individuals who initiated the fundraiser in this case PIC on OpenMobiles behalf.

    Kickstarter projects are notorious for having people donate assuming that they have in fact purchaced a product and that they are entitled to a result when this is not the case, donations are exactly that, donations, which unfortunatly may or may not come to fruition. The donations are meant to help people achieve what they need to get things going but its not a definate Product Purchase.

    If all goes well, you get what you pledged for, a lot of projects are 1 man shows or small groups so understanding and patience is required when awaiting delivery. However If it all goes horribly wrong, you still get billed IF the target is met even if they cant actually deliver their promise for whatever reason, but if they didnt achieve their target then kickstarter doesnt take any moneys from you and all is well.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkalogia View Post
    Secondly, for the product itself. PIC has promised to deliver a platform where u can run android apps in a card interface. This will be compatible with android 2.2 and 2.3 and not 3.0 and above. Also i it is unclear to me which apps will be supported. Free apps, paid for apps, all of them? If an android app is updated will i be able to update it as well or do i have to uninstall/reinstall?
    huge lack of info on their side in this area, id assume as they cant run the google play store to buy and install your product that you have to sideload apps, and given others have mentioned they said its all legal means, then im assuming that means non paid apps, a lot ofc is still "full" software just full of adverts/malware/adverts/etc but yeah legal. No idea at all how they would suggest you get paid for apps installed as you cant just download apk's legally on a whim.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkalogia View Post
    Thirdly, the product by PIC will be an app in itself. That means it will be bought through the app catalog. Which means geo restrictions. Unless PIC are planning to distribute this app to other countries as well the US users will be the only ones that will benefit from it. I live in Greece, so i will probably have trouble getting this app. On the other hand if you pledge 30+ $ now they promise you the product. If that is done outside the app catalog then it could the only chance for people outside the US to actually get this product.
    HP originally had issues with their product as they needed access to stuff HP was unwilling to allow at the time, apparantly that issue has gone away but its not been mentioned how or why its gone away, also if you check up on older posts from devs a lot have mentioned even the slightest of "naughty" or disallowed code means the apps doesnt get in on the HP catalogue so i find it surprising it ACl magically appeared on the market when HP previously gave a no go.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkalogia View Post
    Finally the price once it's ready. If they are offering the product with pledges above 30 $ then what are we expecting the product to cost in its final form? Around 30 $ or even more? And also for the Touchpad only. Of course should this work then it would make sense to move it to Openwebos.

    Others have mentioned the continued support and development of the product and rightly so. We've seen apps being abandoned on webos as time goes by.
    im not sure there would be an "after", i mean their examples and demos are no different from their old old ones, no improvements and still an ancient android core in use, and in all ive seen the shown off apps tend to be either rubbish stuff like a notes app (coz we really wanna see more stuff liek that?) or brief shots of stuff no-one really wants to see, it doesnt help them 1 bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkalogia View Post
    What i can't fathom is why, if they are at alpha stage and they believe the can have a final product by July didn't LG show any interest in this. Getting all those apps on your ecosystem for a small amount of money (35.000 $ as they claim they need) would be quite beneficial. So did they ever approach LG with this or not? In other words what insurance can one have that this is not total vaporware?

    Having said all that, i really hope this works, but i am not counting on it.
    LG likely wont be interested if A) its an ancient android, B) cant install apps in a user friendly way, C) requires access (or used too) to propritary webOS innards, D) they have eyes and have read openmobiles history on not just webOS but the fistloads of other OS groups they have been courting and in some cases far longer than webOS and E) likely many other issues ive forgotten atm.
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  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by Vistaus View Post
    @kkalogia: I live in The Netherlands and the app catalog doesn't let me pay for things if I choose my country. However, I chose Germany for the app catalog (and English for the system language) and my credit card is supported by the German App Catalog so I can pay for apps and already have bought a ton of apps. Perhaps you need to find a country close to you too and see if it supports your credit card?
    Thx for the tip Vistaus, i appreciate it. Although we down here in the South of Europe are not so lucky when in to comes to credit . If push comes to shove i do have friends in Germany and could probably arrange for a credit card there, still geo restrictions are hampering the ever smaller webos app market.
  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by Vistaus View Post
    LOLWUT. PIC is the one who wanted to build new hardware for webOS so they are building a future, not OM. webOS needs apps, of course but at this point we're talking about two year old hardware. I still love my TP and Pre 3 and would buy 'em again if they broke down but that doesn't take away the fact that we need new hardware more than we need new software at this point. For basic usage, the software is there and there are still 3rd party devs (including me) developing for webOS. While that may not be much it's more than sufficient to at least cover the basics and therefore we need new hardware first before getting some Android emulator thing.
    chicken egg egg chicken

    new hardware is great but without anything to slap on it whats your sales pitch to new or departed users? If you dont have apps, clone them from elsewhere till you do as a stopgap measure till native stuff arrives.

    its fine US webOS entusiasts getting excited about new funky hardware but us few arent going to bring about a new revitalised webOS age, for that you need new people, and new people arent satisfied with running stock apps on hardware even if its the most shiney, new, feature packed hardware on the planet.
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  6. #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by geekpeter View Post
    chicken egg egg chicken

    new hardware is great but without anything to slap on it whats your sales pitch to new or departed users? If you dont have apps, clone them from elsewhere till you do as a stopgap measure till native stuff arrives.

    its fine US webOS entusiasts getting excited about new funky hardware but us few arent going to bring about a new revitalised webOS age, for that you need new people, and new people arent satisfied with running stock apps on hardware even if its the most shiney, new, feature packed hardware on the planet.
    What I meant was: let's first arrange new hardware, then pump up the software side.
  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by Vistaus View Post
    What I meant was: let's first arrange new hardware, then pump up the software side.
    yeah but whos doing the software side and how long does that take? It took virtually no time at all for people to see the touchpad app selection was pretty weak even for a new device before they already talked about leaving for android/apple.

    you cant realistically believe that people will "wait" for software to arrive, we already know from the touchpads arrival that just doesnt happen. heaps of people left because they didnt have access to netflix/splashtop/vnc-rdp software/smartoffice and loads of other stuff and by the time we got 2 of those tons had already bailed.

    and lets be fair here, back then when they did that the touchpad was "new", newer than any device we will realistically get a open webOS port into and it didnt work out well back then.

    so yeah, software is important if you want others back in this eco-system, you and me may be fine with what we have but what you and me buy/use wont keep webOS afloat. There are nutters out there willing to part with their cash for the dumbest of things on the google/apple stores and theres /$$ and recognition to be earned that way.

    i cant think of 1 good reason why anyone would return to webOS or migrate towards it just because theres a new piece of hardware out for it if they cant actually do anything with it or buy much of anything.
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  8. #88  
    Yes, unfortunately, you pretty much need to have everything in place for webOS to comeback in a significant way.

    Apple's share price is falling because they continue to iterate the iphone and investors are now asking where's the next "Wow!" product to maintain the incredible sales? That's how hard this game is. Microsoft must still be spending all those years of windows income on propping up their mobile OS.

    Palm had the potential, but not the cash, HP had the cash, but they blinked when they realised how much they'd have to invest to gain enough traction. They were right about PC's - sales are dropping off, but mobile is where it's at now and HP have admitted it's a market they should be in. LG are at least in the game. If they have various video and entertainment apps for their TVs (which are pretty good quality) then it's possible they could bring some software value to webOS. They have also shown they can deliver quality hardware phone-wise. But like everyone else they are losing ground as Samsung becomes a monster. HTC have now taken the Apple route of one great device. Maybe LG will try to differentiate with webOS. Even Samsung realises their success is dependent on Google and are looking at Tizen for insurance.

    Let's say LG bring out a handset - it's a big risk. They may be surviving with Android. With webOS, everyone will say it's old. They'll ask where the apps are... etc. I think LG's best bet is to pick hopefully their best next handset that's running Android and port webOS to it, offering it as an option or even as some have suggested, an unsupported download. That could test for interest but, again it has to be a good product and a technology like ACL could bridge between, "Where are the apps?" and a full catalogue of native apps. It's a bootstrap technology.

    Porting to the Gnex is all very well for devs as a fun project, but it's not done yet and the Gnex is also starting to age now. Unless it's a stepping stone that will make it easier to port to future (or at least current) nexus devices, it won't be of much interest beyond a minority - not even all of us on this site. I think the ACL concept has the potential to appeal to the mass of users who want to just go into a shop and buy the latest shiny thing ready to go but there are many question marks around OM.

    webOS needs to be up to date as a system, on widely available quailty hardware and with a significant sized, quality app-catalogue. That's a big effort. I applaud the efforts of webOS-internals, ports & PIC but it's clearly moving very slowly as they just don't have the resources. The only other possibility I see is going to this Blu manufacturer and putting in a minimum order for a decent spec handset to sell as a product to this community and possibly attempt to grow from there, but the economics will have to add up and again, someone will have to put down a load of money.

    ACL can be a smart and economical move to bring more value to the platform, but if PIC are serious they need to address every query and criticism and be in a position to demonstrably hold OM to it's commitments. They should be here talking to their potential investors/customers and reassuring us.
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  9. #89  
    its a shame 72ka hit the main gfx related stumbling block so many devs have when porting open webOS, he was porting to nice cheap chineese allwinner based devices and i own several and even tho they are cheap i like them and they work fine.

    imho tho its the perfect target, just need something cheap and readily available and open enough to use/abuse and reccomend to others that wont break the bank.

    its my firm belief that decent cheap "good enough" devices are the way ahead for many, im more than happy with teh 4 recent "cheapo" chineese/hong kong devices ive bought recently, phone and tablet, im amazed their not more popular than they currently are considering their specs to price ratio.

    On 1 hand im asking ppl to be weary of the current ACL incarnation but tbh i still want ACL or a variant that does the perfect job of invisibly using androdi apps as a stopgap, it IS a helpful solution to bring back interest, in its current form tho its nto terribly useful or user friendly.

    The perfect solution in my mind, a cheap device that works just as well as the competition and can run native or foreign android apps (hell id even take firefox/ubuntu ones, just something active and current) seamlessly within webOS, to me thats plain awesome allround.
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  10. #90  
    When is the next webOS internals webathon? I think something that brings the community together is needed. A lot of us are bitter after being burned too many times and aren't ready to love again. This kickstarter thing will be great if it meets its goal because it will show that the community is still strong. I still think it would be better suited to contribute towards the porting efforts, but this is on everyone's radar right now so we will talk about it.

    Imagine the support that could be gathered by a kickstarter for a working open webos port? If we could get someone to commit to a deadline then it could be done on kickstarter, but that group knows better than to talk about ETAs.
    White Z10, Touchpad 16GB [Retired: Pre 3, Pre 2, Pixi Plus, Pre Plus]
    Back on a BlackBerry after 2 1/2 years with WebOS.

    One-step Picasa batch image upload: http://forums.webosnation.com/hp-tou...ecl-webos.html
  11. #91  
    unfortunatly no matter how much you donate to a kickstarter project for open webOS devs cant magic accelerated gfx drivers out of thin air, which is typically their main stumbling block.
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    #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by geekpeter View Post
    its a shame 72ka hit the main gfx related stumbling block so many devs have when porting open webOS...
    So is this the issue that all Palm/HP hardware had some kind of obscure double-buffering system, which WebOS 1.x - > 3.x used to accelerate performance in a unique way? I vaguely remember this coming up in a few porting threads, and it seemed like a really interesting "submarine" issue that is actually quite central to the future of WebOS on any kind of new device. IIRC it had to do with using one buffer for normal screen drawing, and another when the user put the device into card mode?
  13. #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by kevets View Post
    When is the next webOS internals webathon?
    It looks like they are good for awhile.

    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby View Post
    At the moment, WebOS Internals and WebOS Ports have sufficient funds from the last donation drive to purchase development devices and pay for server operating expenses.

    For software artifacts, we never ask for donations before we have released something to be thankful for...

    -- Rod
    Due to the cancellation of the penny, I no longer give 2 about anything. I may however, give a nickel
  14. #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by pl212 View Post
    So is this the issue that all Palm/HP hardware had some kind of obscure double-buffering system, which WebOS 1.x - > 3.x used to accelerate performance in a unique way? I vaguely remember this coming up in a few porting threads, and it seemed like a really interesting "submarine" issue that is actually quite central to the future of WebOS on any kind of new device. IIRC it had to do with using one buffer for normal screen drawing, and another when the user put the device into card mode?
    Display Drivers | Android Open Source
    and a few other pages/wiki's etc explain the framebuffer requirements/issues/problems etc, and yeah from what i understand android uses 1, webOS requires 2 and i think the issue is also linux kernel version related as well?

    [OpenwebOS-general] Cards accelerated rendering

    another thread talking about webOS framebuffer problems when everyone is supporting just android standards.
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  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by kevets View Post
    This kickstarter thing will be great if it meets its goal because it will show that the community is still strong.
    I sincerely hope that the backers don't end up replacing 'still strong' with 'gullible' in that sentence...

    -- Rod
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  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby View Post
    I sincerely hope that the backers don't end up replacing 'still strong' with 'gullible' in that sentence...

    -- Rod
    173 backers and rising
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  17. #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by sledge007 View Post
    It looks like they are good for awhile.

    I wonder if Internals would ever pay for some Devs to help out to speed things up a bit? I'd be willing to donate more money for them to Hire a couple people to help out in area's they are stuck at. even not for profits sometimes have to pay out some money to get some things moving a little faster.

    maybe a bounty for each thing they need done or something?
    Last edited by Greg Mair; 04/29/2013 at 08:39 AM.
  18. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Mair View Post
    I wonder if Internals would ever pay for some Devs to help out to speed things up a bit? I'd be willing to donate more money for them to Hire a couple people to help out in area's they are stuck at. even not for profits sometimes have to pay out some money to get some things moving a little faster.

    maybe a bounty for each thing they need done or something?
    i think all their problems are largely due to "incompatible or closed source drivers" and personal time as opposed to funding.
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  19. #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by geekpeter View Post
    i think all their problems are largely due to "incompatible or closed source drivers" and personal time as opposed to funding.

    the Incompatible or closed source drivers I have no clue. but if it's man hours they need then what i'm saying might work. unless paying for people is totally against what they do i'm not sure.
  20. #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby View Post
    I sincerely hope that the backers don't end up replacing 'still strong' with 'gullible' in that sentence...

    -- Rod
    Agreed - I think this is a misguided effort, but it's something... and people seem to be latching on to it. I don't like the position that we are put in though and it may have the effect of dividing some of the community. If the kickstarter fails, then that's validation to some that the support isn't there for this OS. If it succeeds and gets funded, maybe we'll be able to run gingerbread apps on our Touchpad, and we can all groan about that.

    It's a lose/lose situation if you ask me, but it's showing that people want to do something. Most of us just don't have the expertise to directly help the porting efforts.

    A kickstarter to bring Matias Duarte to LG / Zenith? to take this job would be fun. That would probably take millions of dollars though. Too bad Google will probably never let him go with the positive impact he's had on Android.

    I think my time machine idea would be the best way. I'd go back and kick the guy in charge of those creepy ads, and remind Hurd to keep it in his pants.
    White Z10, Touchpad 16GB [Retired: Pre 3, Pre 2, Pixi Plus, Pre Plus]
    Back on a BlackBerry after 2 1/2 years with WebOS.

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