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  1. #841  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    I have already stated that if PIC/OM fails to deliver on their promises, I will be one of the folks lighting the torches. The comment was not aimed at you or one person in general. We have heard ad nauseam the distrust for OM. We got it. Let's move on please and wish them luck instead of contempt. If this works as advertised it will be a boon for all of us who love webOS, the operating system, but are stuck using another OS because of a lack of apps.
    PIC have some leeway tho as its their 1st promise and part way to delivered/actioned.

    OM deserve the torches even now on all the other platforms their still "promising away" to this day, and some have been teased for longer than us and have nothing to show for it
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  2. #842  
    Quote Originally Posted by geekpeter View Post
    hindsight after 2+ years is a wonderful thing, just remember tho no1 has issues with PIC, its all about OM and always has been, PIC have delivered via OM due to our funding and their effort to bring a product, but if you still look at what OM have delivered to all their other targets they have promised ACL for, they have nothing to show for it on any platform.

    So yeah PIC are and always have been fine, OM even now still deserve their self gained reputation.
    ..but do we have to hear about this on every other post? We get it.. no trust for OM.
  3. #843  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    ..but do we have to hear about this on every other post? We get it.. no trust for OM.
    we probably will if we keep seeing the occasional thread where someone may have forgotten or ignored that important fact.

    fair play if theres a good post regarding the subject, obviously that should be directed at PIC, but some posts are hard to tell if the "good stuff" was targeted at PIC or OM.

    The 2 or so larger main ACL threads are filled with both good and bad responses where the PIC / OM line is blurred as if they were 1 entity rather than completely seperate.

    nm, ittl all end soon enough, for us at least, out of interest can anyone remember who are/were the crowds of other OS that have been waiting longer than us? was it meego/tizen/some1 else? been that long i cant recall, some1 did link a few forum threads to the other poor people that seemed infuriated we were getting somethign and they were still in the cold.

    Wonder if theres been any more news on the other OS sites.
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  4. hulickr's Avatar
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    #844  
    Quote Originally Posted by Remy X View Post
    I think it even reached $40,000+ by the time the fundraiser was over.

    Glad you see my point. To me, it's a lot like taking municipal tap water, filtering it and then reselling it at a markup, with the same price as Evian. A contentious issue.

    And while i'm not a Stallman-ite, it would be interesting to see if they will release partial source code, in accordance with GPL. I'll be waiting for that and for any word regarding the security hole, which takes minimal effort to patch, thanks to Google.
    You certainly have a point, and I respect your opinions and involvement in everything you do, so this is not a flame.
    You are quite possibly right about what could have been done in an open source situation with that amount of funding. (I'm not knowledgeable enough about the technical feasibility, and I think you are well enough qualified to support your opinion). The drawback to that however, is the fact that there was no open-source group willing (or able) to organize, raise funds and build an ACL based on the open source Dalvick VM for the webOS platform in such a timeframe. So while many can be skeptical, which may be valid, in the end, I don't think it can really be argued that this was the wrong action. Its not released yet, (and pre-release pushed again today), but realistically, this is (ussumeably) delivering something that was not previously available in a quick timeframe.
    Open source COULD have delivered, but didn't. OM did have a head start it seems, and assuming they deliver, and all of our worst fears aren't realized, then it seems they've been able to get to where we are rather quickly. Sometimes leveraging existing work may provide better value to the user community. I'm more a user than a developer, and I do believe in and support the homebrew, internals and ports community.
    I don't disagree with your point about the what-if, should OM end up against a wall, and the community then has no access to take the ball without starting from scratch.
    I just thought I'd share an alternate perspective and something to consider for the body of users that really want something to keep us in the community, so that there potentially IS a community for ports, LG or whatever may happen, to keep webOS alive.
    Roy

    Pre3 is here !! Loving it
    Sprint FrankenPre2 - Touchpad - Homebrew galore
    History: Treo 300, Treo 600, Treo 650, Palm Pre
    k4ever and Remy X like this.
  5. #845  
  6. qbenguy's Avatar
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    #846  
    Hey All,

    Below is a copy of an email that I received earlier today:

    Hi everyone,

    We regret to have to announce that due to some delays in development this week's pre-release of ACL will not be able to go out as planned.

    Although the hardware acceleration has now been implemented, in our regression testing we have seen a number of spinoff issues that really disrupt the user experience in big ways, and though we hate to change the schedule we believe the new annoyances and issues are disruptive enough to warrant the delay.

    We will now have the Pre-Release on September 17th while moving back the Kickstarter Backers Special Preview to September 23rd.

    The official release date of September 30th remains unchanged however.

    Sorry for the bad news, but as you can see things are progressing well and we are we are definitely in the final stretch and will get this complete and onto your devices very soon.
  7. #847  
    Got that one too... I'm trying hard not to take <fake> bets on the chances they end up not making the release date too. Still giving them the benefit of the doubt here. It's a hell of an undertaking they have going - especially on a currently zombified OS - and they are bound to run into unforeseen snags (even our company hits those). Still rooting for them to hit the target date!
  8. #848  
    hmm...any +ve progress for ACL is better than nothing for our zombified WebOS. At least for those with Touchpads , it would enable us to enjoy some stuff (apps) etc even in emulation mode.

    I wonder whether off the bat will it support the TP Go? this is rare item doubt the devs will support this.
  9. #849  
    Quote Originally Posted by HelloNNNewman View Post
    Got that one too... I'm trying hard not to take <fake> bets on the chances they end up not making the release date too. Still giving them the benefit of the doubt here. It's a hell of an undertaking they have going - especially on a currently zombified OS - and they are bound to run into unforeseen snags (even our company hits those). Still rooting for them to hit the target date!
    I agree wholeheartedly and, considering that we will get some form of hardware accelleration that many here thought would not come on the first release (or ever), I think we can all stomach the few extra days. I'm looking forward now to (hopefully) play games like Anomaly on ACL when before I was only expecting to play Plants vs Zombies.
  10. #850  
    Quote Originally Posted by hulickr View Post
    You certainly have a point, and I respect your opinions and involvement in everything you do, so this is not a flame.
    You are quite possibly right about what could have been done in an open source situation with that amount of funding. (I'm not knowledgeable enough about the technical feasibility, and I think you are well enough qualified to support your opinion). The drawback to that however, is the fact that there was no open-source group willing (or able) to organize, raise funds and build an ACL based on the open source Dalvick VM for the webOS platform in such a timeframe. So while many can be skeptical, which may be valid, in the end, I don't think it can really be argued that this was the wrong action. Its not released yet, (and pre-release pushed again today), but realistically, this is (ussumeably) delivering something that was not previously available in a quick timeframe.
    Open source COULD have delivered, but didn't. OM did have a head start it seems, and assuming they deliver, and all of our worst fears aren't realized, then it seems they've been able to get to where we are rather quickly. Sometimes leveraging existing work may provide better value to the user community. I'm more a user than a developer, and I do believe in and support the homebrew, internals and ports community.
    I don't disagree with your point about the what-if, should OM end up against a wall, and the community then has no access to take the ball without starting from scratch.
    I just thought I'd share an alternate perspective and something to consider for the body of users that really want something to keep us in the community, so that there potentially IS a community for ports, LG or whatever may happen, to keep webOS alive.
    This!! Excellent post. I remember something about a saying about a bird in the hand. I've been using Linux for 15 years now. I highly respect and admire the open source community. It drives me nuts when I hear someone in the community complain about paying for software or how a paid project should have been open sourced. Hey, some of us don't mind paying for software that meets a need when there is obviously no other alternative.
  11. #851  
    Quote Originally Posted by HelloNNNewman View Post
    Got that one too... I'm trying hard not to take <fake> bets on the chances they end up not making the release date too. Still giving them the benefit of the doubt here. It's a hell of an undertaking they have going - especially on a currently zombified OS - and they are bound to run into unforeseen snags (even our company hits those). Still rooting for them to hit the target date!
    I've been really quiet here because I've been pounding away on bug reports to help PIC work with OM to get this thing stable. I've recieved several releases since my New York trip (started at 0.4.7 - we are up to 0.4.13) and I just got the 3D accelerated release but even OM warned us it needs a bit more work before its ready for prime time. Hell - just getting the 3D accelerated graphics working is a really big thing! I was really surprised to learn just how hard OM is working to get this done.

    Are they going to make the target date? I think it's just going to be an issue of deciding when to say: "That's all we can get into a stable 1.0 release." But I think that people are really going to be pleasanly surprised when they do get their copies ... I know I am with what I have already.
  12. #852  
    Quote Originally Posted by daexpression View Post
    I wonder whether off the bat will it support the TP Go? this is rare item doubt the devs will support this.
    Doubtful PIC will support this, although it should work fine on the TP GO. Hardware is almost identical, and even though the screen is smaller on the GO, the resolution is the same on the TP and the TP GO.

    I suggest getting the device up to 3.0.5 first using John Steffes 3.0.5 meta doctor script for the GO before even thinking about the ACL. Looks like you still have a few weeks to get this accomplished!

    TTB
    Last edited by TopTongueBarry; 09/10/2013 at 08:54 AM.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I am an AT&T employee and the postings on this site are my own and donít necessarily represent AT&Tís positions, strategies or opinions.
  13. #853  
    Quote Originally Posted by cuspie View Post
    I think that people are really going to be pleasanly surprised when they do get their copies ... I know I am with what I have already.
    You just made my day.

    THANKS!

    TTB
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I am an AT&T employee and the postings on this site are my own and donít necessarily represent AT&Tís positions, strategies or opinions.
  14. #854  
    Thanks for the report Cuspie!
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  15. #855  
    Quote Originally Posted by TopTongueBarry View Post
    Doubtful PIC will support this, although it should work fine on the TP GO. Hardware is almost identical, and even though the screen is smaller on the GO, the resolution is the same on the TP and the TP GO.

    I suggest getting the device up to 3.0.5 first using John Steffes 3.0.5 meta doctor script for the GO before even thinking about the ACL. Looks like you still have a few weeks to get this accomplished!

    TTB
    I don't remember if Preware reports the Touchpad GO as anything different than a Touchpad. However, the installer package is marked Touchpad device only.
  16. #856  
    Quote Originally Posted by cuspie View Post
    I don't remember if Preware reports the Touchpad GO as anything different than a Touchpad. However, the installer package is marked Touchpad device only.
    cuspie, can you give us an idea of which apps you have gotten to work with ACL? How is the app install process? Are you using Play or an OM/PIC app store?

    Sent from my TouchPad using Tapatalk 4
    Last edited by HelloNNNewman; 09/10/2013 at 01:23 PM.
  17. #857  
    @cuspie - awesome to hear! Thanks for the update!
  18. #858  
    Quote Originally Posted by hulickr View Post
    You certainly have a point, and I respect your opinions and involvement in everything you do, so this is not a flame.
    You are quite possibly right about what could have been done in an open source situation with that amount of funding. (I'm not knowledgeable enough about the technical feasibility, and I think you are well enough qualified to support your opinion). The drawback to that however, is the fact that there was no open-source group willing (or able) to organize, raise funds and build an ACL based on the open source Dalvick VM for the webOS platform in such a timeframe. So while many can be skeptical, which may be valid, in the end, I don't think it can really be argued that this was the wrong action. Its not released yet, (and pre-release pushed again today), but realistically, this is (ussumeably) delivering something that was not previously available in a quick timeframe.
    Open source COULD have delivered, but didn't. OM did have a head start it seems, and assuming they deliver, and all of our worst fears aren't realized, then it seems they've been able to get to where we are rather quickly. Sometimes leveraging existing work may provide better value to the user community. I'm more a user than a developer, and I do believe in and support the homebrew, internals and ports community.
    I don't disagree with your point about the what-if, should OM end up against a wall, and the community then has no access to take the ball without starting from scratch.
    I just thought I'd share an alternate perspective and something to consider for the body of users that really want something to keep us in the community, so that there potentially IS a community for ports, LG or whatever may happen, to keep webOS alive.
    Thank you

    I appreciate your civil and level-headed approach.

    However, PIC is an equal opportunity open and closed source company, they do not limit themselves to only closed source code written from scratch. They did raise the funds and organize the effort, and they could have chosen either way. They chose to work with OpenMobile, who would now own the results of what we funded, and what we get is only a license to use their product, and no guarantees. PIC gets nothing out of this, except for people's gratitude.

    Since OpenMobile already uses Dalvik, and anyone else can take it and write the "glue" that makes it work under webOS, i think an opportunity was missed, and when an open source effort comes around to rebuild this, i doubt they'll be able to raise even $3,000, because the community has already paid out a lot, and nobody will care anymore. This is what makes me sad.

    As for the "head start", i doubt it was more than two weeks, unless you also consider a situation where PIC is unable to find any developers. In that case, it's a little more than a month.


    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    This!! Excellent post. I remember something about a saying about a bird in the hand. I've been using Linux for 15 years now. I highly respect and admire the open source community. It drives me nuts when I hear someone in the community complain about paying for software or how a paid project should have been open sourced. Hey, some of us don't mind paying for software that meets a need when there is obviously no other alternative.
    I think you're looking at it the wrong way. I personally would have chipped in to fund ACL (much more than the $30 license fee) if i knew that this community would own the work. Since OM does, and no one else, i couldn't be bothered to spend even a dime on it.

    It's not like i expect something for free.
    RumoredNow likes this.
  19. #859  
    Quote Originally Posted by cuspie View Post
    I've been really quiet here because I've been pounding away on bug reports to help PIC work with OM to get this thing stable. I've recieved several releases since my New York trip (started at 0.4.7 - we are up to 0.4.13) and I just got the 3D accelerated release but even OM warned us it needs a bit more work before its ready for prime time. Hell - just getting the 3D accelerated graphics working is a really big thing! I was really surprised to learn just how hard OM is working to get this done.

    Are they going to make the target date? I think it's just going to be an issue of deciding when to say: "That's all we can get into a stable 1.0 release." But I think that people are really going to be pleasanly surprised when they do get their copies ... I know I am with what I have already.
    any idea if the changes PIC are making end up working their way back to OM or are PIC making changes that affect us on our platform alone.

    Its nice enough to know that you say your getting plenty of updates/changes made, hopefully many wont complain when the release dates get pushed back and back, as im assuming your/other peoples feedback is whats ironing out more bugs but as a result needs more time to polish/fix before us regular grunts get our hands on it.

    cheers for the update posts tho, at least we know thigns are in motion and at a steady pace.
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  20. hulickr's Avatar
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    #860  
    Quote Originally Posted by Remy X View Post
    Thank you

    I appreciate your civil and level-headed approach.

    However, PIC is an equal opportunity open and closed source company, they do not limit themselves to only closed source code written from scratch. They did raise the funds and organize the effort, and they could have chosen either way. They chose to work with OpenMobile, who would now own the results of what we funded, and what we get is only a license to use their product, and no guarantees. PIC gets nothing out of this, except for people's gratitude.

    Since OpenMobile already uses Dalvik, and anyone else can take it and write the "glue" that makes it work under webOS, i think an opportunity was missed, and when an open source effort comes around to rebuild this, i doubt they'll be able to raise even $3,000, because the community has already paid out a lot, and nobody will care anymore. This is what makes me sad.

    As for the "head start", i doubt it was more than two weeks, unless you also consider a situation where PIC is unable to find any developers. In that case, it's a little more than a month.
    Heh, who thought people could be level-headed on the internet

    I have to believe OM was more than a month into their development, but hey, who knows? :-)

    If PIC had taken their funding to the open-source webOS community instead of OM, there are potential benefits in the long term, or heaven forbid in the short term even for the community. Nobody can say right now if they made the "right" choice. In principle I do agree with you about the strength and benefit of open source. However in practicality, while open source can bring great things, it can also bring complications via organization and coordination issues and of course dedication of time issues given its volunteer nature. Of course corporate (mis)directions can bring unexpected results also, to be kind... (We all can appreciate the mega-fail that can occur. (HP!) :-). But we (at least I) don't know whether PIC has the specific open-source product management capabilities to direct that level of a project in a global open source world.

    I can't speak for them, only my experience in product management in general. I sense that they are enthusiasts, who want to make a difference, but they aren't necessarily strong enough in the ability to directly deliver a project like this without an existing dev organization structure to influence, but work alongside. And so this was their opportunity and their strength. And if my intuition is accurate regarding their goals and talents, then I'm ok with it. Yeah, organizing a true webOS community project would have been the ideal thing. We all know the strength of our community, and what it has delivered in the past, and what we're working on at the present. We could have done it with the right motivation and organization.

    But now we have to wait to see who's guess was the best, because regardless of our perspectives on the subject, none of us really knows if this was a smart move or a boondoggle. Whichever way it turns out, a bunch will sound smart and the others will seem fools. But its neither. Its a leap of faith, flavored by some knowledge, of taking a calculated risk and going with what you believe at the time will achieve your goal most efficiently. I personally hope it gets delivered and we can stop worrying.:-)

    Cheers
    Last edited by hulickr; 09/10/2013 at 10:05 PM. Reason: typo
    Roy

    Pre3 is here !! Loving it
    Sprint FrankenPre2 - Touchpad - Homebrew galore
    History: Treo 300, Treo 600, Treo 650, Palm Pre
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