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  1. #621  
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMARTPre3 View Post
    Well now its clear what that picture exactly says...

    Is there anyone that could give an insight how much upgrading ACL to 4.x would cost? And after that how much extra it would cost for a port to Pre3?

    I mean, if an estimate can be given what is needed for ACL on Touchpad with ANdroid 2.x support, aka 35k USD, there should be an estimate what it costs to do the other stages. Right?

    I would like to know this, to know how much hope or not I can have on getting it on Pre3 myself. Or how much I would donate if I know that for example update to 4.x would cost 10k extra and port to Pre3 another 5k extra or something.

    Anyone that has some insight in this?
    I suspect that the $35k figure was based largely on what PIC had to pay OpenMobile to release the alpha to them. The amount of extra work to release it sounds like it is fairly minimal (given the demos so far that seem fairly complete if in need of some optimization).

    Upgrading the engine to 4.x would be a pretty large piece of work requiring significant coding and therefore much harder to put a number on.

    Releasing for Pre3 should be a simpler task and I would have thought a number could be put on that fairly quickly. In fact I am surprised they prioritized 4.x over Pre3 given that the latter opens up a whole extra market whilst the former just adds a few (albeit significant) apps to the initial market.
  2. #622  
    Quote Originally Posted by andyhurley View Post
    I suspect that the $35k figure was based largely on what PIC had to pay OpenMobile to release the alpha to them. The amount of extra work to release it sounds like it is fairly minimal (given the demos so far that seem fairly complete if in need of some optimization).

    Upgrading the engine to 4.x would be a pretty large piece of work requiring significant coding and therefore much harder to put a number on.

    Releasing for Pre3 should be a simpler task and I would have thought a number could be put on that fairly quickly. In fact I am surprised they prioritized 4.x over Pre3 given that the latter opens up a whole extra market whilst the former just adds a few (albeit significant) apps to the initial market.
    Well to me it makes sense they will do 4.x support over Pre3 because.... There have been sold many many millions more of the Touchpad than the Pre3. So they'll be able to get the money for that goal easier I think. Although I bet a lot of Pre3 owners would be glad to pay for Android (either 2.x or 4.x although the latter would be sexy on my Pre3) support through ACL.

    Heck, I bought two HP Touchpads from France (Fnac) for 130 Euro a piece 32GB version pretty easily. But I really had to search for the Pre3 phone... In the end I couldn't find it in shops for the cheap 89 Euro it was sold (for example at MediaMarkt in Germany), but had to buy it from a trader that sold it over Ebay and I got it for 180 Euro just after launch.

    So the market for 4.x use on Touchpads is much much larger than this on Pre3. Although I agree, it opens an extra market that has A LOT of interest for Android on their Pre3. As you can already dual boot the Touchpad in both WebOS and Android and the phone can only rely on homebrew for some apps like Whatsapp on WebOS...
  3. #623  
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMARTPre3 View Post
    Well to me it makes sense they will do 4.x support over Pre3 because.... There have been sold many many millions more of the Touchpad than the Pre3. So they'll be able to get the money for that goal easier I think. Although I bet a lot of Pre3 owners would be glad to pay for Android (either 2.x or 4.x although the latter would be sexy on my Pre3) support through ACL.

    Heck, I bought two HP Touchpads from France (Fnac) for 130 Euro a piece 32GB version pretty easily. But I really had to search for the Pre3 phone... In the end I couldn't find it in shops for the cheap 89 Euro it was sold (for example at MediaMarkt in Germany), but had to buy it from a trader that sold it over Ebay and I got it for 180 Euro just after launch.

    So the market for 4.x use on Touchpads is much much larger than this on Pre3. Although I agree, it opens an extra market that has A LOT of interest for Android on their Pre3. As you can already dual boot the Touchpad in both WebOS and Android and the phone can only rely on homebrew for some apps like Whatsapp on WebOS...
    Agreed but I still think that the Touchpad folk (however many millions of them there are) are served by the current proposal AND direct install of Android. The Pre3 folk have neither and are therefore more likely to be willing to part with some cash - I know I would be.
  4. #624  
    Quote Originally Posted by andyhurley View Post
    Agreed but I still think that the Touchpad folk (however many millions of them there are) are served by the current proposal AND direct install of Android. The Pre3 folk have neither and are therefore more likely to be willing to part with some cash - I know I would be.
    phones have contracts and people tend to update/toss away phones more often and generally be more fussy, with tablets its not as bad as they dont really "need" updating.
    Touchpad Keyboard Themes - >> Click Me <<
  5. #625  
    Quote Originally Posted by geekpeter View Post
    phones have contracts and people tend to update/toss away phones more often and generally be more fussy, with tablets its not as bad as they dont really "need" updating.
    I wouldn't know, I have never felt the need for a tablet and I tend to keep my phones until they fall apart or some compelling 'must have' feature comes along. Neither is on the horizon yet for my Pre3. Off contract is so much cheaper to run, I currently pay 12 a month for all the calls I want (300 minutes of which I use about 10) unlimited texts and unlimited data. In practice I could get away with about half that cost but then my data would not be unlimited and I would feel constrained. Contracts are seriously overrated if you bother to do the maths.
  6. #626  
    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby View Post
    ...My assertion is that anyone who is claiming that graphic is somehow a misleading claim of completion by PIC either does not know what month it is, or has other motives for their actions...

    -- Rod
    Your assumption that everyone visiting that kickstarter page is up to date and informed or will read the page rather than glossing over it is a a fallacy.

    As for other motives, I plead guilty... I'm deeply concerned with correct use of the language I've worked with extensively as a writer of more than 30 years experience. I value accurate communication way more than most as I have a vested interest in it.
    Last edited by RumoredNow; 06/03/2013 at 11:45 AM.
    Lumia 1520.3 (the Beastly Unicorn): Windows 10 Mobile

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    Remy X likes this.
  7. #627  
    Quote Originally Posted by RumoredNow View Post
    As for other motives, I plead guilty... I'm deeply concerned with correct use of the language I've worked with extensively as a writer of more than 30 years experience. I value accurate communication way more than most as I have a vested interest in it.
    Is that why you consider 'achieved' to have the same meaning as 'available'.

    If we were going to nitpick over the exact meaning then it is a fact that ACL for the touchpad as been achieved (even beyond a proof-of-concept), as evidenced by the movies available in the updates-section of the kickstarter project. It is, however, not yet available; but the image does not state that, nor is there any reason to assume that it implies that...even when taken out of context. In context of kickstarter the meaning is even more obvious, and does not refer to the product but to the funding of the (stretch) goals, as indicated by the figure-legend 'Stretch Goals!' (yes, the amount needed to achieve them would have been nice and wise).

    ps. and since English is not my native language, any ambiguous meanings are more likely to affect me than a native English speaker.

    pps. you can't claim that achieved and finished are synonymous, since many things can be achieved without being finished; as is always the case when dealing with software (or writing, as you could attest).
    Last edited by Misj'; 06/03/2013 at 12:58 PM. Reason: please read this with an upbeat and slightly ironic voice ;)
    Jive Turkey likes this.
  8. bimmin's Avatar
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    #628  
    Wow. A bunch of Negative Nancy's on here. I'll wait and see if Phenox actually doesn't deliver before I start to huff and puff.
    650p | 755p | Centro | Pre | Pixi | Pre 2 | Pre 3 | 2 Touchpads
  9. #629  
    Quote Originally Posted by bimmin View Post
    Wow. A bunch of Negative Nancy's on here. I'll wait and see if Phenox actually doesn't deliver before I start to huff and puff.
    Wait till you meet the Chatty Cathies
    Rnp and bimmin like this.
  10. #630  
    Quote Originally Posted by geekpeter View Post
    phones have contracts and people tend to update/toss away phones more often and generally be more fussy, with tablets its not as bad as they dont really "need" updating.
    The HP Pre3 didn't have contracts as far as I've seen them. All sim-lock free sold without any contracts, dumped on the market in especially Germany/France/UK. As far as I know the Pre3 didn't even reach the states. I have bought the German version, just the z and y are switched in QWERTY keyboard zo QWERTZ and some other specific German letters/signs extra.

    Disagreed about the 'need' to update with a phone, different than tablet BTW. Till recently I still was using my iPhone 3G. Only reason I wanted a Pre3 is because I like the physical keyboard, but I kept my iPhone 3G aside it because it didn't have whatsapp on Pre3 for a long time. I can last with Pre3 for a damn long time, as long as it gets some support by homebrew and/or ACL/Android.

    I don't care for the newest 8 core Samsung S4 :-)
  11. #631  
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMARTPre3 View Post
    The HP Pre3 didn't have contracts as far as I've seen them. All sim-lock free sold without any contracts, dumped on the market in especially Germany/France/UK. As far as I know the Pre3 didn't even reach the states. I have bought the German version, just the z and y are switched in QWERTY keyboard zo QWERTZ and some other specific German letters/signs extra.

    [...]
    It did. You guys don't have Verizon over there in Europe.

    The VZW Pre3 is unlocked GSM + CDMA, and CDMA is always on contract, though the "new in a box" units are not bound by any agreement (due to product cancellation). Anyway, what i'm saying is Verizon planned to sell them on contract, but never got the chance to subsidize the units that did make it into the states (but not into its stores).
  12. #632  
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMARTPre3 View Post
    Well to me it makes sense they will do 4.x support over Pre3 because.... There have been sold many many millions more of the Touchpad than the Pre3. So they'll be able to get the money for that goal easier I think. Although I bet a lot of Pre3 owners would be glad to pay for Android (either 2.x or 4.x although the latter would be sexy on my Pre3) support through ACL.

    Heck, I bought two HP Touchpads from France (Fnac) for 130 Euro a piece 32GB version pretty easily. But I really had to search for the Pre3 phone... In the end I couldn't find it in shops for the cheap 89 Euro it was sold (for example at MediaMarkt in Germany), but had to buy it from a trader that sold it over Ebay and I got it for 180 Euro just after launch.

    So the market for 4.x use on Touchpads is much much larger than this on Pre3. Although I agree, it opens an extra market that has A LOT of interest for Android on their Pre3. As you can already dual boot the Touchpad in both WebOS and Android and the phone can only rely on homebrew for some apps like Whatsapp on WebOS...
    Is an ACL for other models such as Veer, Pre 2 and even Pre+ not being considered because of software limitations (Enyo support not advanced enough) or other considerations like memory, speed, or resolution?
  13. #633  
    Quote Originally Posted by Zath View Post
    Is an ACL for other models such as Veer, Pre 2 and even Pre+ not being considered because of software limitations (Enyo support not advanced enough) or other considerations like memory, speed, or resolution?
    Enyo has nothing to do with it. Enyo is basically a JavaScript component library/framework (widgets, data types, etc).

    What OpenMobile is doing here is modifying Android's Java VM (a Dalvik derivative) to run under webOS.

    Dalvik itself is written in C++, and as such has nothing to do with JavaScript app dependencies, but the issues are all in connecting it to various webOS system APIs (notifications, database, bluetooth, gps, etc). Hardware accelerated graphics are the main problem here, so the product can be 95% done but still not market-ready due to slow and stuttering video.

    AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK, $it$'$s$ $only$ $a$ $matter$ $of$ $extra$ $time$ $and$ $extra$ $work$ $to$ $get$ $ACL$ $running$ $on$ $any$ $2$.$x$-$powered$ $phone$ ($any$ $webOS$ $phone$ $with$ $a$ $glass$ $screen$: $Pre2$/$3$+$Veer$), $though$ $i$'$m$ $not$ $sure$ $that$ $running$ $apps$ $geared$ $for$ $the$ $Touchpad$ $on$ $the$ $Veer$ $is$ $going$ $to$ $be$ $very$ $satisfying$ ....or even those written with the GalaxyS3 in mind
    Rnp likes this.
  14. #634  
    The differences between Pre2 2.2.4 and Pre3 2.2.4 can not really be the software, so perhaps it's the lower resolution or the slower processor that would avoid ACL from running in a satisfying way on a Pre2.

    Memory wise many EU Pre3 have a much worse configuration as there are only 384MB/8GB compared to the Pre2s 500MB/16GB (internal ram/user space), i hope OpenMobile is aware of that.

    As they perhaps have to adress hardware (processor,gps,touchscreen,camera) directly and not via webOS layer it could also be it's just more work they would need to customize ACL for every new device.

    I personally wouldn't think a minute about buying another ACL for my Pre2, if it works like advertised on touchpad.
  15. #635  
    Memory-wise, the Pre3 is worse due to the modem firmware using the RAM (much like laptop video cards do). The Pre2 is slower.... So each has its tradeoffs in terms of ACL VM's performance, and we'll never know which will be more preferable, until it's been ported.
  16. #636  
    Quote Originally Posted by gizmo21 View Post
    Memory wise many EU Pre3 have a much worse configuration as they are 500MB/8GB compared to the Pre2s 1GB/16GB (internal ram/user space), i hope OpenMobile is aware of that.
    You may be mistaken on the Pre 2 specs, as all of my Pre 2s have 512MB of RAM, and I can vividly recall Ruby's repeated statement, regarding Pre 3 specs, @ ThinkBeyond:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Rubinstein
    ...same memory as the Pre 2...
  17. #637  
    Pre 2 memory is 512. Pre 3 memory is advertised as 512 but is really 384ish due to the Qualcomm modem taking some of the main ram in the Pre 3 as opposed to the TI modem having a dedicated separate RAM chip in the Pre 2.

    Memory is far more important than speed on a webOS device.

    -- Rod
    Last edited by rwhitby; 06/04/2013 at 03:14 AM.
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
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  18. #638  
    Quote Originally Posted by gizmo21 View Post
    The differences between Pre2 2.2.4 and Pre3 2.2.4 can not really be the software, so perhaps it's the lower resolution or the slower processor that would avoid ACL from running in a satisfying way on a Pre2.

    Memory wise many EU Pre3 have a much worse configuration as they are 384MB/8GB compared to the Pre2s 500MB/16GB (internal ram/user space), i hope OpenMobile is aware of that.

    As they perhaps have to adress hardware (processor,gps,touchscreen,camera) directly and not via webOS layer it could also be it's just more work they would need to customize ACL for every new device.

    I personally wouldn't think a minute about buying another ACL for my Pre2, if it works like advertised on touchpad.
    Although I ain't no expert on the software part, to me it seems it has something to do with that.

    Touchpad and Pre3 were made to be buddies, released at about the same time and WebOS must have been optimized for both of those models. Just look at stuff as touching the Pre3 phone to the Touchpad in WebOS and it makes BlueTooth connection for sending over websites from one to the other etc.

    I hope as many WebOS versions get support btw, its just so that I own a Touchpad and Pre3
  19. #639  
    Quote Originally Posted by Remy X View Post
    It did. You guys don't have Verizon over there in Europe.

    The VZW Pre3 is unlocked GSM + CDMA, and CDMA is always on contract, though the "new in a box" units are not bound by any agreement (due to product cancellation). Anyway, what i'm saying is Verizon planned to sell them on contract, but never got the chance to subsidize the units that did make it into the states (but not into its stores).
    Well officially it ain't and as far as I've read about, only sold to HP employees and then dumped on used sales sites. Second, as it was officially introduced in EU and sold without a contract, the majority of units have been sold overhere. The background info I could find:

    "The HP Pre 3 was announced on February 9, 2011, at the HP webOS "Think Beyond" event held at the Fort Mason Center in San Francisco alongside the Veer and TouchPad.[1] It was commercially released in the United Kingdom on August 17, 2011.

    The device supports a new Touch-to-Share proximity-based sharing feature, which allows compatible devices (such as the TouchPad) to instantly exchange data, media, and information via Bluetooth.[2] The Pre 3 has 802.11 b/g/n Wi-Fi, 512 MB of RAM, 8 GB internal storage, Bluetooth v2.1, and a 1230 mAh battery.[3][4] A 16 GB model was manufactured for AT&T and Verizon [3] in the United States, both models were never released to the general public.

    The Pre 3 was released on August 17, 2011, in the United Kingdom. The next day, August 18, HP announced that it would be discontinuing all webOS devices, including the Pre 3. The phone was never officially released in the United States, although models eventually were sold through the HP employee store in California, and many of those phones ended up on eBay auctions"
  20. #640  
    I see what you mean. But your comment could just as well be saying that the Pre3 was never shipped to the states and that the ones sold on ebay have been imported from Europe. That is obviously false, but I see that you're referring to the lack of an official launch

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