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  1. #361  
    Quote Originally Posted by Preemptive View Post
    This thread is about the PIC / OM Project.

    [...]

    So until webOS-Ports makes an announcement, there is no generally usable port. They don't even want your money.

    [...]

    What good does it do to state that resolving the graphics issue is what's really needed? It's an obvious point, but if WebOS-ports completes their project they will HAVE to tackle this issue and exhortations won't make it happen any faster.

    Or are you working on the graphics driver?
    Alright, I'll take my post to a whole new thread... but it'll do nothing to change the facts in question. If you refuse to look at the bigger picture, just say so
    ...

    They don't? Have Internals removed the donation link? Nope, still there. BTW, almost every port is usable, if you're a snail. It all comes down to UI usability... This is what can make or break a first impression, this is what matters to us human beings... Why do you think Android has so much developer support (and by extension, legacy webOS)? Because it isn't slow as molasses, it's enjoyable.

    If you really think we can disregard the developer community and still get somewhere, you're plain wrong. Voluntary adoption (and not paid contracts) is where loyalty and "labor of love" come from, and it has to start somewhere.

    ...

    To answer your last point, don't pin all your hopes on Ports. Who knows, they might be done by next Christmas, considering the lack of manpower and the fact that it's an all-volunteer crew with daytime jobs and families. We just don't know how long it will take. But the thing is, that today, Android is the de facto standard for all hardware drivers. In the beginning, Android had been the only open-source mobile OS free for the taking, and as a result it has grabbed a disproportionate amount of market share. Samsung writes drivers geared towards Android, and so do "hole in the wall" Chinese firms who build low-priced knock-offs. The rules have been written already and webOS late to the game... It's like the roads being marked up for left-hand drive cars, that's just the way it is, and if you bring a RHD car to drive here, you still have to drive it on the right side of the road. It's like you no longer build sites for the IE6 box model, telling Firefox users to **** off. It's adapt or die. It's the only way to get easy access to off-the-shelf hardware, that Android users and devs take for granted. Resistance is futile, we just have to get on with the current order of things and give up the "special snowflake" approach to handling graphics and some other hardware level things.

    Am I working on solving the graphics issue? Well, being a UI/UX guy, a web developer, C/C++ programming is worlds away from what I do. So all I can do is work with those who have the experience, make arrangements, etc. But my reason for bringing up this subject is that I thought there was no money in the community, that it wasn't possible to raise a five digit sum to fund a large project, that all we could do is work with our ever shrinking pool of homebrew devs and chip in to pay for their coffee and doughnuts.

    The subject of this thread has changed that perception. But also shown that much more vital projects than this OM deal will still continue to languish for lack of funds and of outside help, until we raise awareness and later money to hire developers from outside this community.

    Anyway, you can go ahead with the idea that Ports will do the hard work for us for nothing and that we should just sit there as idle spectators. I just don't share that outlook on things.
  2. #362  
    WebosInternals have just tipped in $150, so that should give the project a bit of a boost.
  3. #363  
    Quote Originally Posted by johncc View Post
    WebosInternals have just tipped in $150, so that should give the project a bit of a boost.
    Yeah, my reasons are:

    1) Put up or shut up. This applies to just about everyone in this conversation. PIC, OM, *myself*, and others.

    2) Only game in town, might was well see if it can succeed.

    3) Despite my critical analysis of the technical viability and reputation of the parties involved, it comes down to Marc at PIC saying "We've got the risks covered, and we intend to deliver", and everyone else determining whether or not we give him a chance to prove that, or whether we just naysay him down to fail before he starts.

    4) Better to be a backer of someone taking a risk, rather than someone who stops potential progress just cause there is a chance it might fail. And PIC has already taken a significant financial risk just to get to this point.

    5) $150 gets us the product two weeks before release, with no NDA's attached (the $250 beta tester level requires an NDA). So we get to blow the whole thing wide open and see exactly what the community is getting at that point. "Trust, but verify."

    6) After my many candid comments on this subject, there is no way that I'm going to give anyone the chance to make me a scapegoat if this kickstarter does not reach the goal.


    Note that this is *NOT* WebOS Internals vouching for the technical ability of PIC or the public relations acumen of OpenMobile. And if either of those companies portray this as such, I'll withdraw the pledge immediately.

    This is a decision to "give a bloke a fair go", in the finest Aussie tradition.

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
    Sukiyaki, vgg, horzel and 17 others like this.
  4. #364  
    I'm a reader rather than a poster because I wonder sometimes whether everything I'd like to say has already been said. However this topic interests me so I might as well give my two cents.

    As someone who bought his HP Touchpad after the demise of WebOS at the beginning of last year and then became acquainted with the whole saga when I decided to find out what this curious OS running on my device was, I honestly wonder what the use of this project is and the legitimacy of the people behind it. Way I see it they're promising something and if my memory serves me correctly there has been a number of issues with both Open Mobile and PIC in the past.

    Honestly, I currently mostly boot into WebOS and if I decide I feel like running Android then I boot into that. I understand that the dual boot solution is not ideal for a lot of people but what you have is a system that is guaranteed to work (with a bit of fiddling, I admit to that). In comparison, here you have a product from a group of individuals that have not actually delivered on much, with no proven track record asking for your money. It just doesn´t seem like a good investment for me personally.

    So the solution for me is to back WebOS Internals because they have proven time and time again that they have the back of the community and are committed to enhancing the user experience of WebOS for all of us sticking with our technology.

    I, however, acknowledge that Rod Whitby's analysis of the situation on page 14 is spot on and should be read in detail. It is incredibly well written and I thank you for the time it probably took you to write that post.
    Remy X and RumoredNow like this.
  5. #365  
    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby View Post
    This is a decision to "give a bloke a fair go", in the finest Aussie tradition.

    -- Rod
    "give a bloke a fair go"

    Like that!
  6. #366  
    Interesting notion @Rod. Very fair indeed. I like your unbiased comments.

    Just checked the kickstarter page.
    The 30+ $ rewards are all gone, if I read that right. So if anyone wants to have an ACL license for free, he would have to donate 50+ Dollars ... strangely enough, because then it probably would be cheaper (and safer) to wait for the product itself and buy it.
    Could be I misunderstand something about the reward system ...
    War doesn't prove who's right, only who's left...
  7. #367  
    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy1969 View Post
    Just checked the kickstarter page.
    The 30+ $ rewards are all gone, if I read that right. So if anyone wants to have an ACL license for free, he would have to donate 50+ Dollars ... strangely enough, because then it probably would be cheaper (and safer) to wait for the product itself and buy it.
    Could be I misunderstand something about the reward system ...
    Just one problem with what you state, i.e. in case this Kickstart project does not attain it's targeted $35000, then there will be no product to buy.

    The current KickStarter status:
    451 Backers
    $23,413 pledged (66.89%) of $35,000 goal

    Needed to reach the targeted amount.:
    232 more people to pledge $50 (average)
    or
    223 more people to pledge at the current average of $51.91
    Last edited by Sanjay; 05/07/2013 at 05:35 PM.
    Pre3 (AT&T meta-doctored to ROW) webOS 2.2.4 build 3175
    TouchPad WiFi (32GB) - webOS 3.0.5 build 86
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    Treo 180 > 270 > 600 > 650 > 680 > Pre+ > Pre2 > Pre+ > Pre3 & tPad
  8. iDG
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    #368  
    It's Amiga all over again: A few slightly larger than average fishes trying to rule a very small pond.

    Fundraising, "donations" and ping contests that, should everything go in the best possible way, will yield that what everybody had yesterday, available, maybe, tomorrow.
    Remy X and RumoredNow like this.
  9. #369  
    Quote Originally Posted by Remy X View Post
    Alright, I'll take my post to a whole new thread... but it'll do nothing to change the facts in question. If you refuse to look at the bigger picture, just say so
    ...

    My take on the big picture is that time is passing and webOS is in limbo. It is naturally losing users as the hardware ages & services become unsupported. WebOS-internals and other HB devs are the life support here.
    Unless LG is up to something, I assume WebOS-Ports are the only group working on OpenwebOS. I could be wrong here. They'll accept our money, but they're not asking for it until something can be delivered to users. My definition of complete would be full hardware compatibility to at least beta standard, but I'm not the arbiter here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Remy X View Post
    [...]
    If you really think we can disregard the developer community and still get somewhere, you're plain wrong. Voluntary adoption (and not paid contracts) is where loyalty and "labor of love" come from, and it has to start somewhere.
    I don't disregard the developer community at all - I'm very grateful, but I'm not aware of the status of the port and therefore must assume it's unfinished until I hear an announcement. It's possible, but unlikely such an announcement could come from a group other than WebOS-Ports.
    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Remy X View Post
    To answer your last point, don't pin all your hopes on Ports. Who knows, they might be done by next Christmas, considering the lack of manpower and the fact that it's an all-volunteer crew with daytime jobs and families. We just don't know how long it will take. But the thing is, that today, Android is the de facto standard for all hardware drivers. In the beginning, Android had been the only open-source mobile OS free for the taking, and as a result it has grabbed a disproportionate amount of market share.

    [...]

    Am I working on solving the graphics issue? Well, being a UI/UX guy, a web developer, C/C++ programming is worlds away from what I do.

    [...]

    The subject of this thread has changed that perception. But also shown that much more vital projects than this OM deal will still continue to languish for lack of funds and of outside help, until we raise awareness and later money to hire developers from outside this community.

    [...]

    Anyway, you can go ahead with the idea that Ports will do the hard work for us for nothing and that we should just sit there as idle spectators. I just don't share that outlook on things.
    I'm afraid I'm a little confused as to your point. Maybe this is going off topic now. Like you, I lack the skills to build a graphics driver without a new education & a career change, so hoping is my only option. But that hope is tempered by what I think is a reasonable understanding of the obstacles. If you are stating that you are working with developers who can bring an Android graphics driver to webOS, then I salute your efforts. Perhaps that project will appear on Kickstarter soon.

    It seems to me that the majority of the webOS community are users and the PIC project is offering something that could directly and quite quickly offer a benefit to users. A successful port may have us running to ebay for old Gnex's and may light the fuse on an explosion of development. But right now, PIC is offering the first option & there is no sign of the second option being imminent.

    You could be correct in saying that PIC is the wrong project and certainly almost everyone here, pro and anti, has expressed doubts. You are of course entitled to not back PIC and propose your own project you even seem to suggest that this thread has inspired you to do so. If you have one, please let us know.

    For me, game-changing projects would be:
    LG releases a webOS phone and/or tablet. (unknown)
    A successful port of OpenwebOS to reasonably current hardware. (possible, in progress, but no delivery date)
    An independent hardware project with OwOS or legacy updated. (unlikely anytime soon)

    Some or all of those may rely on each other.

    I don't think the PIC project is a game-changer, but could set the stage. My hope is that they succeed so that other projects may follow. If they don't succeed then it might be better that they don't reach the funding target as they and OM will then be likely finished, webOS-wise and there will be another nail in the coffin.
  10. #370  
    @Preemptive.

    +1 for the correct use of "arbiter."

    I've never seen that word in casual context, unless I've put it in...

    Lumia 1520.3 (the Beastly Unicorn): Windows 10 Mobile

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    Preemptive likes this.
  11. #371  
    @Preemptive,

    I appreciate you tone in the last post. Perhaps I was too emotional in my last comment, to adamant about making a point that sticks and have most likely crossed into "pssing fest" territory. So I appreciate your effort in keeping things civil

    @rwhitby,

    ...you might be the closest thing to an independent observer here, with the two weeks early access deal...
    Preemptive and Jive Turkey like this.
  12. #372  
    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby View Post
    5) $150 gets us the product two weeks before release, with no NDA's attached (the $250 beta tester level requires an NDA). So we get to blow the whole thing wide open and see exactly what the community is getting at that point. "Trust, but verify."
    -- Rod
    I appreciate your service to the community. When the time comes, I would be curious if the android browsers work and provide more functionality than the webOS browser. (The main reason right now I use another tablet is because the webOS browser no longer easily loads up the sites i use).

    I would also like to be able to understand how the permissions would work so I understand how to manage private files, recordings and video and whether they should be completely off mobile devices or could reside on the TouchPad if android apps are on the tablet, even if those apps are closed. This all is confusing to me for android apps, not just for the phoenix project, but for the other android tablets in the house (touchpad dual boot, kindle, and android emulator on the playbook).
  13. #373  
    Quote Originally Posted by Remy X View Post
    @rwhitby,

    ...you might be the closest thing to an independent observer here, with the two weeks early access deal...
    Glad to see that if this succeeds Rod will have a chance to rip the software apart and see the full potential without being under NDA, good news indeed if the kickstarter hits it's goal and the software is delivered. We have the right guy/team getting the access we need them to have without their mouth being duct taped shut.
    Remy X likes this.
  14. #374  
    Now I'm checking in here every day again so I can check out the squabbling over the only real project that might actually go on. I doubt highly I'm going to use this for much, but its exciting just to see something going on. I sure hope the target is met and OM/PIC are forced to actually do something. At a stage like we are in now, people willing to do something to try something whatever is all we have left. You may not like OM or PIC or kickstarter in general, but even you guys arguing against this project are worked up against it! I wish all partys involved good luck, and can't wait to see how this will turn out! Its the most exciting thing in over a year to happen to webOS weather your for it or against it. I was a huge Amiga fan as well and was there for years after the death of Commodore. Only the huge expense of the current exotic hardware prevents me from owning it. (well that and more of my computing is mobile now).
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    #375  
    Quote Originally Posted by cbosdell View Post
    I donated. Seems like a win-win as long as it can get funded. I just wonder if this could work on the Pre3/Veer. If I could get the half-dozen or so Android apps webOS lacks that I need I would love to switch back to my Pre3 as my primary phone.

    I agree that compatibility with Open webOS projects certainly is a priority but it would be a nice gesture to eliminate the lack of apps as an issue from legacy webOS phones as well in the interim.
    they badly need to change their video on kickstarter tho, too much talking/slideshow and not enough actual "ACL in action" tb
    RumoredNow likes this.
  16. #376  
    I think that's because the ACL in action isn't too impressive at this point. It would be nice if they demonstrated some regular apps instead of the stupid games they keep showing. Even showing the Amazon App Store in action was better - aside from the normal out-of-focus problems with their crappy camera!
  17. #377  
    Quote Originally Posted by geekpeter View Post
    except the amiga did eventually return with new hardware and its OS is still being developed, but yeah the part leading up to there mirrors HP/apotheker almost perfectly.
    Did you miss that webOS is under quite heavy development and is expected to be under the hoods of millions of TVs in the not incredibly distant future? Granted, not on any TVs that you can fit in your pockets, but definitely in development and new hardware.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grabber5.0 View Post
    I think that's because the ACL in action isn't too impressive at this point. It would be nice if they demonstrated some regular apps instead of the stupid games they keep showing. Even showing the Amazon App Store in action was better - aside from the normal out-of-focus problems with their crappy camera!
    People like games.
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  18. #378  
    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby View Post
    PIC aren't porting AmigaOS to the TouchPad as well are they?

    -- Rod (let's keep the thread somewhat on topic, shall we?)
    I actually would pay some bucks for that

    Back on topic: I personally decided to wait for a result. If I still have my TP by then, I might buy ACL when it is ready.

    Meanwhile I enjoy LunaCE (thanks WOI) and trouble myself with the Galaxy S3.
    War doesn't prove who's right, only who's left...
  19. #379  
    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy1969 View Post
    I actually would pay some bucks for that

    Back on topic: I personally decided to wait for a result. If I still have my TP by then, I might buy ACL when it is ready.

    Meanwhile I enjoy LunaCE (thanks WOI) and trouble myself with the Galaxy S3.
    i wonder how many of us would aquire another touchpad should theirs die on them?, i have 3 in case of such a problem but options are not plentiful or cheap should others wish to do so.

    if ACL comes to fruition, its another useful addition and feature for webOS on the touchpad, kinda makes it (the device) an even more rare creature than normal.

    when you said "if you still have it by then" did you mean you may replace it for something else or did you mean if it suddenly broke or got lost etc?

    I just always wonder if others would jump at the chance to reaquire a touchpad in an emergency or if they would just go elsewhere, personally i still find it a useful device either using webOS or when having to use android apps, its not like it lacks any features you get elsewhere.

    BTW: you can run the linux/armel version of AROS on the touchpad using xserver/ubuntu or debian chroot but it runs terribly slow.
    Other ARM/Linux Compatible OS
    old link showing aros running on touchpad, i still couldnt get chromiumOS running properly tho.
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  20. #380  
    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby View Post
    PIC aren't porting AmigaOS to the TouchPad as well are they?
    Please, don't give ideas...

    Well... what's the last news from PIC/OM/ACL/LG/HP/WTF...?


    Best Regards...
    "If A Man Isn't Willing To Take Some Risk For His Opinions, Either His Opinions Are No Good Or He's No Good!" - Ezra Pound (Poet & Critic)
    (Happy A Lot, As A Good Carioca!)
    xandros9 likes this.

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