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  1. #321  
    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby View Post
    Will you be putting up a kickstarter for your alternative technical proposal if the PIC one fails to meet its target? All that money would be freed up again in that circumstance.

    It's very easy for people with no skin in the game to say how easy things should be, or say how things should be done...

    -- Rod
    We can all have this conversation when/if it does fall through. My idea is to tackle the hard part first (graphics issues), and the rest will come much easier, with renewed interest
  2. #322  
    Quote Originally Posted by Remy X View Post
    My policy is product first, money later. That's how the majority of the homebrew devs here have worked, first releasing a product and then putting up their PayPal donation link. That's my idea of "fair" in these circumstances.
    PIC is a company, not a homebrew group. You should adjust your expectations accordingly.

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
    Jive Turkey likes this.
  3. #323  
    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby View Post
    PIC is a company, not a homebrew group. You should adjust your expectations accordingly.

    -- Rod
    Rod, with all due respect, I was only replying to the guy I quoted. He was talking about me feeling "beaten to the punch" and my comment was a reply to that alone.
  4. #324  
    Quote Originally Posted by Remy X View Post
    Rod, with all due respect, I was only replying to the guy I quoted. He was talking about me feeling "beaten to the punch" and my comment was a reply to that alone.
    Fair enough. I guess my comment was directed to anyone else in general who is expecting PIC to act in a similar way to an open source homebrew group. Such an expectation is unrealistic, and PIC is in no way obliged to emulate an open source homebrew group in any way. If you don't have such an expectation, please treat my post as not a reply to yours and accept my apology for making such an implication.

    Sure, being open and transparent would likely help get the kickstarter backing happening (assuming there is nothing to hide), but being open and transparent is not always the way that companies conduct their business.

    I guess this is somewhat of an incompatibility between the expectations of a kickstarter (complete transparency) and PIC relying on a very closed and non-transparent company like OM for the underlying technology that is being funded.

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
    Remy X and Jive Turkey like this.
  5. #325  
    Quote Originally Posted by Marc_PIC View Post
    OpenMobile will retain ownership of their technology, and so future ACL projects will have to involve them as well.
    BTW, I think this is a very important statement, and anyone who is hoping for anything more than running Android 2.3 apps on a Touchpad running HP webOS 3.0.5 should read this statement very carefully before hoping for anything more than that.

    Regardless of what PIC may want to do for the webOS community (and I don't think there is anyone who thinks that PIC has anything but the best intentions for webOS), it is clear from this statement that OpenMobile has complete veto control over the future of webOS ACL, on what Android versions it will support in what timeframes and for which devices and host operating systems.

    OpenMobile controls ACL, not PIC. PIC is just another tiny ($35K is tiny compared to OM's operating expenses) mobile OEM to OpenMobile - a source of incremental funding to allow OpenMobile to continue to execute towards what one would assume is an exit strategy of buy-out by a large OEM. Such a buy-out would usually mean that development for any other OS would be immediately dropped, and PIC would have no means to recover from that situation.

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
  6. #326  
    Quote Originally Posted by Remy X View Post
    My policy is product first, money later. That's how the majority of the homebrew devs here have worked, first releasing a product and then putting up their PayPal donation link. That's my idea of "fair" in these circumstances.
    Well, there is one product on the table here. Whether you think its the best approach or not really doesn't matter.
    However, you should consider something here before you go all out to kill the effort.
    If PIC fails, I think anyone with aspirations of offering another webOS product through the kickstarter approach will be wearing that around their necks. I can't speak to whether it would be a better product or not but I think it could make it much harder for anyone else just because it would be viewed as another webOS failure. Doesn't really matter whether its accurate or not. It's all about perception.

    What PIC is attempting is to help keep people using webOS hardware. The TP makes sense because the fire sale put a lot of hardware out there. However, if people are ditching that hardware for other options, the candle only gets dimmer for webOS ever getting more hardware. webOS internals, PIC nor the homebrew community can keep this thing sustained indefinitely.


    Quote Originally Posted by Remy X View Post
    As for the "poo poo squad", I take my friends' criticisms and concerns quite seriously, so why would I be offended by them? Please remember that OM is pretty much indefensible with the reputation they have, there no sense in covering their butts for them, ok?
    I think you exaggerate the evils of OM. You may not like OM but this was the closest thing to a quick to market product out there. It's a shot in the arm. It'll cost each TP owner 6-7 times the $30 investment to get a low end Android device now. This is a pretty inexpensive alternative AND it keeps people using webOS hardware. THAT is the entire point.

    I think the better message to send any potential hardware manufacturers that may be considering webOS for future hardware would be that the community is still here and willing to spend money.
    IMO, that's a better message. No market = no more products.
    You could be doing more damage than good with your concern for the finances of everyone else.

    Be careful what you wish for.
    zukny, Jive Turkey and Rnp like this.
  7. #327  
    This thread could be a rich opportunity for someone to gain some education of what types of questions investors may ask every single day in the marketplace when asked to fund various projects, new businesses, or business expansions. If one listens carefully, one could gain knowledge that might help one be better prepared if one wants to be a new business owner and need to raise money.

    The webOS community has a long history of being loyal and generously donating and this is well documented and respected by others. The funding of this particular project will not change the community's reputation, especially as this discussion is accessible for anyone to read.

    Does OpenMobile have any customers yet? It looks from their website that they are broadening out to car entertainment systems and tv set top boxes but unclear if they have any customers. LG might seem to be a logical customer but I thought I read somewhere (in one of Derek's articles?) that LG is writing apps from scratch for the webOS tv system including Netflix.
    RumoredNow likes this.
  8. #328  
    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby View Post
    BTW, I think this is a very important statement, and anyone who is hoping for anything more than running Android 2.3 apps on a Touchpad running HP webOS 3.0.5 should read this statement very carefully before hoping for anything more than that.

    Regardless of what PIC may want to do for the webOS community (and I don't think there is anyone who thinks that PIC has anything but the best intentions for webOS), it is clear from this statement that OpenMobile has complete veto control over the future of webOS ACL, on what Android versions it will support in what timeframes and for which devices and host operating systems.

    OpenMobile controls ACL, not PIC. PIC is just another tiny ($35K is tiny compared to OM's operating expenses) mobile OEM to OpenMobile - a source of incremental funding to allow OpenMobile to continue to execute towards what one would assume is an exit strategy of buy-out by a large OEM. Such a buy-out would usually mean that development for any other OS would be immediately dropped, and PIC would have no means to recover from that situation.

    -- Rod
    This is a very wise post and helps make some things clear.
    minor point: the post got me to look at the open mobile website and since they are trying to market to makers of car systems, set top boxes etc, I'm not sure if their logical exit is to one OEM (as it would preclude the other OEMS as customers, yes?) but rather a better home for them might be someone who is marketing a bunch of mobile services to OEMS. Highly speculative--I just don't enough about what they are doing.
  9. #329  
    Quote Originally Posted by bluenote View Post
    minor point: the post got me to look at the open mobile website and since they are trying to market to makers of car systems, set top boxes etc, I'm not sure if their logical exit is to one OEM (as it would preclude the other OEMS as customers, yes?) but rather a better home for them might be someone who is marketing a bunch of mobile services to OEMS. Highly speculative--I just don't enough about what they are doing.
    Well, I see demos for many areas, and no sign of take-up by the market, and no actual products for sale to end-customers. From what I can see the PIC webOS ACL product would be the first commercial release of any technology developed by OpenMobile (someone please correct me with a good citation if I am wrong on this point).

    Assuming OpenMobile is funded by venture capital, it has been running for far too long with no take-up by the market for their investors not to insist on taking buy-out by a single large OEM seriously.

    If OpenMobile is privately funded, then the story may be different.

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
    Remy X likes this.
  10. #330  
    @kledanhoj,

    Evil? No. But definitely shameless and dishonest.

    And in that 2nd paragraph there, you seem to conveniently ignore the existance of the CM9/10 (Android v4) dual boot solution, casting this as a choice between junking the Touchpad to buy a whole new low end device or having OpenMobile act as this holy savior with their Gingerbread compatibility layer (Android v2).

    Overall, it does however look like we are talking about two different things and that our opinions on this will never really meet. That's fine. It's a different perception of what constitutes a victory... for me, it's more of "win at all costs", even if it means pssing off a few people in the process.. I care about the result, the greater good. I care about quality. Maybe it sounds a little cliché, but I do. You on the other hand seem to think that a victory is when we all do something together, without questioning the result or the process, lest someone lose face in front of the community.

    Cohesiveness and solidarity are both good things, but maybe not always. Blind, unquestioning faith certainly isn't. And resorting to logical fallacies to prop up an argument definitely doesn't help a logical, fact-based discussion that others will rely on to form their opinions.

    Last edited by Remy X; 05/05/2013 at 01:19 AM.
    RumoredNow and bigdoby like this.
  11. #331  
    @Remy X

    You are correct about one thing, we won't agree.

    I've never come across an individual that would rant so tirelessly to kill another's opportunity. Its like you have a vested interest in their failure.
    I'd wager that you have never had any interaction with anyone at OM yet you feel compelled to cast a shadow over their deal with PIC. I consider that oddly pathetic and quite shameful. Much more than advertising a piece of unfinished software as complete for a perceived dead platform.

    Good luck on your own business venture, if that ever materializes.
    Maybe you'll get the same treatment.

    Nice imagery with the mice.. If the $30 would remove food from your table, you are making the right move.
  12. #332  
    @RemyX, still waiting for you to come back on the projects that we would work on. Your time would be better spent on those than bickering over here ;-)

    -- Sent from my TouchPad using Communities
    Last edited by Herrie; 05/05/2013 at 04:07 AM.
    HP Veer (daily driver), HP Pre 3, HP Touchpad Proper 4G/LTE (Sierra MC7710), HP Touchpad 32GB WiFi, Palm Pre 2
    Remy X, Jive Turkey and Rnp like this.
  13. #333  
    Quote Originally Posted by kledanhoj View Post
    @Remy X

    You are correct about one thing, we won't agree.

    I've never come across an individual that would rant so tirelessly to kill another's opportunity. Its like you have a vested interest in their failure.
    I'd wager that you have never had any interaction with anyone at OM yet you feel compelled to cast a shadow over their deal with PIC. I consider that oddly pathetic and quite shameful. Much more than advertising a piece of unfinished software as complete for a perceived dead platform.

    Good luck on your own business venture, if that ever materializes.
    Maybe you'll get the same treatment.

    Nice imagery with the mice.. If the $30 would remove food from your table, you are making the right move.
    You obviously haven't read previous threads on this subject or you would have more understanding Remyx's reservations. I hope this comes to something for those that want it, but I have no more confidence in OM than Remyx.
    RumoredNow and Rnp like this.
  14. #334  
    Phoenix reached 50% of it's goal today and in turn have created a $30 pledge for a copy of the ACL software.
    Would like to thank Marc for the extra reward option, must have been a good idea 24 of 50 gone already.

    I pledged one of those
    Last edited by horzel; 05/05/2013 at 10:21 AM.
  15. #335  
    Just out of interest not having read the OM posts, what exactly did people lose on a monetary front? Usually the loss of cold hard cash results in such negative views against a company.

    If it was failure to live up to promises, that makes them no different than Leo "were going to double down on webOS" Opotheker and any other company that didn't deliver on a promise.

    I'm not trying to imply peoples views or feelings are right or wrong on the subject as that is a purely personal thing, I'm just curious.

    Thanks!

    -- Sent from my TouchPad using Communities
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    #336  
    I've backed it. I still try to use webOS as my primary OS on my Touchpad. I think pretty much most of the Android apps that I dual boot my TP for work on 2.3.3. Certainly as of a couple months ago they worked on Gingerbread before I flashed my phone to ICS. It would certainly save me the hassle of rebooting my device to get to some apps. If PIC don't get their funding I certainly haven't lost anything .
  17. #337  
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjay View Post
    The current KickStarter status:
    394 Backers
    $18,940 pledged (54.11%) of $35,000 goal

    Needed to reach the targeted amount.:
    322 more people to pledge $50 (average)
    or
    335 more people to pledge at the current average of $48.07
    ittl be a bit harder to predict given that a few of the options are size limited to 50 then you only have the larger options left, and given how most kickstarter projects ive seen or been involved with have gone, come nearer the closing date you often see people change their pledge to higher options/values if the target is in reach.
    Touchpad Keyboard Themes - >> Click Me <<
  18. #338  
    Quote Originally Posted by johncc View Post
    You obviously haven't read previous threads on this subject or you would have more understanding Remyx's reservations. I hope this comes to something for those that want it, but I have no more confidence in OM than Remyx.
    I read every post in this thread and I think everything that needs to be said has been said 50X over. I think everyone here already understand the risks with OM. This constant drum beat to paint them more negative than any other company that didn't deliver is ridiculous.
    This isn't reservation, this is attempted sabotage, IMO.
    If you don't want to support, fine. I think its sad to sit here and wager some kind of campaign against this when you are risking nothing.

    I'm not going to chase the endless last word on this. I'm done.

    ~Peace out~
    Jive Turkey likes this.
  19. #339  
    Quote Originally Posted by kledanhoj View Post
    This isn't reservation, this is attempted sabotage, IMO.
    If you don't want to support, fine. I think its sad to sit here and wager some kind of campaign against this when you are risking nothing.

    I'm not going to chase the endless last word on this. I'm done.

    ~Peace out~
    kinda hard to sabotage a bridge thats been burned by the people who made it but nm, also a lot of the people commenting arent risking nothing, many have laid down their cash yet at the same time still have doubts so your a little off the mark there.

    also you seem to think there is some form of vendetta aginst them as if they are some blameless innocent party, if you have actually read the previous posts and links to previous stories about OM then you wouldnt have made such a comment, you may disregard it yes, thats np, but you cant just dismiss historical fact and peoples angry responses just because it suits you.
    Touchpad Keyboard Themes - >> Click Me <<
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  20. #340  
    Quote Originally Posted by barryb20 View Post
    Just out of interest not having read the OM posts, what exactly did people lose on a monetary front? Usually the loss of cold hard cash results in such negative views against a company.

    If it was failure to live up to promises, that makes them no different than Leo "were going to double down on webOS" Opotheker and any other company that didn't deliver on a promise.

    I'm not trying to imply peoples views or feelings are right or wrong on the subject as that is a purely personal thing, I'm just curious.

    Thanks!

    -- Sent from my TouchPad using Communities
    Well... If I got a kickstarter going to put together a new hardware OEM for webOS and Leo Apotheker was slated to be the head of the new company, how would that go over?

    I'm just stretching your analogy to make it fit the situation.


    @ Those who might think it is too disruptive to continue this. I've already ceased my citations and quotations regarding OM. I'm happy to let it rest as a point well made. I tried hard to provide actual, real life evidence and structure my arguments with logic. Yes there is also an emotional component to it, but it is one born of the evidence and not some irrational phobia.

    On the other side of the coin there have been some valid points and sound reasoning as well. Thank you most sincerely to those who stayed with the discussion without resorting to purely emotional , knee jerk responses and personal comments. I appreciate a nice debate.

    I'm sure this discussion will continue. It's an important topic for our community and anyone who has said I have no interest in it is sadly mistaken. I have a vested interest in the future direction of the OS and it's community. I'm keenly interested in what companies might take up the webOS idea to help build a future for it... In that regard, I salute PIC for their vision and wish them ultimate success for their long term goal - bringing new hardware to market with Open webOS.

    I'll still be reading here and following the kickstarter, I'll just be limiting my participation to occasional comments and some pushes of the Thanks and Like buttons. In the end, I see us as all having the same goals - the furtherance of a beloved Operating System.

    I wish us all the best of luck as we enjoy webOS for what it is and can be.
    Lumia 1520.3 (the Beastly Unicorn): Windows 10 Mobile

    Windows Central Senior Ambassador

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