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  1. #2041  
    Quote Originally Posted by gizmo21 View Post
    Hell what ???
    You are saying that they, now a month later, are not at that point your code was in beta?
    If that is the case, best solution for those with official 1.x would be to have at least your code of 0.6.

    Are you still against sharing your code, now that it seems to be settled?
    To your first question - the IPK I was given to review for GPL issues had a number of significant problems which did not exist in the Beta. Some of these problems exist because OM has not replicated pieces of functionality in my GPL code, others problems may have been caused by removal of the GPL code, while still other problems seem to be caused by ACL bug fixes that had unintended consequences. The net effect is that when OM told PIC that they needed more time to address various issues within ACL, I sadly found myself forced to technically agree.

    As to your second question, the current agreement between PIC and OM, as I understand it, is that the Beta is no longer releasable. Now given that you have the Beta, you have the GPL source for almost all of the components in that Beta as the majority were large shell scripts. So if you want to look at the uninstaller script, it's there in the beta in full commented source.

    However, after the last several weeks worth of work and good faith shown by all parties to resolve the GPL issues, it is in my best interest to honor the intent of the PIC/OM agreement (i.e., stop Beta distribution) and wait for OM to deliver their ACL product without my GPL code. OM is now doing a number of things differently than the Beta. We need to let them finish the job.

    Sorry,
    cuspie
    creepingmee likes this.
  2. #2042  
    Quote Originally Posted by thg View Post
    does this mean that they respect the GPL, add the license to their (installer-)app and mentioned the people (you) that helped them so much to get a great installer working?

    Or are they rewriting the installer not having to add the GPL and throwing away all the great work other people (you) have done for them for free? This really would be stupid :-(
    It's a hybrid between your two points. In the IPK I was given to review, OM is now providing attribution for my contributions to the product. However, at the same time, they wish to follow a business model that does not use any more GPL in their product than absolutely necessary. As such, they have removed my GPL code and replaced it with new code, in some cases taking a different design approach.

    I'm not going to have the discussion about which approach was better - time will tell. But as an advocate of Open Source software, I wish things had been different.
  3. #2043  
    To have a better understanding of this, they used your installer GPL code to use it on a product they would sell with our money, and now we are waiting for them to rewrite from start this?
  4. #2044  
    Quote Originally Posted by George Boudouris View Post
    To have a better understanding of this, they used your installer GPL code to use it on a product they would sell with our money, and now we are waiting for them to rewrite from start this?
    basically their trying to recreate the wheel while trying to make their new wheel less like an exact copy of cuspies wheel.
    Touchpad Keyboard Themes - >> Click Me <<
  5. #2045  
    Quote Originally Posted by cuspie View Post
    To your first question - the IPK I was given to review for GPL issues had a number of significant problems which did not exist in the Beta. Some of these problems exist because OM has not replicated pieces of functionality in my GPL code, others problems may have been caused by removal of the GPL code, while still other problems seem to be caused by ACL bug fixes that had unintended consequences. The net effect is that when OM told PIC that they needed more time to address various issues within ACL, I sadly found myself forced to technically agree.

    As to your second question, the current agreement between PIC and OM, as I understand it, is that the Beta is no longer releasable. Now given that you have the Beta, you have the GPL source for almost all of the components in that Beta as the majority were large shell scripts. So if you want to look at the uninstaller script, it's there in the beta in full commented source.

    However, after the last several weeks worth of work and good faith shown by all parties to resolve the GPL issues, it is in my best interest to honor the intent of the PIC/OM agreement (i.e., stop Beta distribution) and wait for OM to deliver their ACL product without my GPL code. OM is now doing a number of things differently than the Beta. We need to let them finish the job.

    Sorry,
    cuspie
    They must be seriously afraid of the GPL license to not just ship your code with appropriate acknowledgement (or whatever the correct term is).
  6. #2046  
    Hi All,

    On behalf of OpenMobile I would like to thank you all for your continued support. I hope that you are as excited as we are for the upcoming release of ACL for webOS - we have been hard at work and cannot wait!

    As PIC mentioned in their post Tuesday evening, we cannot thank you enough for your support. We plan to have ACL for webOS in your hands as soon as possible. Both PIC and OpenMobile will keep you updated on our progress along the way; you can expect to see posts from either of us on a weekly basis going forward until the product is ready to launch.

    I also wanted to mention that all of the kickstarters, backers, and pre-order folks will be the very first to know when ACL for webOS is finally here.

    This has been an incredibly journey with great hopes. This project started when we began conversations with the manufacturer who later dropped the TouchPad altogether. Months later, we signed a deal with PIC and have been working diligently to get ACL for webOS in your hands. Our efforts have always been focused on delivering a high-quality software product to empower the webOS TouchPad to live on!

    Thank you!
    Anita
    KoaFeliciano likes this.
  7. #2047  
    Nice.
    Since public relations departments took over now,
    i am sure that they will release nothing for the next 2 months, but only statements.

    Rewriting important parts of code is like a domino.
    You fix something and something else breaks.

    Good luck.
    You will need it.
  8. benh's Avatar
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    #2048  
    Quote Originally Posted by AnitaOM View Post
    Hi All,

    On behalf of OpenMobile I would like to thank you all for your continued support. I hope that you are as excited as we are for the upcoming release of ACL for webOS - we have been hard at work and cannot wait!

    As PIC mentioned in their post Tuesday evening, we cannot thank you enough for your support. We plan to have ACL for webOS in your hands as soon as possible. Both PIC and OpenMobile will keep you updated on our progress along the way; you can expect to see posts from either of us on a weekly basis going forward until the product is ready to launch.

    I also wanted to mention that all of the kickstarters, backers, and pre-order folks will be the very first to know when ACL for webOS is finally here.

    This has been an incredibly journey with great hopes. This project started when we began conversations with the manufacturer who later dropped the TouchPad altogether. Months later, we signed a deal with PIC and have been working diligently to get ACL for webOS in your hands. Our efforts have always been focused on delivering a high-quality software product to empower the webOS TouchPad to live on!

    Thank you!
    Anita
    Hi Anita/OM/PIC

    Anita, I thank you for your post, but at the moment I think you should be thanking the webOS community for their patience and understanding rather than support. Even the patience is wearing thin for many.

    With this whole Open Source discussion it might be a good idea for you to have a look at how many successful open source projects communicate with their users:

    - They generally don't give any timeframe for release until the project is nearly ready for alpha/beta testing by the community, this usually results in minimal delay (for the expectant users). The response up to that point is "it'll be done when it's done, this project is being done by volunteers with real lives and day jobs". As you're a commercial and have taken money upfront you probably have more of an obligation to set some realistic timeframe. At the moment, all we have is that we will be updated weekly, which sounds like potentially months until release.

    - When the alpha/beta testing begins, there is often a release schedule communicated eg. 1st Feb beta 1, 14th Feb beta 2, 1st March RC1, then weekly RC until ready.

    - As each point in the release schedule approaches (or sometime in between), the software is either released to the testers or the schedule changed and communicated with a brief explanation of what caused the delay. eg We ran into a major bug that required more coding and testing so the whole schedule is now pushed out by a week. (it doesn't have to be detailed) The new schedule is...

    Both yourselves (OM) and PIC have made a number of appearances at times and promised communication, but when things get delayed, or problematic, you disappear and start to look like the bad guys.

    I hope we hear from you weekly as promised, perhaps with information on what progress has been made eg 75% coding done, then internal testing before a beta is ready.

    While we all love our Touchpads, I imagine the market is getting smaller by the day.

    Thanks
    Ben
  9. #2049  
    Actions speak louder than words.

    Personally, I'm over it. I was going to install ACL on my gf's TouchPad, but it seems hers has fallen into the cannot charge/wake up category, and I don't have an Ubuntu machine to fix it (and haven't looked into whether or not I could do it via VM).

    I think everybody that has a vested interest in this project has had more than their share of lip service, promises, and let downs. For their sake, I hope you deliver.
    Due to the cancellation of the penny, I no longer give 2 about anything. I may however, give a nickel
  10. #2050  
    cuspie since your code is GPL where we can download it?
  11. #2051  
    Quote Originally Posted by George Boudouris View Post
    cuspie since your code is GPL where we can download it?
    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby View Post
    It's not as simple as that. Cuspie's code and OM's code is likely intertwined in such a way that you can't release one without the other, and to do so would likely cause a copyright claim in the opposite direction.

    -- Rod

    cuspie's GPL code was for the installer of the ACL Beta. cuspie's code is not ACL proper. ACL made use of the code (briefly) and the Beta is no longer available... What possible use would it be as a standalone?
    Lumia 1520.3 (the Beastly Unicorn): Windows 10 Mobile

    Windows Central Senior Ambassador

    Mobile Nations Devotee
  12. #2052  
    Quote Originally Posted by RumoredNow View Post
    cuspie's GPL code was for the installer of the ACL Beta. cuspie's code is not ACL proper. ACL made use of the code (briefly) and the Beta is no longer available... What possible use would it be as a standalone?
    For a simple application the installer doesn't show anything more than then directories the application is installed.

    At the level of a software that tries to combine two operating systems like ACL it would be interesting to see what directories it modifies so that ACL is installed.

    If it was a simple installer it wouldn't take them 2 month to rewrite it

    I am not that experienced with linux systems, but i am curious to see why they delay so much.

    From the ACL user perspective it wouldn't change much to me.

    Just curiosity mainly.
  13. #2053  
    Quote Originally Posted by George Boudouris View Post
    For a simple application the installer doesn't show anything more than then directories the application is installed.

    At the level of a software that tries to combine two operating systems like ACL it would be interesting to see what directories it modifies so that ACL is installed.

    If it was a simple installer it wouldn't take them 2 month to rewrite it

    I am not that experienced with linux systems, but i am curious to see why they delay so much.

    From the ACL user perspective it wouldn't change much to me.

    Just curiosity mainly.
    The Devil is always in the details

    My installer for version 0.6.0 consists of a number of things:
    1. A script to rip apart the OpenMobile .bin distribution file and reorganize it for installation in a different directory structure and as .xz compressed tar files (reduces the size of the IPK by 10M!). The big difference was organizing OpenMobile's use of /opt so that it would safely run when the USB drive is mounted as well as ensuring that the Android /system partition was actually mounted read-only as per Android specs.
    2. An installer, based on the reorganized .bin file, that first made sure that webos-internals Optware was installed so that ACL could safely use /opt, then installed ACL based upon my reorganization
    3. A set of patches to the OpenMobile startup script, /opt/omww/bin/start-acl.sh, buried in the .bin file (the .bin file is just a homegrown shar script) to provide support for things such as the TouchPad Go, support for ext4 filesystem if the kernel supported it (ext4 is the Android recommended filesystem), etc. The script patches also dealt with the fact that the BusyBox version of /bin/sh is being used which prohibits the use of certain constructs that OpenMobile had in their scripts.
    4. A patch to /etc/event.d/start-acl to make sure that ACL was actually installed before trying to start it
    5. A patch to /opt/omww/bin/mount.sh to enable USB mounting by suspending Android (ACL) processes when the USB is externally mounted
    6. An uninstaller script
    7. A background tool - called picsakd - which handled things such as: deleting ACL apps when their corresponding webOS app is deleted, properly triggering uninstall of ACL, license enforcement, etc. Basically, it was a catchall daemon for anything that was not easy to do in a script.
    8. The package also included an Enyo app, written by PIC, for doing license activation.

    To be fair, the actual base of my IPK was just a standard webos-internals IPK ... designed from the beginning to fit within the existing webos-internals GIT structure.

    Now from OpenMobile's stated to me point of view, there are a number of problems here:
    1. OpenMobile really wants to use their .bin file for distribution. Don't ask me why - it slows down the install, increases the size of the IPK, and makes progress notification in Preware a tad more difficult, but it is their code, so ...
    2. OpenMobile does not want patches to any of their scripts including startup-acl.sh or mount.sh ...
    3. OpenMobile really wants to prohibit the use of the ext4 filesystem, to the point that they are now carrying an ext3 filesystem buried in their .bin file for the Android /system partition ... in my approach, I created whichever filesystem you could support (either ext3 or ext4) and expanded the tar.xz file into the created filesystem. The only extra thing I had to add to the starutp script was a check - at ACL startup time - to see if your kernel still supported ext4 and, if it did not, rebuild as ext3. Yeah, I was going to clean that up - but OpenMobile's position was to prohibit ext4 support completely.
    4. OpenMobile did not want to support the Uberkernel. To be fair, I have not looked at the three GPL kernel patches they are carrying, so there may be a technical reason for this - but all of my development had been using the Uberkernel (why would I run anything else?)
    5. OpenMobile seems concerned that the startup script, startup-acl.sh, provides too much information about how ACL runs - so they are, as of the last IPK I saw, obscuring the code. Now, to be honest - it doesn't take much looking at the process tree, mounts, and /dev to figure out what's happening - but they were worried about it.

    To your comment about "It would be interesting to see what directories it modifies so that ACL is installed." - there is not a lot of magic here. They simply build a chroot'ed environment for running Android. This approach is used by a number of open source Android runtime environments attempts I have seen on the net. The tricky thing is that they use quite a few mount points to build the chroot'ed environment (you can easily see this by looking at /proc/mounts). This is a source of complications with start/stop of ACL as well as uninstalling ACL after it has been started. For example, /media/internal - the USB drive for the TouchPad, is mounted into the Android chroot environment ... accidently delete the Android environment without unmounting /media/internal and it makes a bloody mess of your TouchPad. Worse - there are some mount points that cannot be unmounted without rebooting (I'm sure there was a way to fix this and I believe I know what was holding the mount, but it was obscure enough that even lsof didn't show it!).

    Now - looking at my old 0.6.0 scripts won't really help you with the new version of ACL being developed by OpenMobile. OpenMobile has moved off of /opt (YEA! - I asked for that back in September), and OpenMobile moved the Android process suspension work out of mount.sh and into their executable code where it always did belong.

    To your observation "If it was a simple installer it wouldn't take them 2 month to rewrite it." - there was a wee bit more here than just a simple installer script.

    cuspie
  14. #2054  
    Very interesting, I think! Haven't read this from post '1'. Just jumped in where an ACL tweet directed me.
    I don't use the TouchPad very much but thought I'd try ACL to see what it (Android) is like. Just in case my Pre3 gives up before me and I have to get an Android phone.
    I managed to install the 'release' before it was pulled. I sent several emails enquiring about what was wrong after that and got no reply. I only wanted, and still do, to know if it was safe to use. i.e. the problem could have been with an application I would never use.
    There's not much point trying to use it, or uninstall it, if my T'Pad becomes useless.
  15. #2055  
    Quote Originally Posted by cuspie View Post
    The Devil is always in the details
    ..
    3. A set of patches to the OpenMobile startup script, /opt/omww/bin/start-acl.sh, buried in the .bin file (the .bin file is just a homegrown shar script) to provide support for things such as the TouchPad Go,

    Now from OpenMobile's stated to me point of view, there are a number of problems here:

    2. OpenMobile does not want patches to any of their scripts including startup-acl.sh or mount.sh ...
    Hmm - is this detail the reason why OM ACL will not support the TouchPad Go ??
    There was some "fix" available to allow it work for the Go - but if these scripts go away - where to apply that "Go fix" then ?
    ---
    It is hard to understand what the OM business logic is ..
  16. #2056  
    Quote Originally Posted by MartinH@webos View Post
    Hmm - is this detail the reason why OM ACL will not support the TouchPad Go ??
    There was some "fix" available to allow it work for the Go - but if these scripts go away - where to apply that "Go fix" then ?
    ---
    It is hard to understand what the OM business logic is ..
    You would need to mount the file system as RW and patch the relevant files in order to get it working on the Go I think.
    HP Veer (daily driver), HP Pre 3, HP Touchpad Proper 4G/LTE (Sierra MC7710), HP Touchpad 32GB WiFi, Palm Pre 2
  17. #2057  
    Quote Originally Posted by MartinH@webos View Post
    Hmm - is this detail the reason why OM ACL will not support the TouchPad Go ??
    There was some "fix" available to allow it work for the Go - but if these scripts go away - where to apply that "Go fix" then ?
    ---
    It is hard to understand what the OM business logic is ..
    The business logic is that they are asking for payment for their software and will therefore be expected to offer some support.
    1. OM don't have a TouchPad Go, so cannot test proper function on that device.
    2. Exactly how many TP Gos are out there? Is it really worth the time and expense to develop compared to the potential profit?

    It may very well be possible to hack this software onto a Go as was done with the beta release, but as is often the case now with webOS, it is at your own risk, ymmv and... well the whole 'warranty void' thing must be long gone by now anyway!
  18. #2058  
    Quote Originally Posted by Herrie View Post
    You would need to mount the file system as RW and patch the relevant files in order to get it working on the Go I think.
    It should be quite straightforward ... the three GPL kernel modules carried by OpenMobile have to be patched and that's it. It's really easy - we just need to wait for OpenMobile to release ACL to ensure nothing else has to change, then a simple package can be built to do the patch.

    Of course, it is completely unreasonable to expect OpenMobile to support this as they don't even have a TouchPad Go for testing. However, I don't see restoring TouchPad Go support as a challenge.

    cuspie
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  19. #2059  
    Quote Originally Posted by cuspie View Post
    It should be quite straightforward ... the three GPL kernel modules carried by OpenMobile have to be patched and that's it. It's really easy - we just need to wait for OpenMobile to release ACL to ensure nothing else has to change, then a simple package can be built to do the patch.

    Of course, it is completely unreasonable to expect OpenMobile to support this as they don't even have a TouchPad Go for testing. However, I don't see restoring TouchPad Go support as a challenge.

    cuspie
    I already created a script (will post, when they release) based on CvvB's LunaSysMgr keyboard script, which will patch the version string to the Go's, as the three kernel files are GPL we can also modify those and post them (which I have done via PM for others who have Go's, want it PM me), as it is not copyrighted by OMWW, and is GPL it is not part of their copyright work, and they also should release the GPL source code for those three modules so we can then compile those for other webOS devices (some of what would be needed to get it to work).
    Proximity likes this.
  20. #2060  
    Quote Originally Posted by Auld-Yin View Post
    Very interesting, I think! Haven't read this from post '1'. Just jumped in where an ACL tweet directed me.
    I don't use the TouchPad very much but thought I'd try ACL to see what it (Android) is like. Just in case my Pre3 gives up before me and I have to get an Android phone.
    I managed to install the 'release' before it was pulled. I sent several emails enquiring about what was wrong after that and got no reply. I only wanted, and still do, to know if it was safe to use. i.e. the problem could have been with an application I would never use.
    There's not much point trying to use it, or uninstall it, if my T'Pad becomes useless.
    I too downloaded the 1.0 version before it was pulled and have had few issues with it (much less issues than the .60 beta). It is safe to use, at least until they come out with an updated/legal version. The only issue I've had that wasn't solved by a simple restart was addressed here:
    http://forums.webosnation.com/hp-tou...nt-launch.html
    My gadget list-TouchPad, Pre 3, Pre 2, Pre+, Pixi+, Treo 700p, Treo 650, Centro, Handspring, Kyocera 6035, 7135-all with Verizon.

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