Page 6 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast
Results 101 to 120 of 125
Like Tree24Likes
  1. #101  
    What facts are you posting? Dates? Why are you saying it's impossible to get more stock in less than 10 days if a retailer is selling out? Where is that fact?

    Retails general rule of thumb is to have 6 weeks of stock in store. If Staples was getting lower than that at anytime, they would have reordered.
  2. #102  
    OldSkoolVWLover, thank you! There seems to be some revisionist history on the part of the naysayers, not the webOS users who read the stories and were in the stores prior to the August 18th announcement. Only Best Buy was having problems moving stock, which is understandable considering that all of their competitors were selling the TouchPad for at least $100 less. This would negate them as a good indicator of sales, seeing that customers with half of a brain would bypass them and go somewhere else. You can't even use them as a good indicator on returns since most customers were taking advantage of the system by returning the devices, then buying them at Staples for $200 less. Which goes back to my original point, what did the other 80% of the market look like?

    ---Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities (a great webOS app!)
  3. #103  
    What facts are you posting? Dates? Why are you saying it's impossible to get more stock in less than 10 days if a retailer is selling out? Where is that fact?

    Retails general rule of thumb is to have 6 weeks of stock in store. If Staples was getting lower than that at anytime, they would have reordered.
    If there is a run on sales, how do you maintain a healthy 6 week stock? If a competitor is sitting on over 30% of the initial stock for a device and all other competitors are depleting their stock, to include the manufacture (HP sold the device directly from their site), how do you get more stock in a timely manner? It would have made sense for HP to transfer Best Buy's stock to other competitors so the tablets would sell, since they were obviously in demand. Instead HP killed the project because one store wasn't selling well.


    ---Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities (a great webOS app!)
  4. #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    If there is a run on sales, how do you maintain a healthy 6 week stock? If a competitor is sitting on over 30% of the initial stock for a device and all other competitors are depleting their stock, to include the manufacture (HP sold the device directly from their site), how do you get more stock in a timely manner? It would have made sense for HP to transfer Best Buy's stock to other competitors so the tablets would sell, since they were obviously in demand. Instead HP killed the project because one store wasn't selling well.


    ---Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities (a great webOS app!)
    You are saying that every touchpad was shipped and there was no remaining stock?

    There is also inter chain movement of stock. Store 457 is not moving any units so they move them to store 395.
  5. #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    OldSkoolVWLover, thank you! There seems to be some revisionist history on the part of the naysayers, not the webOS users who read the stories and were in the stores prior to the August 18th announcement. Only Best Buy was having problems moving stock, which is understandable considering that all of their competitors were selling the TouchPad for at least $100 less. This would negate them as a good indicator of sales, seeing that customers with half of a brain would bypass them and go somewhere else. You can't even use them as a good indicator on returns since most customers were taking advantage of the system by returning the devices, then buying them at Staples for $200 less. Which goes back to my original point, what did the other 80% of the market look like?

    ---Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities (a great webOS app!)
    How do you know Best Buy was having trouble moving stock? If a Staples had 10 units and a Best Buy 45 and they both sold 10 units, is Best Buy having more trouble than Staples moving units?
  6. #106  
    You are saying that every touchpad was shipped and there was no remaining stock?

    There is also inter chain movement of stock. Store 457 is not moving any units so they move them to store 395.
    Did you not understand that Staples was out? Store 457 can't move something they don't have.


    ---Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities (a great webOS app!)
  7. #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    Did you not understand that Staples was out? Store 457 can't move something they don't have.


    ---Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities (a great webOS app!)
    You checked with the Staples in Montana?
  8. #108  
    How do you know Best Buy was having trouble moving stock? If a Staples had 10 units and a Best Buy 45 and they both sold 10 units, is Best Buy having more trouble than Staples moving units?
    I don't think that was the case. I think Staples and others sold more units then Best Buy. I also think that Best Buy's stock of units was manipulate by customers. Best Buy sold units at full price only to have them returned before the 15 day window for a full rebate. Then the customer went to a competitor and bought the same device at a discount, sticking Best Buy with a unit they can't restock since the box was opened.


    ---Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities (a great webOS app!)
  9. #109  
    Even CRN admits Leo was up to no good with the TouchPad and the spin off of the PSG. Check out the second paragraph of this story:

    http://www.crn.com/slide-shows/chann...y5w**.ecappj03

    ---Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities (a great webOS app!)
  10. #110  
    You checked with the Staples in Montana?
    I think you are purposely being facetious.


    ---Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities (a great webOS app!)
  11. #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    If there is a run on sales, how do you maintain a healthy 6 week stock? If a competitor is sitting on over 30% of the initial stock for a device and all other competitors are depleting their stock, to include the manufacture (HP sold the device directly from their site), how do you get more stock in a timely manner? It would have made sense for HP to transfer Best Buy's stock to other competitors so the tablets would sell, since they were obviously in demand. Instead HP killed the project because one store wasn't selling well.


    ---Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities (a great webOS app!)
    If there truly was enough demand at other retailers, it wouldn't have been shut down simply because Best Buy had too much stock.

    Again, for your scenario to be correct, it has to be believed that ALL stock was shipped retail, which sounds dubious as they thought they had a tablet that would sell 270K in Best Buy alone. They would have had enough stock to keep the supplies going with a runaway hit.

    Best Buy was itching to get rid of their stock overages on top of this. If there was real heat at Staples, the product would have been there.
    Last edited by rnld; 02/01/2012 at 10:42 PM.
  12. #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    I think you are purposely being facetious.


    ---Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities (a great webOS app!)
    Not anymore than your claim that Staples was completely sold out.
  13. kalel33's Avatar
    Posts
    280 Posts
    Global Posts
    281 Global Posts
    #113  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    Remember Best Buy was the only store not honoring HP's rebate. Best Buy was definitely not a good barometer of sales for the TouchPad. [/color]
    Even if Best Buy was more expensive, they are still a decent barometer because people usually pay more anyways for most products there. Their pricing on a majority of their products are overpriced, yet they are the largest electronic's sales store. I live in a town of over 400,000 and there isn't even a Staple's here.

    Also, it wasn't Best Buy also having problems selling the Touchpads. If they were selling so well then they wouldn't have done the first $100 drop, followed by the second. You don't discount products that sell well. Here's the article that states it wasn't just BB having the issue.

    OuchPad: Best Buy Sitting on a Pile of HP Tablets - Arik Hesseldahl - News - AllThingsD

    "Thereís more. TouchPad sales arenít only failing to catch on at Best Buy, but also at other retailers, including Wal-Mart, Micro Center and Fryís,"
  14. #114  
    Quote Originally Posted by kalel33 View Post
    Even if Best Buy was more expensive, they are still a decent barometer because people usually pay more anyways for most products there. Their pricing on a majority of their products are overpriced, yet they are the largest electronic's sales store. I live in a town of over 400,000 and there isn't even a Staple's here.

    Also, it wasn't Best Buy also having problems selling the Touchpads. If they were selling so well then they wouldn't have done the first $100 drop, followed by the second. You don't discount products that sell well. Here's the article that states it wasn't just BB having the issue.

    OuchPad: Best Buy Sitting on a Pile of HP Tablets - Arik Hesseldahl - News - AllThingsD

    "There’s more. TouchPad sales aren’t only failing to catch on at Best Buy, but also at other retailers, including Wal-Mart, Micro Center and Fry’s,"
    First, I believe many folks are getting a lot more sophisticated these days when it comes to buying electronics. Best Buy is getting bypassed simply because they are more expensive. When they were competing with Circuit City it was on price. Best Buy had the lowest. Now they are competing against the Internet and other stores for the same reason and they are on the other side of the spectrum.

    Second, your town not having a Staples is irrelevent to the conversation. Does your town have a Walmart or high speed Internet access and a postal delivery service? I'm pretty sure they do. HP's own website as well as Amazon, Walmart, and others were selling the device for less than Best Buy also. Amazon even offering free delivery in most instances so you don't even have to leave your house. Read a review about the price drop online, then click on the link to the store, order the product, and it's at your doorstep in under a week.

    Last, I agree that a price drop indicates that a product is not selling well AT THE PRICE YOU SET. That is not necessarily an indicator that the consumer doesn't like or want your product. They simply can't afford it. We had two nice discussions about that. First, one of the most successful phones in the industry, the iPhone, suffered a price drop immediately after it entered the market. Steve Jobs wanted more folks to buy it and the price was preventing that. It was arguably successful without the price drop. Something to think about there. Second, rebates and price drops are HP's modus operadi. They do this all the time so it is hard to judge their reasonings from time to time. Last, there is a lack of journalistic integrety in the tech world. Products are ruled failures even before the first one goes on sell in part because of the reviewer's bias. I hear that the Kindle Fire is a failure also and is not selling well. I definitely don't believe that, but if you have an Apple biased you might believe that to be true. Especially if the "journalist" ties the story to Amazon's earnings report.

    I don't want to sound defensive here. There seemed to be this negativety in this forum to the TouchPad and webOS from folks who miraculously joined the forum in July and August. Many of whom when you pressed them admitted to not owning a TouchPad or webOS device and most of their post seem to proseylitize other products. I challenge that at every turn just to keep the discussions fair. What Leo did was stupid and irresponsible. He paid for it by losing his job and the new CEO has sought to reverse most of his decisions at every turn. Including the ones about webOS. We don't need any more evidence than that.

    Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk
  15. ggendel's Avatar
    Posts
    463 Posts
    Global Posts
    818 Global Posts
    #115  
    Best Buy always gives me a bad taste in my mouth. I was there for the TouchPad launch at my local Best Buy and it's no wonder it didn't sell.

    * The display was in disarray, while next to it was a glitzy and eye-catching iPad display.
    * The demo software ran abysmally slow and it didn't let you play.
    * Only one of two demo devices was working.
    * Wifi was almost non-existent.
    * The sales staff had no training.

    There was an HP representative there that did get the units functioning reasonably well (with my help). I did buy because I knew it's potential and dismissed the above problems but I can see why most others wouldn't.
    Palm III->Palm IV->Palm V->M130->Tungsten->Treo 270->Treo 600->Treo 700->Palm Pre Plus->FrankenPre 2->Pre 3 & TouchPad
  16. #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by ggendel View Post
    Best Buy always gives me a bad taste in my mouth.
    i hear ya, each time i left a worstbuy i felt as though i needed a shower. i do everything i can to avoid that hell hole
    Palm prē-ist.
  17. #117  
    Quote Originally Posted by icd9icd9 View Post
    Best Buy and Amazon have roughly the same revenue per year - around $50 billion. You would have to dig deeper to see which company has more consumer electronics as a percentage of their sales but I would guess that Best Buy is more likely to sell something electronic given that they don't sell books, cookery, clothes, furniture, etc. like Amazon does. I think that makes Best Buy pretty important in retail consumer electronics - at least as important as Amazon.
    I don't want to hijack the OP's original point by continuing the argument over Best Buy's importance too much further. We can go back and forth over their importance in the overall consumer electronics market, which I think is waning. I think when specifically addressing Best Buy's importance to TouchPad sales prior to the August 18th announcement, Best Buy was a less important barometer of TouchPad's success because their competitors out maneuvered them on sales of the device. You have to logically expect that consumers would buck store loyalty for a much lesser price, causing Best Buy to lose sales at a rate they would not normally see if the prices were the same.

    The only reason I brought up Best Buy and Staples in the discussion was that folks were taking Best Buy's impact out of context. Yes Best Buy was sitting on large stocks of TouchPads. Yes it was because Best Buy could not sell them. No it was not an indicator that the TouchPad was unpopular. Best Buy could not sell them because they were $200 cheaper at Staples and other stores. Those stores were seeing healthy sales because of the price and those stores were moving units.

    Now for some assumptions. I believe that Leo used the negative story about Best Buy's large, unmoving stock as an excuse to execute his plan to turn HP into a software centric company. The Best Buy story broke right before the earnings report. No one, not Ruby, or Bradley, or any of the development team knew about Leo's decision to dump the PSG and kill webOS hardware until right before the event. Everyone seemed shocked about the outcome, which included tech journalists, HP employees, suppliers, retailers, cellular providers, and consumers. If a product is truly tanking fast, I think that some of the employees out on the line would know about it before the management staff. They track these things for the management staff and talk to buddies about this stuff at water coolers or in the company cafeteria. They would know what is coming before it happens so there would be little to no shock. I would also think that a responsible company would notify their suppliers of their intent prior to execution. I would also think that retailers would have known what was coming based off their own sales figures. In this case it seem that only Leo knew what was coming.
  18. #118  
    This thread seems to concentrate on condemning Leo as the Fred-the-shred who ruined HP. Let me present the case with some historical data:

    The company bearing the hp logo today is NOT the compant founded by Bill and Dave after the War. That company and its core business of Instrumentation and the highest quality and precision measuring and Electrical Reference devices was hived off as Agilent in the late Nineties.

    The Computer equipment developed by HP grew from the Instrumentation controllers and scientific application minicomputers necessary to support the innovative range of superb equipment developed by the Hewlett Packard company. These computers ranged from small microcontrollers running interpretive code to minicomputers running HP's instantiation of Unix labeled HP/UX.

    In the mid eighties, after IBM marketed the open architecture PC running MS-DOS, HP brought out its me-too PC clone and continued to compete as a small-time player in this field until the nineties.

    During this time, there was a massive consolidation taking place in the Computer industry and to cut a long story short, HP swallowed Compaq who were still choking on having swallowed Digital (DEC). At this time, IBM had just ditched the Personal Printer and PC market, having floated off Lexmark and sold the PC Divison to Lenovo.

    IBM's strategic reason for doing this was to correct its falling Gross Profit margins which had declined into the Teens from levels near 40% in the 70s. IBM having relied on organic growth ere then, now embarked on an acquisitive spree, growing its software portfolio and Services and Outsourcing offerings. IBM today is a 50%+ Gross Profit company.

    Having changed course several times and having sacked Carly Fiorina and Mark Hurd (albeit for different reasons), both of whom believed they were building a Computer Company with a services arm (having bought EDS), the HP Board was looking enviously across at IBM and hired Leo to accelerate the transition to a HIGH MARGIN Services Company.

    Having spent most of his time at SAP (which incedentally was formed by a group of renegade IBM'ers from the Sindelfingen Lab), Leo went about his job the only way he knew. Firstly, he had to separate the HIGH MARGIN High Pay division from the Low Margin business which was then paying the same Salary and Benefits as the High Margin Business. This was his imperative and MUST be Meg's imperative too if HP is to survive.

    Let's examine the PSG which is a ~10% Margin business, still paying over the odds to retain the talent that it acquired from Compaq and Digital. This has be firewalled from the Services business to allow separate employment terms to be applied from the Services Business which pays Banker-esque Salary and Bonuses. However, what MUST be retained is the HP Umbrella which allows both divisions to benefit from the purchasing and sales synergy.

    So, Where does the newly acquired Loss-making consumer product business fit into this picture? Apple survives in this marketplace by carefully engineering the marketplace, strip-teasing new functionality and style to sell its consumer products at >50% Gross Margin. The proof of this is blatantly obvious. Just compare the price of a Mac-anything with the price of a similarly spec'ed PC. It is twice the price.

    Whether Leo fudged the figures or not is moot. The proof of this is that Meg has NOT reversed his decision but rather has ensured a soft landing by throwing some loose change at it.

    Now you can question my credentials .... but if I presented these, I would have to charge you for it.
  19. #119  
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheel_nut View Post
    This thread seems to concentrate on condemning Leo as the Fred-the-shred who ruined HP. Let me present the case with some historical data:


    Whether Leo fudged the figures or not is moot. The proof of this is that Meg has NOT reversed his decision but rather has ensured a soft landing by throwing some loose change at it.

    Now you can question my credentials .... but if I presented these, I would have to charge you for it.
    Quote Originally Posted by jessicatapley View Post
    Agree here. Leo's webOS decisions have not been reversed in the slightest, and people acting like he got fired for webOS or that is what made the stock tank just aren't seeing the full picture at all. Hold on to that "promise" of a 2013 webOS tablet with just as much weight as you held onto all of the other broken HP promises from Feb.9 until Black Friday.
    Partial agreement, Leo was sacked because the stock tanked, period. I'm willing to entertain facts to prove otherwise. The webOS issues didn't factor other than perhaps the manner in with he went about it exposed a careless management style.

    But the conversation about not reversing the decision about webOS is valid ONLY if you ignore a lot of detail about the situation at the time. Some of it has been enumerated in previous posts.

    • The fact that the Autonomy deal was in play, eating 'spending money'.
    • The fact that the webOS was actually killed and the PSG plan was merely announced.
    • The fact that each delay increased the cost of continuing precipitously.


    The path was not at all the same for success when Meg took over as it was when Leo dropped the bomb. There was no way they could restart webOS as much as some of us would have liked to see it happen. If they choked at development costs at the time they shut down, the re-start would have added a magnitude of cost to the effort.

    (And this is not including their inability to execute on something as simple as quality control - cracks in the TP speakers after a week of use is INEXCUABLE for HP to have permitted.)

    If or not Leo stacked the deck to make his drastic action look more reasonable (I suspect he did) is only of academic interest.

    Funny that NONE of the principals has stepped up and stated what they did wrong in this whole affair. It was merely lowly webOS that stood up and crippled two different organizations all by itself.

    Funny too that Meg even felt compelled to make the promise of a potential webOS tablet in the future. Seems like there are few in the organization who know that their failure wasn't merely a dumb accident. I can't imagine that her comments were designed to placate the small base of webOS fans here on WebOS Nation.

    C
    "Sometimes I feel like an OS-less child..."
    (with apologies to Billie Holiday )
  20. kalel33's Avatar
    Posts
    280 Posts
    Global Posts
    281 Global Posts
    #120  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    There seemed to be this negativety in this forum to the TouchPad and webOS from folks who miraculously joined the forum in July and August. Many of whom when you pressed them admitted to not owning a TouchPad or webOS device and most of their post seem to proseylitize other products. I challenge that at every turn just to keep the discussions fair.
    Oh, I'll admit it. I bought the Touchpad with full intentions of installing Android. I found I like WebOS and have stated numerous times it's a better tablet OS than Android. I wouldn't have it on my phone but a tablet yes. The one thing that is clear is that on the other side of "negative" posts are posts by people trying to rewrite history and making it seem like WebOS was a succes in sales before the firesale, to which it absolutely was not. To this day I've never seen another WebOS device in the wild, besides in a store, nor do not know anyone who has ever owned a WebOS device besides the 3 friends I told about the Touchpad sale.

    I keep it fair but for how good WebOS is now, not when I first got it without tweeks and patches that ran extremely slow, it was a failure in the marketplace. When I got the Touchpad it was very slow(compared to IOS or Android) and lacked/lacks considerably in apps and content. It will always be the OS with potential, but sooner or later it has to meet that potential or die in obscurity.
Page 6 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast

Posting Permissions