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  1. #141  
    Quote Originally Posted by rnld View Post
    Copy and paste or the lack of it did not stop the success of the iPhone.
    Nobody said it did. I was just correcting some revisionist history. IOS did not make the iPhone successful either.
  2. #142  
    Quote Originally Posted by inertia1 View Post
    Perhaps each retailer or carrier should be encouraged to set up a "special needs" category of smartphone for devices that are hampered by sliders...

    Even a small sign that said "Please be aware that this smartphone has a slider. It will be thicker and will break more often due to the moving parts."
    Sliders are thicker and heavier. It's the nature of the beast.

    That is why the 3.1" Pre feels bigger overall in your pocket than the 4.5" Epic 4G Touch or 4.65" Galaxy Nexus. And they all weigh the same. (Specs)

    3.1" Pre: 3.96 x 2.34 x 0.67 = 6.45 in≥
    4.5" Epic 4G Touch: 5.11 x 2.74 x 0.38 = 5.32 in≥
    4.65" Galaxy Nexus: 5.33 x 2.67 x 0.35 = 4.98 in≥

    Sliders have higher failure rates but not like this. A manager at a Best Buy said the Pre set records for returns.

    Compal has and continues to build really good sliders. But Palm had them to make it look like a plastic rock. Palm had "Zen" rocks at their desks to keep them focused.

    Say what you want about BlackBerry but they can sell sliders that don't break.
    Last edited by milominderbinder; 01/03/2012 at 10:18 PM.
  3. #143  
    A big problem about these articles about webos being doomed from the start reference the poor quality hardware and on webos 1.0. Have any of these people bothered to use a pre plus device on vzw or AT&T, a pixi of any flavor, a veer, a pre 2, or a pre 3, over clocked as in the pre plus and stock as in the 1 ghz/512 mb ram???

    These latter devices, though not compelling to a large portion of the consumer market, as evidenced by their poor sales, were much better quality than the crap pre minus that palm put out, and much quicker.

    Other than google maps, these latter devices no longer suffered from much lag or hardware issues. Atleast no different than other phones.

    Webos was doomed AFTER it started, As opposed to from the start, due to some bad executive decisions, terrible marketing, terrible timing, lack of financial resources and patience from its owners, poor carrier support and lack of creativity in hardware
    treodoc755, ka1 and cobrakon like this.
  4. #144  
    Quote Originally Posted by rnld View Post
    Yet none of them had the overall experience of the iPhone. But this is also why business did not embrace the iPhone for quite some time.
    You ask a question. It was answered in earnest, then you change the subject. Admit it, the iPhone was missing a ton of features that other phones AT THE TIME had that were important. So the Pre or webOS missing a ton of features is not the issue.

    Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk
  5. #145  
    “You never get a second chance to make a first impression”

    Ruby thought he knew zen and outzen the zen master
    When he probably wasn't a true believer lol
    People didn't want a pebble...
    He eliminated a huge segment of buyers.
    He continued on with the pixi and veer.
    He should have stuck with a slab.
    He had pretty good Kung foo with the cards and swipes though.

    Quote Originally Posted by MDsmartphone View Post
    A big problem about these articles about webos being doomed from the start reference the poor quality hardware and on webos 1.0. Have any of these people bothered to use a pre plus device on vzw or AT&T, a pixi of any flavor, a veer, a pre 2, or a pre 3, over clocked as in the pre plus and stock as in the 1 ghz/512 mb ram???

    These latter devices, though not compelling to a large portion of the consumer market, as evidenced by their poor sales, were much better quality than the crap pre minus that palm put out, and much quicker.

    Other than google maps, these latter devices no longer suffered from much lag or hardware issues. Atleast no different than other phones.

    Webos was doomed AFTER it started, As opposed to from the start, due to some bad executive decisions, terrible marketing, terrible timing, lack of financial resources and patience from its owners, poor carrier support and lack of creativity in hardware
  6. #146  
    It not that iPhone missed a lot of features or even had the best specs... Its what they did have... The features they did provide... They did make sure it worked well...made sure it ALL worked well together. To make it magical with the experience that you didn't miss the others like cut and paste or could wait a little longer for it in the next update or the next upgrade.

    Imo, Webos made the experience magical with cards and swipes and maybe synergy to help create some followers... The rest of the experience ruined the phone for the rest.

    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    You ask a question. It was answered in earnest, then you change the subject. Admit it, the iPhone was missing a ton of features that other phones AT THE TIME had that were important. So the Pre or webOS missing a ton of features is not the issue.

    Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk
    Last edited by donm527; 01/03/2012 at 11:06 PM.
  7. #147  
    My take on this is that Palm and its webOS was simply at the wrong place, wrong time. Coming out on Sprint instead of Verizon and 6 months after announcement helped hinder it's success. Coupled with crap hardware,slider design, plastic screen, and buggy software helped make it forgettable to consumers. It's as simple as that.

    Similar things are happening to Microsoft right now. Old hardware and lacking software. If Microsoft can't make it this year with Nokia than it's over for WP7. Until the next big advancements for phones.
  8. #148  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    He/she touched on speed. I wanted to point out that others like the OS for more than just speed and that does not seem to be respected around here.
    "he/she" did not touch on speed. Here is the entire post i was responding to.
    Quote Originally Posted by rnld View Post
    It's interesting that people will compare the current WebOS to something another company had 3 or 4 years ago.

    WebOS is in competition with today and tomorrow, not the past
    no mention of speed. That post was merely a statement. He did not quote anyone. He merely made a statement. It was statement about the act of comparing one product to an older product.

    And when the general topic is why a product failed with the general public I don't believe it is truly pertinent that a smaller group of people are happy with the product for reasons other then speed. We all know why they like it. Those people are clearly not indicative of the greater smartphone consumer that did not want to buy webos products. If they were indicative the products would have sold well.



    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    I understand where he/she was coming from. However, there are a lot of product that come out with features that are ahead of their time, while lacking features that others have had for years.
    And if that is a feature or level of function that the bulk of consumers require and that product lacks it then that product generally fails. The playbook lacked and email feature. It failed. There are some things that you can get away without having. For example, i don't think a the lack of a compass is gonna deter many consumers but if your smart phone lacks, hypothetically, decent email bad reception people won't buy it.

    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    What saved the iPhone was not the software...
    the iphone has never needed to be saved. And it's software was better then anything out when it launched. And most iphone users like the software. They have ridiculously high customer satisfaction rates. in the 90th percentile.

    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    The software for the iPhone did not catch up to others until 2 years later and with respects to webOS
    That's an argument that easily cuts both ways. In many ways webos has not caught up to the competition as well. Not to mention whether an os is adequate is a matter of what's important to the user. Where webos may be ahead are multitasking and maybe notifications. But to most people the manner in which the OS multitasking is not so important to negate other strengths like better email, music players, lightning quick responsiveness, voice commands on platforms like android, the polished look of the ios interface, a touchscreen keyboard, a huge app catalog, etc. Many people want a simple interface that ios is and it's one of the reasons people argue that Android is too cluttered. So many and probably, way way more would argue webos hasn't caught up to IOS in the sense that webos can be slow, lags, it takes forever to start up, it crashes, lacks voice commands, lacks visual voicemail (i think), lacks a touchscreen keyboard, lacks voice searching, has camera app with few features, lacks cloud music syncing, lacks a lot of mainstream apps and robust app development. What OS lags behind what is an argument that goes both ways depending on what is important. Clearly the general public has decided that what webos does well isn't enough to make them buy the phones. It may multitask well but if that was enough webos devices would have sold better. It's just not enough to be good at that one thing when it's not the most important thing for consumers.

    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    Hardware matters more than software does.
    Not to me. They both important. I require a good camera sensor and 1080p recording. That's hardware. I require no lag when i touch my screen and a top notch music player app. That's software. It matter more to you. Regardless, i've had many HP products and i'd have to disagree, just my opinion, but i've just never been fond of their hardware especially the phones but laptops and desktops too. But i've bought three HP computers and they've all failed.

    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    BTW, I live by the ocean were there is a lot of leisure fishing and people do buy vehicles just to tow boats.
    Great. So do I. I live two blocks from the Pacific Ocean and the overwhelming majority of people here don't buy a vehicle with the purpose of towing their boat. Not only that. Most people don't live two blocks from the ocean or have a boat to tow. That was really the point. Not that there is something wrong with towing a boat but that it is not representative of the majority of people buying vehicles. I never said people don't buy vehicles to tow boats. I said MOST people don't.
    You come at the king. You best not miss.
  9. #149  
    a pixi with pre/pre3 screen size would have done it for them.

    less returns faultiness
  10. #150  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    Nobody said it did. I was just correcting some revisionist history. IOS did not make the iPhone successful either.
    iOS didn't make the iPhone successful? There was nothing like iOS in the market in 2007 and I would contend that iOS was a HUGE part of the success.
    SnotBoogie likes this.
  11. #151  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    You ask a question. It was answered in earnest, then you change the subject. Admit it, the iPhone was missing a ton of features that other phones AT THE TIME had that were important. So the Pre or webOS missing a ton of features is not the issue.

    Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk
    You are not considering what else was in the marketplace in 2007.

    What "ton of features" was the iPhone missing?
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    #152  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    What saved the iPhone was not the software, it was the hardware. Having a 4 inch capacitive touchscreen[/color]
    Iphone customers never had or still don't have a 4" touch screen. Apple's OCD on battery life has kept them from making a screen larger than the entry level Android phone and no 4G, because it uses too much power. Most Iphone users want a 4" screen, according to polls, but they'll buy whatever they put out.

    Iphone didn't need to be save, they are just one of the greatest marketing companies ever. When I used to work electronics in college I had many people asking to buy an Ipod and then would ask what the difference between an MP3 player and an Ipod was. Most consumers are stupid about technology and they go with what is popular or hip. I had to have Pepe or Guess clothing in Middle School because it was popular. I didn't care if other clothes were better. It's the same with many kids now, they want an Iphone but they can't give an explanation why.
  13. #153  
    Quote Originally Posted by kalel33 View Post

    Iphone didn't need to be save, they are just one of the greatest marketing companies ever. When I used to work electronics in college I had many people asking to buy an Ipod and then would ask what the difference between an MP3 player and an Ipod was. Most consumers are stupid about technology and they go with what is popular or hip. I had to have Pepe or Guess clothing in Middle School because it was popular. I didn't care if other clothes were better. It's the same with many kids now, they want an Iphone but they can't give an explanation why.
    What other MP3 players are there now or were there when the iPod hit the market?
  14. #154  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    Admit it, the iPhone was missing a ton of features that other phones AT THE TIME had that were important.
    Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk
    The iPhone incorporated the iPod into a mobile phone with an amazing interface, browser, email client and other OSX features. There was nothing like it in the marketplace.
  15. kalel33's Avatar
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    #155  
    Quote Originally Posted by rnld View Post
    What other MP3 players are there now or were there when the iPod hit the market?
    I wish you would have put a "seriously" or "JK" after that question to know if you were sincerely asking, because Apple did not create the MP3 player.....far from it. I'm going to answer this as serious: Cowen, Creative, Samsung, Sandisk, iRiver, Sony, and Microsoft. Not to mention all the cheap players that were around. The Ipods were ranked in the lower category of audio quality and the Itunes songs were more compressed than other competitors. The battery didn't last more than 2 years, so you always had to buy a new one(I had two Ipad Nanos). The click dial was excellent but everything else you could find better. I bought the Nanos because I wanted an MP3 player for running that I could get an armband for.

    When I did electronics, I talked many people out of buying an Ipod and buying a Creative Zen, which was a better MP3 player. I never seen one come back returned. What I did see was people that wanted Apple, told how much better another player was, they agreed, but went with Apple anyways.......because it's Apple. Duh! It's like the video that the Best Buy employee did about the ignorant customers he talked to on a daily basis.

    cobrakon likes this.
  16. Loiter's Avatar
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    #156  
    The first iPhone was a joke compared to the competition. It lacked important features for its time, features that other phones had and it was very expensive. The same goes for the iPods. Better MP3 players existed in vast numbers. However, don't underestimate the gullibility of the human race and the power of marketing. Apple made iPods the synonym of music and iPhones the synonym of smartphone.
    Based on their big "fan" market they were able to get away with all the problems because of their nice design and of their excellent marketing.
    However that is NOT enough. They have to do something more. They improve. They stay focused and add features. iOS has come a long way to iOS5. The iPhones now are not jokes. They are very good phones. However they still have drawbacks, things that for example in WM6 existed are presented like breakthrough features in newer iOS versions. That's the point of marketing. But it's not like they just spread lies about their products and cover their weaknesses. They make good decisions, they fight their competition and have evolved making better phones and pads. iPad2 is better than iPad, iPhone4 better than iPhone3G.
    The Pre phones after the Pre+ are somewhat the same, with some CPU boost and small differences.

    The story of webOS on the other hand is not the same. The drawbacks were not hidden beneath the carpet. webOS did not have that advertisting power. However, the faults of webOS are not because of "conspiracy" or just bad reviews.
    Palm and HP made bad decisions in critical moments.

    For example IMHO:
    1) The TouchPad was very expensive. You can't go to compete with the iPads and their ecosystem around the same price. Why should anyone decide for a TP against a "magical" iPad if they are on the same price?
    2) The TouchPad was not ready. 3.0.4 makes it a very nice tablet, in my opinion better than the Android tabs (with the exception of available apps) and on the same level with the iPad1. However it did not come with 3.0.4, it came with problems and the reviewers buried it. Yes I know, if it was called iTouchPad the reviews would have omitted many negative things, but that's life.
    3) The Veer. Although I don't have any love for huge screens, the thing is screens get larger and larger. You can't come out with your first HP-webOS product a tiny phone. No matter how good it is.
    4) Advertisting. The vague, scaring, artsy commercial for the Pres. I've seen some of the new iPhone4S ads. They advertise things like cloud, which exist for years. Who cares. They do it in a way where someone that doesn't know will be fascinated. The only decent ads for HP-Palm were the last ones for the TP that actually showed what the TP could do.
    5) Sticking only to the slider format. I LOVE this format, I love the physical keyboard. However I'm in the minority. They should have made more phones.
    6) Killing the TP and webOS so soon. I mean, what did they expect? To be number 1? All this nonsense about marathons and then just quitting?

    I can't comment on any of the webKit and programming things from the original article because I'm not an expert on these things. It seems that some mistakes were made in those areas too. However, I strongly disagree with the NYT article in calling webOS a slow, buggy, laggy OS. At least not in 2.x. Problems exist, but the UI experience is excellent. An app opening one second later than in iOS is not the biggest problem of webOS.

    Just my two cents on the subject. Sorry for the length of the post.
    Rnp likes this.
  17. #157  
    Quote Originally Posted by kalel33 View Post
    I wish you would have put a "seriously" or "JK" after that question to know if you were sincerely asking, because Apple did not create the MP3 player.....far from it. I'm going to answer this as serious: Cowen, Creative, Samsung, Sandisk, iRiver, Sony, and Microsoft. Not to mention all the cheap players that were around. The Ipods were ranked in the lower category of audio quality and the Itunes songs were more compressed than other competitors. The battery didn't last more than 2 years, so you always had to buy a new one(I had two Ipad Nanos). The click dial was excellent but everything else you could find better. I bought the Nanos because I wanted an MP3 player for running that I could get an armband for.

    When I did electronics, I talked many people out of buying an Ipod and buying a Creative Zen, which was a better MP3 player. I never seen one come back returned. What I did see was people that wanted Apple, told how much better another player was, they agreed, but went with Apple anyways.......because it's Apple. Duh! It's like the video that the Best Buy employee did about the ignorant customers he talked to on a daily basis.

    Let's look at the negatives that the MP3 players had back then that the original
    iPod solved when it was released...

    - Flash memory-based players of the era held only about a CD's worth of songs.

    - Hard drive players held far more, but were relatively big, heavy, and they
    sported difficult-to-navigate user interfaces that did not scale well when
    scrolling though thousands of songs.

    - Most portable media players (PMPs) used the pokey USB 1.1 standard to transfer
    music from a host computer to the player, which made the user wait up to five
    minutes to transfer a CD's worth of songs. When moving thousands of songs, the
    transfer time could shoot up to several hours.

    The original iPod solved all of the above problems with a small 1.8" hard drive
    that could hold thousands of songs. A click wheel interface that allowed you to
    navigate through 1000s of songs easily. A firewire interface that was fast
    enough to fill your iPod with 1000s of songs in a reasonable amount of time. In
    addition the iPod was simple to use, very portable and had a long battery life.
    Also, a simple way to get music on the iPod through iTunes and to create
    playlists and burn CDs.

    So, what MP3 player back then offered all of the above that the original iPod
    offered when it was released?
    It amazes me that people want to gloss over details when talking about
    something. People don't care about a bunch of features, what they care about is
    a product that is easy to use and just works.

    That's what the original iPod provided back then, that the other MP3 players of that era did not.
    mister2d likes this.
  18. #158  
    Quote Originally Posted by rnld View Post
    iOS didn't make the iPhone successful? There was nothing like iOS in the market in 2007 and I would contend that iOS was a HUGE part of the success.
    I think there is agreement here, even if the discussion bounces around a bit, that:
    1. The iPhone was missing some features at launch.
    2. Other phones/mp3 players had some features missing by the iPhone
    3. The iPhone was a great success.

    I honestly don't think it was the hardware alone (obviously), nor the software, and obviously not the app store (didn't exist).

    The iPhone was successful because the iPod was successful, and the reason the iPod did well was the music store/iTunes combo.

    Apple was behind, and made a very smart decision. They bought iTunes, locked in the record labels, and then made some good hardware.

    If people kept downloading illegal cd's, if the music labels made their own store or held out, if Napster didn't die, then I think alot of history could have changed.... Just a thought.

    But back to the article/thread - was WebOs doomed from the start, due to software design? This thread has argued/demonstrated that software alone doesn't kill/save anything.
    KA1
    Visor Deluxe->Visor Prism/Digital Link->Treo 650->Treo 700p->Pre->GSM Unlocked Pre 2 (wifi only)->FrankenPre + Touchpad 32 ->+ Touchpad 4G ATT + ATT Pre3 + 64 White Touchpad... bliss.
    k4ever and Rnp like this.
  19. #159  
    Quote Originally Posted by rnld View Post
    My point is simple. WebOS was not ready to compete and there were other devices on the market that were more mature. As someone said, you can't talk about the Model T when looking at cars today.
    When the Pre came out all 5 smartphone OSes were flawed and required trade-offs.

    In 2009:
    WebOS - hardware hungry, limited apps;has multitasking, great UI & unlocked OS
    iOS - no multitasking, locked device; has great UI and a ton of apps
    Android - somewhat hardware hungry, less than intuitive UI, sometimes unlocked; good app selection
    Symbian - Con: It's symbian. Pro: It's symbian.
    Blackberry - limited apps, no true multitasking ; very usable, long battery life
    WinMob 6 - Kludgy UI, Lots of apps, quasi-multitasking (same goes for PalmOS)


    I'd say for the next 6 months or so Palm was on the ball, with frequent OS updates that added new features or tweaked performance.

    The problems with WebOS, to a large extent, were that the hardware wasn't available to support the OS. The Pre+ should have been available on a wider basis and the Pixi- was castrated without wifi. The Pre2 should have come out no more than 1 year after the Pre-. I believe the Pre3 may have actually been a competitive device in the upper-midrange device market (it compares well to all WinPhone 7 devices), even at release, had it actually been released in bulk.

    Meanwhile every year Apple released a reasonably significant (if not earth shaking) iPhone update, a bajillion Android devices came out (some good, some crap), and WinPhone 7 came out and received decent (if not earth shaking) updates on decent (if not earth shaking) hardware.

    Of course, Symbian crashed and Blackberry is flailing for a new direction in the same timeframe.
    Last edited by kigmatzomat; 01/04/2012 at 09:38 AM. Reason: fixed typo
  20. #160  
    Quote Originally Posted by ka1 View Post
    I think there is agreement here, even if the discussion bounces around a bit, that:
    1. The iPhone was missing some features at launch.
    2. Other phones/mp3 players had some features missing by the iPhone
    3. The iPhone was a great success.

    I honestly don't think it was the hardware alone (obviously), nor the software, and obviously not the app store (didn't exist).

    The iPhone was successful because the iPod was successful, and the reason the iPod did well was the music store/iTunes combo.

    Apple was behind, and made a very smart decision. They bought iTunes, locked in the record labels, and then made some good hardware.

    If people kept downloading illegal cd's, if the music labels made their own store or held out, if Napster didn't die, then I think alot of history could have changed.... Just a thought.

    But back to the article/thread - was WebOs doomed from the start, due to software design? This thread has argued/demonstrated that software alone doesn't kill/save anything.
    Thanks! I was about to post something along similar lines. The iPhone was the updated iPod. Apple released the phone version 3 months before the stand alone version (iPod Touch). The iPhone (and iPad) is successful and remains successful because of the iPod and the iTunes infrastructure, not because it is/was a superior smartphone (tablet, in the case of the iPad).

    For the first two years of the iPhone's existence I posted comments on several tech sites and blogs asking everyone to quit calling it a smartphone. Prior to the iPhone's release the definition of a smartphone was a personal data assistant with added phone capabilities. The original iPhone lacked all of the features of a PDA (still lacks some today). It was just an iPod with phone capabilities which made it a multimedia phone. In my view, it was the best multimedia phone on the planet, not the best smartphone.
    However, I digress...

    Here is the bottom line:

    1) A mobile device is not successful because of the number of apps. As pointed out several times the iPhone was far behind the competition in app numbers when it was released. No one cared about apps at the time and the whole app count thing is an Apple market campaign that was wildly successful. Having a set number of apps is not as important as having certain apps or features available.

    2) A mobile device is not successful because of the speed of it's software or boot times (who turns their phone off and on all the time?). It helps. A few extra seconds for app launch is hardly noticed. The times just has to be close.

    3) A mobile device is not successful because of a lack of features or the addition of features that few people want. The camera on the back of the iPad 2 was not the major selling point for it. IMO it is a silly gimmick. The iPad 1 didn't have one and was highly successful without it. Not having a rear camera did not effect TouchPad sales that much. Having card view multi-tasking and wireless charging hasn't made webOS successful (but it has endured it to it's followers) either. Not too many people care about widgets or even use folders.

    I can go on and on but I will stop here. A device is successful if it has what it takes to get people to buy it (which advertising and word of mouth play a major factor) and keep buying it (which features, services, and reliability play a major factor). Everything else we argue about it just our opinions. So let's break this down:

    Pre/TouchPad

    -Poor advertising, weird advertising, or both
    -Lack of some services (streaming movie service (NetFlix) for example), but great features like card view, an excellent email client, and wireless charging which could not overcome the lack of services
    -Reliability issues with the original Pre were not quickly address by Palm for Sprint users until things got out of hand (Pre+ and Pre 2 on ATT/Verizon did not have the same issues or were handled better). HP has done an excellent job addressing the cracked speaker issue on the TouchPad and overcame the bugs of 3.0 with subsequent updates (still waiting on 3.0.5!)

    iPhone/iPad

    -Excellent advertising. Tugs at the heart and makes you believe the devices are capable of doing things they really can't (You can't use the iPhone's video chat capabilities in a combat zone because it used cellular data instead of wifi. I don't think the iOS calendar (or any calendar) can handle the 5 billion appointments Santa had in one day. There really isn't an app for everything)
    -Additional features like a compass, capacitive touchscreen, and proximity sensor added much needed functionality to the cell phone market. Those features plus services like iTunes (movies, music, and eventually apps) were enough to overcome the glaring missing features that ever other smartphone possessed at the time and actually created a new definition for smartphones and a new market (non-business types buying smart phones)
    -Reliability issues were quickly addressed with software updates (for bugs) and Apple stores replace defective devices that are under warranty without much friction. These devices still have defects (they are actually made by the same manufactures that make the Pre and TouchPad), but Apple does an excellent job at addressing them. Except for the antenna issue with the iPhone 4...(telling people you are holding it wrong was the dumbest thing I ever heard Steve Job's say)
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