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  1. #121  
    Quote Originally Posted by rnld View Post
    My point is simple. WebOS was not ready to compete and there were other devices on the market that were more mature. As someone said, you can't talk about the Model T when looking at cars today.
    That has always happened. A few years ago nobody was able to defy PocketPC dominance, after that, was Blackberry, later the iPhone, now it seems Android is the beast.

    And someone will come and destroy that dominance.
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  2. #122  


    No. You're just wrong and your story does not relate to the point that i was responding to nor does it relate to the point made by the person whose comment i responded to, RNLD. His comment was "compare the current WebOS to something another company had 3 or 4 years ago." That is about comment about TIME it is not about purpose.

    I made a point about comparing current standards to older standards. I was comparing what is adequate in one year with what is adequate in a prior year. I was talking about time. You on the other had compare what is adequate for one task regardless of time period with what is adequate for a different task regardless of time. You are talking about the purpose of product, your case an SUV. To be specific, the purpose of towing with a truck vs the purpose of driving faster and mileage in a car. That is not the situation the poster i was responding to was talking about which again was the argument about what is adequate for a phone in one time vs "3 or 4 years ago."

    He/she was talking about the excuse offered that what webos did at launch in 2009 was adequate, that the flaws identified particularly lag or speed was not an issue, because in some prior year android, ios, blackberry had a similar problem. He was not argueing that lag or speed issues were like buying an SUV to tow vs buying car, that is a tool for a specific job. Lag in a phone did not serve some special desired purpose that set it apart like towing capacity does a truck vs buying a tuner or family car.

    And not only that you hurt your own arguement when you clearly state "It may not be important to the rest of you." Well that's the entire point. It doesn't matter what you as a single individual want. This is a discussion about why the products made by palm and hp were unsuccessful with the masses. That it satisfies you but isn't important "to the rest" is not enlightening. "The rest" are who you need to have a successful product. The rest are who you need to appeal to. It's not about you, me, or any one individual's niche wants like your need to tow stuff. Most people don't buy vehicles just to tow boats. But you firmly fail to understand the point being made and your story is merely an unrelated scenario.

    In modern smartphone market you can't have a product that lags worse then the competition, lacks the big apps the competition has and people really want, and has worse design then the competition, and has problematic build quality when compared to the competition and then justify it by saying "well a few years back the competition had the same problem we have now." It's not a few years back. It's now. The consumer compares the product you put on the shelve now to what's next to it not what was on the shelf a few years back.
    I just re-read my post and realised I left off the apology for going off on a tangent when I edited the last paragraph. I apologize for the omission. He/she touched on speed. I wanted to point out that others like the OS for more than just speed and that does not seem to be respected around here. I would like to see the entire webOS platform (hardware and software) grow to suit everyone's needs while retaining the stuff that suits mine.

    I understand where he/she was coming from. However, there are a lot of product that come out with features that are ahead of their time, while lacking features that others have had for years. The iPhone is a shining example of that. That point seems to be missed a lot. The iPhone was missing a lot of things.

    What saved the iPhone was not the software, it was the hardware. Having a 4 inch capacitive touchscreen, a built in compass, proximity sensor, and a simple elegant slab design made up for the problems with the software. The software for the iPhone did not catch up to others until 2 years later and with respects to webOS, it still has not caught up on some things which were the basis of my analogy. Right when webOS phone hardware was getting good, HP pulled the rug out from under it.

    Hardware matters more than software does. The major complaint I got from folks with the Pre was not the software or apps. They didn't get that far. They did not like the slider design and the smaller screen.

    BTW, I live by the ocean were there is a lot of leisure fishing and people do buy vehicles just to tow boats.


    ---Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities (a great webOS app!)
  3. #123  
    Quote Originally Posted by deCorvett View Post
    That has always happened. A few years ago nobody was able to defy PocketPC dominance, after that, was Blackberry, later the iPhone, now it seems Android is the beast.

    And someone will come and destroy that dominance.
    Exactly. And some will fail to catch on for whatever reason, like the Touchpad.

    Android OS is offered on numerous brands, where iOS and Blackberry are coupled with hardware.
  4. #124  
    What features did other phones have that the iPhone did not have in 2007?
  5. #125  
    Quote Originally Posted by rnld View Post
    What features did other phones have that the iPhone did not have in 2007?
    A ton of them. Starting with 3G, following with apps, a functional bluetooth, multitasking, ... nobody feared the iPhone because there was no reason. But Mac and iPod fans started lining to buy it, and from that everything is now history.
    Last edited by deCorvett; 01/03/2012 at 06:37 PM.
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  6. #126  
    Quote Originally Posted by deCorvett View Post
    A ton of them. Starting with 3G, following with apps, a functional bluetooth, multitasking, ...
    Who had these features on their phones in 2007?
  7. #127  
    Quote Originally Posted by rnld View Post
    Who had these features on their phones in 2007?
    A heavy bunch of Nokias, every Windows Mobile device, the Blackberries, and tons of creepy Symbian based feature phones from several brands...
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  8. #128  
    Quote Originally Posted by deCorvett View Post
    A heavy bunch of Nokias, every Windows Mobile device, the Blackberries, and tons of creepy Symbian based feature phones from several brands...
    Yet none of them had the overall experience of the iPhone. But this is also why business did not embrace the iPhone for quite some time.
  9. #129  
    Quote Originally Posted by rnld View Post
    Let's be clear - I don't own an Android or an iOS device. I own a small WebOS device. My wife has a first generation iOS device that only recently have I been spending time checking out.

    My point is simple. WebOS was not ready to compete and there were other devices on the market that were more mature. As someone said, you can't talk about the Model T when looking at cars today.

    So what exactly is your point about the model T? I don't think anyone is saying that after two years of neglect webOS is better than a mobile OS that has been through 3 iterations in the meanwhile... by the way not even able to run on some of the older hardware the earlier version ran on two years ago especially Android phones - I learned that the hard (read expensive ) way.

    So was it the hardware that wasn't ready to compete, the organization that wasn't ready to compete, or the OS. ( I notice that in your sentence you tie webOS on one side to devices on the other... a Freudian slip?)

    Consensus can be wrong, but almost everyone who has used webOS complains about the hardware and a lack of applications as the problems they could not overcome. Or why independent developers like Rod, Sconix, and Jason could make it run better than the manufacturer could (and that is a failure of management).

    C
    "Sometimes I feel like an OS-less child..."
    (with apologies to Billie Holiday )
  10. #130  
    Let me qualify my experience as a smartphone user:

    I own an Android, Blackberry and webOS device. (perk of the job) The one I use for reading e-mail is EASILY the Pre plus.

    I have an upgrade available to me right now. I'm not using it , but am leaning toward a Pre2. I thought about going with ICS but I like a physical keyboard and don't want a 4 plus inch device in my pocket. (BTW - My Droid occasionally reboot at random, and also loses applications from it desktop for no good reason)

    I'm all about business and don't use my phone to watch videos or movie trailers or any of that stuff. I may read a document, but have never in all of my years (multiple PalmOS models and Blackberry models) felt compelled to compose a document on my phone... and every phone I've had back to old Windows mobile has had some type of doc editing.

    I value my privacy too much to post my life on Facebook or Twitter so don't need any of those programs. All of my friends can easily get ahold of me. If I feel inclined to check something out, I'm able to access a computer throughout most of the day, or have enough impulse control to wait until I get home. (Though I can get those for the Pre)

    I play some games, mostly puzzles, scrabble type games and a little "Angry Birds". I have no desire to have songs identified for me by my phone, I don't like talking to my phone in public - it is even more obnoxious to bystanders than the person who talks to someone via Bluetooth. (Sorry, Siri - I don't love you)

    I manage a 3 'action-packed' calendars and 4 e-mail account on my Pre and it does it better than my Android or my Blackberry.

    I had a specialized reference library added to my Pre and it is slightly slow but not all all unbearably so (over 100 GB of thousand of discreet articles) but the same would have been exceedingly difficult to do on either the Android or the Blackberry.

    I have lots of 'cutesy' programs on my Android that I've used only once and don't really actually use. (U-Stream video player, A 'Star Trek' tricorder, the 'star finder' astronomy program, NSF Shift, etc).

    The hardware is OK (I know I may have gotten lucky compared to some) though I would have been happier with something with the Pre3 specs. The software is good thanks to the Internals guys, though getting long in the tooth with no substantial development for near 2 years now. Now the software is more of an issue, but two year ago the gap was much slimmer with the Pre better in some areas and the other better in others.

    The upshot is, I'm pretty happy with what I have and it's been working great for me and I do put my phone through it's paces.
    "Sometimes I feel like an OS-less child..."
    (with apologies to Billie Holiday )
  11. #131  
    Quote Originally Posted by C-Note View Post
    So what exactly is your point about the model T? I don't think anyone is saying that after two years of neglect webOS is better than a mobile OS that has been through 3 iterations in the meanwhile...
    The Touchpad featured a neglected OS upon release?
  12. #132  
    Quote Originally Posted by rnld View Post
    Exactly. And some will fail to catch on for whatever reason, like the Touchpad.
    The point of the discussion is just that ... "for whatever reason". You believe that your opinion is the ultimate answer and others have a different view.

    As long as we don't start stooping to insulting peoples intelligence, it's a good conversation.

    However, I'm not sure that just saying "it failed" provides any proof as to why it failed or if anything could have led to a different outcome.
    "Sometimes I feel like an OS-less child..."
    (with apologies to Billie Holiday )
  13. #133  
    webOS 3.0 is, from a developer perspective, EnyoOS 1.0. From that standpoint, it's a first version (again) of webOS. Too many things changed.
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  14. #134  
    When someone talks about the iPhone release and what it didn't have, it must be recognized that there was nothing like the iPhone in the marketplace. It was blazing a trail.

    Buy the time the Pre was released, people had a choice between the iPhone, an Android phone or a Pre - not counting a Blackberry.

    The day the Pre was released it was competing against phones on the market at that time, not earlier version of the phones.
  15. #135  
    Quote Originally Posted by C-Note View Post
    The point of the discussion is just that ... "for whatever reason". You believe that your opinion is the ultimate answer and others have a different view.

    As long as we don't start stooping to insulting peoples intelligence, it's a good conversation.

    However, I'm not sure that just saying "it failed" provides any proof as to why it failed or if anything could have led to a different outcome.
    Where have I said that my opinion is the ultimate answer?
  16. #136  
    Quote Originally Posted by rnld View Post
    The Touchpad featured a neglected OS upon release?
    To a large degree, yes.

    HP moved away the promise of one OS for all devices. There had been a long hiatus of no major releases, while the competition (except RIM) were making major improvements.

    Because of the hardware snafus, the newer version of the OS was not really available to many users. Remember - webOS v. 2 on all devices... on second thought.... only on newer devices. Devices which they could never get out on time.

    Compromises were made to meet deadlines necessitating the deletion of some of the distinctive swiping functions that distinguished the OS. Developer toolkits were released way late because of the internal issues at HP.... especially after telling developers they would need to move from Mojo to Enyo for development.

    In the meanwhile Google and Apple had multiple major releases of hardware and software. The hardware was significant, because the enhanced OS needed better hardware to run as did webOS, but the webOS hardware was nowhere to be seen, and there was no continuum of product on which to build a better OS.
    Last edited by C-Note; 01/03/2012 at 08:32 PM.
    "Sometimes I feel like an OS-less child..."
    (with apologies to Billie Holiday )
  17. #137  
    I had my pre as my main phone for 2 years. No cracks. No issue with the slider. I'm a heavy business user too. I prefer a slider as my long nails work well with a keyboard. Difficult to see what I'm doing with a small virtual keyboard.
    Siobhán

    Palm III, Treo 600/650/680/750, Pre, Pre3, AT&T Pre3, tp 4G, tp 64GB.

    I am an HP Employee. I am not associated in anyway with the development of webOS or associated devices. Opinions expressed in this post are my own and do not in any way represent HP or Palm in any official manner. Any implications derived from my posts are the result of my own point of view and do not indicate any intention or evidence of past, present or future activity or plans of the aforementioned HP or Palm.
  18. #138  
    Sad to hear but very interesting at the same time. It really backs up what a lot of us were thinking though the years.

    Selling my Palm things: just make an offer: http://forums.webosnation.com/market...nd-offers.html
  19. #139  
    Quote Originally Posted by rnld View Post
    When someone talks about the iPhone release and what it didn't have, it must be recognized that there was nothing like the iPhone in the marketplace. It was blazing a trail.

    Buy the time the Pre was released, people had a choice between the iPhone, an Android phone or a Pre - not counting a Blackberry.

    The day the Pre was released it was competing against phones on the market at that time, not earlier version of the phones.
    You are not correct. By the time the Pre was released, the Android phones were not yet near a major player. (look it up - probably less than a 3% share of the market)

    But unlike the Pre, Google continued to improve the OS and vendors improved the phones. That was the difference. The early market for non iPhones was the "Anything but Apple" crowd because none of them were very good in comparison.

    C
    "Sometimes I feel like an OS-less child..."
    (with apologies to Billie Holiday )
    treodoc755 likes this.
  20. #140  
    Quote Originally Posted by rnld View Post
    Where have I said that my opinion is the ultimate answer?
    Don't meant that as an insult. Sorry if it came off that way. But when anyone debate a position, by nature they feel their idea is better than the other guys, that goes for all of us, especially if they hold to the same position without wavering throughout the discussion.

    I did note that this exchange has mercifully not descended into name calling and that includes your responses too.

    Peace

    C
    "Sometimes I feel like an OS-less child..."
    (with apologies to Billie Holiday )
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