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  1. #101  
    Many of the above comments make the point. Most all OS have issues out of the gate, but technical problems are easier to fix than management problems. Technical issues are easier to compensate for that poor management.

    It's why the early iterations of the Android with the very funky activeSync setup (a big deal on a smartphone) was able to be overlooked, or why an iPhone without cut and paste or the ability to run two apps at the same time was not a deal breaker.

    The feeling with those companies was that it would get better. Palm started out that way but the ongoing hardware issues and continual delays left customers feeling that the Palm (and later the HP) issues would never improve enough for user to realize whatever promise was there.
    "Sometimes I feel like an OS-less child..."
    (with apologies to Billie Holiday )
  2. #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by SnotBoogie View Post
    It's like releasing a car in 2012 that only goes 45 mph. Then when the buyers on the lot complain that i only goes 45 mph the salesman says, "But when Ford made the Model T it only went 45 mph."
    No, this reminds me of an argument I had with an obnoxious co-worker of mine. We both liked to tune import cars. I planned on buying a boat and needed a vehicle that could haul it. My wife wanted some more cargo space. We ended up getting rid of my tuner and buying an SUV that had 8 seats and could tow 7800lbs.

    Problem was, like all other SUVs it was slow and guzzled gas. My co-worker began spouting off about how his car was faster and required less gas to go the same distance. He could also get a ton of aftermarket accessories that made it go faster and get even better gas mileage. Only thing I could get for the truck to improve performance was a high flow air filter. He forgot one important thing: his car couldn't pull a boat.

    I think to myself after reading the comments here that webOS is the SUV/truck, iOS/Android is the car, and multi-tasking is the load I need to pull. We all know that most of iOS/Android's speed comes from the fact that they don't pull a heavy load and weren't designed to do so. That load is important to me and my work and iOS/Android just can't handle it. It may not be important to the rest of you and I respect that as long as you respect what I need also. I really hope webOS gets faster for the sake of the platform, just like I hope one day SUV/trucks will get equal gas mileage to cars (they really don't need to be faster), as long as HP doesn't change how it handles the load.
  3. #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by C-Note View Post

    It's why the early iterations of the Android with the very funky activeSync setup (a big deal on a smartphone) was able to be overlooked, or why an iPhone without cut and paste or the ability to run two apps at the same time was not a deal breaker.
    When the Pre was introduced, iOS had copy and paste. Android was on 1.5 with most issues sorted out.

    WebOS was late and buggy.
  4. #104  
    I want to comment on some hardware relate issues that popped up in this thread that people fail to understand. The iPhone is a slab phone. The Pre is a slider. Slab phones don't have moving parts like sliders and sliders are thicker to accommodate the moving parts. When you have parts that move constantly over time they become loose and need to be tightened or worse, they break.

    It is dishonest to compare a slider phone to a slab phone in the areas of thickness or whether or not the mechanism would become loose. You can only compare slider phones to other slider phones in those areas.

    I move from an HTC Tilt to the Pre. The slider on the Tilt had the same issues (Oreo effect) as the one on the Pre. I had to tighten it up ever now and then, so I was fully prepared for the problems with the Pre. I can say that the slider on the Pre moved better than the Tilt and the Pre weighed less than the Tilt.

    I'm not making up excuses for Palm. I always though they should have released a slab and a more powerful, yet slightly bigger Pixi type phone also. However, folks should realise what they are getting into when they buy a slider and not try to compare it to a slab.
    treodoc755 and Artichoke like this.
  5. #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    I want to comment on some hardware relate issues that popped up in this thread that people fail to understand. The iPhone is a slab phone. The Pre is a slider. Slab phones don't have moving parts like sliders and sliders are thicker to accommodate the moving parts. When you have parts that move constantly over time they become loose and need to be tightened or worse, they break.

    It is dishonest to compare a slider phone to a slab phone in the areas of thickness or whether or not the mechanism would become loose. You can only compare slider phones to other slider phones in those areas.

    I move from an HTC Tilt to the Pre. The slider on the Tilt had the same issues (Oreo effect) as the one on the Pre. I had to tighten it up ever now and then, so I was fully prepared for the problems with the Pre. I can say that the slider on the Pre moved better than the Tilt and the Pre weighed less than the Tilt.

    I'm not making up excuses for Palm. I always though they should have released a slab and a more powerful, yet slightly bigger Pixi type phone also. However, folks should realise what they are getting into when they buy a slider and not try to compare it to a slab.
    The Pre slider may have been better than the Tilt, but it was pretty bad. And the screen? Look at it too hard, and it will crack. My first Pre minus lasted 11 months, and I thought everyone was doing something crazy to break theirs, but then I went through 4 in a few months...

    There are some real rugged sliders out there, much better than the Pre minus (the Pre 2 and Veer and Pre 3, for example ;-> ). My wife's Blackberry slider has taken a huge beating. All the edges are chipped. I've witnessed her dropping it at least 3 times. And it works great.
    KA1
    Visor Deluxe->Visor Prism/Digital Link->Treo 650->Treo 700p->Pre->GSM Unlocked Pre 2 (wifi only)->FrankenPre + Touchpad 32 ->+ Touchpad 4G ATT + ATT Pre3 + 64 White Touchpad... bliss.
  6. #106  
    hello don_falcone,
    you are so boring :-)
    of course I wouldn't see people programming an ABS or ESP function based on webkit but, we are speaking about a consumer product and about a way of writng an OS pointing to the future, about writing somethings new!
    the experiment could fail? I'm with you!
    Mr. Apoteker didn't understand what he was buyng? I'm with you!
    but I find WebOS is such a pretty thing and I'm glad I can supprt it.
    What can be said at all can be said clearly, and what we cannot talk about we must pass over in silence.
  7. #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    No, this reminds me of an argument I had with an obnoxious co-worker of mine. We both liked to tune import cars. I planned on buying a boat and needed a vehicle that could haul it. My wife wanted some more cargo space. We ended up getting rid of my tuner and buying an SUV that had 8 seats and could tow 7800lbs.

    Problem was, like all other SUVs it was slow and guzzled gas. My co-worker began spouting off about how his car was faster and required less gas to go the same distance. He could also get a ton of aftermarket accessories that made it go faster and get even better gas mileage. Only thing I could get for the truck to improve performance was a high flow air filter. He forgot one important thing: his car couldn't pull a boat.

    I think to myself after reading the comments here that webOS is the SUV/truck, iOS/Android is the car, and multi-tasking is the load I need to pull. We all know that most of iOS/Android's speed comes from the fact that they don't pull a heavy load and weren't designed to do so. That load is important to me and my work and iOS/Android just can't handle it. It may not be important to the rest of you and I respect that as long as you respect what I need also. I really hope webOS gets faster for the sake of the platform, just like I hope one day SUV/trucks will get equal gas mileage to cars (they really don't need to be faster), as long as HP doesn't change how it handles the load.
    No. You're just wrong and your story does not relate to the point that i was responding to nor does it relate to the point made by the person whose comment i responded to, RNLD. His comment was "compare the current WebOS to something another company had 3 or 4 years ago." That is about comment about TIME it is not about purpose.

    I made a point about comparing current standards to older standards. I was comparing what is adequate in one year with what is adequate in a prior year. I was talking about time. You on the other had compare what is adequate for one task regardless of time period with what is adequate for a different task regardless of time. You are talking about the purpose of product, your case an SUV. To be specific, the purpose of towing with a truck vs the purpose of driving faster and mileage in a car. That is not the situation the poster i was responding to was talking about which again was the argument about what is adequate for a phone in one time vs "3 or 4 years ago."

    He/she was talking about the excuse offered that what webos did at launch in 2009 was adequate, that the flaws identified particularly lag or speed was not an issue, because in some prior year android, ios, blackberry had a similar problem. He was not argueing that lag or speed issues were like buying an SUV to tow vs buying car, that is a tool for a specific job. Lag in a phone did not serve some special desired purpose that set it apart like towing capacity does a truck vs buying a tuner or family car.

    And not only that you hurt your own arguement when you clearly state "It may not be important to the rest of you." Well that's the entire point. It doesn't matter what you as a single individual want. This is a discussion about why the products made by palm and hp were unsuccessful with the masses. That it satisfies you but isn't important "to the rest" is not enlightening. "The rest" are who you need to have a successful product. The rest are who you need to appeal to. It's not about you, me, or any one individual's niche wants like your need to tow stuff. Most people don't buy vehicles just to tow boats. But you firmly fail to understand the point being made and your story is merely an unrelated scenario.

    In modern smartphone market you can't have a product that lags worse then the competition, lacks the big apps the competition has and people really want, and has worse design then the competition, and has problematic build quality when compared to the competition and then justify it by saying "well a few years back the competition had the same problem we have now." It's not a few years back. It's now. The consumer compares the product you put on the shelve now to what's next to it not what was on the shelf a few years back.
    You come at the king. You best not miss.
  8. #108  
    When the Pre was introduced, iOS had copy and paste. Android was on 1.5 with most issues sorted out.

    WebOS was late and buggy.
    Ok, now you are changing history. The Pre was released on June 6, 2009. It had copy on paste when it was released on day one, with webOS 1.0.

    http://cnettv.cnet.com/palm-pre-cut-...-50073675.html

    The iPhone did not get copy and paste until June 17, 2009 when Apple released iOS 3.0, a full 2 years (minus a week and 1/2) after the iPhone was initially released.

    http://www.macworld.com/article/1616...ting_text.html
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOS_version_history

    So the Pre was already ahead of the iPhone on that feature when the Pre launched, but then again every smartphone on the planet was ahead of the iPhone on that subject. It took Apple two years to add a feature to the iPhone that just about ever smartphone of that era had at conception. So who was behind again?

    The Android statement is subjective.


    ---Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities (a great webOS app!)
    cobrakon and circadia like this.
  9. #109  
    Windows phone seven didn't have cut-and-paste and that was after all those other phones. 2011. I just wrote that response using Siri boy that was cool

    Windows Phone 7 Won't Get Cut-and-Paste Ability Until Next Year - John Paczkowski - Mobile - AllThingsD


    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    Ok, now you are changing history. The Pre was released on June 6, 2009. It had copy on paste when it was released on day one, with webOS 1.0.

    Videos - Free video downloads and streaming video - CNET TV

    The iPhone did not get copy and paste until June 17, 2009 when Apple released iOS 3.0, a full 2 years (minus a week and 1/2) after the iPhone was initially released.

    How to copy and paste text in iOS | Macworld
    iOS version history - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    So the Pre was already ahead of the iPhone on that feature when the Pre launched, but then again every smartphone on the planet was ahead of the iPhone on that subject. It took Apple two years to add a feature to the iPhone that just about ever smartphone of that era had at conception. So who was behind again?

    The Android statement is subjective.


    ---Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities (a great webOS app!)
  10. #110  
    Hang on here -

    This wasn't about copy and paste - It was about a feature iOS didn't have for 2 years. Copy and paste was brought up by another poster. The reality is that iOS was in the marketplace for over a year before Android and 2 years before WebOS.

    WebOS having copy and paste a few days before iOS was not something that set it apart.

    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    Ok, now you are changing history. The Pre was released on June 6, 2009. It had copy on paste when it was released on day one, with webOS 1.0.

    Videos - Free video downloads and streaming video - CNET TV

    The iPhone did not get copy and paste until June 17, 2009 when Apple released iOS 3.0, a full 2 years (minus a week and 1/2) after the iPhone was initially released.

    How to copy and paste text in iOS | Macworld
    iOS version history - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    So the Pre was already ahead of the iPhone on that feature when the Pre launched, but then again every smartphone on the planet was ahead of the iPhone on that subject. It took Apple two years to add a feature to the iPhone that just about ever smartphone of that era had at conception. So who was behind again?

    The Android statement is subjective.


    ---Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities (a great webOS app!)
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    #111  
    This thread is fun. I would like to see other major main stream media write more webOS failure stories. Its nice to know the opinions of insiders.
    donm527 and treodoc755 like this.
  12. #112  
    Windows phone seven didn't have cut-and-paste and that was after all those other phones. 2011. I just wrote that response using Siri boy that was cool

    Windows Phone 7 Won't Get Cut-and-Paste Ability Until Next Year - John Paczkowski - Mobile - AllThingsD
    Windows Phone was not released until late October 2010, way after the date in the discussion (Pre's release date). Windows Mobile 6 was around at the time of the Pre's release and it definitely had cut and paste. It also had multi-tasking. When Windows Phone came out it was widely panned for not having cut and paste. I guess Microsoft thought that if Apple can get away with it for 2 years, why can't we?


    ---Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities (a great webOS app!)
  13. #113  
    Copy and paste or the lack of it did not stop the success of the iPhone.
  14. #114  
    The Pre slider may have been better than the Tilt, but it was pretty bad. And the screen? Look at it too hard, and it will crack. My first Pre minus lasted 11 months, and I thought everyone was doing something crazy to break theirs, but then I went through 4 in a few months...

    There are some real rugged sliders out there, much better than the Pre minus (the Pre 2 and Veer and Pre 3, for example ;-> ). My wife's Blackberry slider has taken a huge beating. All the edges are chipped. I've witnessed her dropping it at least 3 times. And it works great.
    My screen never cracked and I dropped it too many times to mention. I did have a crack by the USB port on the first Pre I bought, but I caught it before I got out the store. My slider started oreoing after about 6 months. I was able to use the tricks in theses forums to tighten it. My wife's Pre never had a problem until about a year and a half after owning it she dropped it while running full speed out of the gym and it flew about 20 feet and broke in half. Believe it or not she bought a Blackberry flip phone to replace it.

    I have no problem with people comparing the phone to other sliders on the market. There are some better and some worst. The Pre was definitely not the worst. I do have a problem with the comparisons to phones that are obviously not sliders.


    ---Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities (a great webOS app!)
  15. #115  
    This article is silly.

    In time, you will see that WebOS was right about the web-based OS metaphor. It was NOT doomed from the start because of this, it is the exact opposite, it should have been highly regarded as being innovative. It is the architecture that the entire world is shifting to as we speak. Cloud, SaaS, Virtualization. You people are ridiculous for declaring that an entirely innovative architecture which is directly line with current trends in the techno space is a doom and gloom scenario.

    Idiotic.

    And, for the record, I have programmed in the following languages:
    C, C++, JAVA, C#, VBVBVB, $PERL$, $PHP$, $PYTHON$, $Ruby$, $Rails$, $etc$...

    I can even throw out PowerBuilder, DB4, FoxPro, Pascal, Delphi, and a lot of other crap that is useless.

    I have worked with pretty much any JAVA server and database you can think of.

    C/C++ is looked upon as a dinosaur in the real world, I am sorry to say it, as much as we C/C++ programmers love to assert our awesomeness because we understand *pointers. The entire world is shifting to the web paradigm. Just because we understand how to write our own client/server socket systems, the rest of the world has shifted to SOAP wrapped XML WebServices and RESTful interfaces. There are some notable exceptions, but, mostly everything can be done with higher level languages nowadays.

    And for the record, when Apple stole the GUI concept from Xerox and created the graphical OS metaphor, that was slow, had no apps, etc... they are not looked back on historically as being stupid but rather the inovators of modern technology.
  16. #116  
    Perhaps each retailer or carrier should be encouraged to set up a "special needs" category of smartphone for devices that are hampered by sliders, removable batteries, lack of funds for marketing, recent acquisition, arrived late to the game, are shipping with software that is really beta, etc. That would make the competitive environment more fair and promote consumer understanding.

    Even a small sign that said "Please be aware that this smartphone has a slider. It will be thicker and will break more often due to the moving parts."
    I agree with your second paragraph because it is tangible. Your first one doesn't have anything to do with the second. What does removable batteries, lack of funds, or software have to do with sliders? I also make it a habit to point out in each of my post that Palm and HP should have made slab phones also. They are not as complicated as sliders, are easier to make, and cheaper to produce. The only successful slider I know of is the Motorola Droid and even it started having mechanical issues. Not too many people like the form factor. However, every major cell phone maker with the exception of Apple has at least one slider in their line-up for the people that do.


    ---Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities (a great webOS app!)
  17. #117  
    whoa, there... i dont think we are saying web-based os is not the future or that it's ultimately doomed... we are talking about webos in general here.

    maybe webos is ahead of its time in os design... but doomed if you can't get it to perform in the here and now. come on, that's the truth.

    like tony starks father... he saw the future of power... but if he couldnt get it done in his time he knew it would be doomed to try... so he hid it in a disney world type map for his son to accomplish in the future.

    but someday... web-based os potential.. its power!!... its greatness!!... may be realized!!... but not by palm and not sure if it's gonna say webos on it webos is that map for some other schmuck in the future maybe!!

    we've seen many ideas that may have come out ahead of its time and laughed at... but someday those who laugh, laugh last...






    Quote Originally Posted by LizardWiz View Post
    This article is silly.

    In time, you will see that WebOS was right about the web-based OS metaphor. It was NOT doomed from the start because of this, it is the exact opposite, it should have been highly regarded as being innovative. It is the architecture that the entire world is shifting to as we speak. Cloud, SaaS, Virtualization. You people are ridiculous for declaring that an entirely innovative architecture which is directly line with current trends in the techno space is a doom and gloom scenario.

    Idiotic.

    And, for the record, I have programmed in the following languages:
    C, C++, JAVA, C#, VBVBVB, $PERL$, $PHP$, $PYTHON$, $Ruby$, $Rails$, $etc$...

    I can even throw out PowerBuilder, DB4, FoxPro, Pascal, Delphi, and a lot of other crap that is useless.

    I have worked with pretty much any JAVA server and database you can think of.

    C/C++ is looked upon as a dinosaur in the real world, I am sorry to say it, as much as we C/C++ programmers love to assert our awesomeness because we understand *pointers. The entire world is shifting to the web paradigm. Just because we understand how to write our own client/server socket systems, the rest of the world has shifted to SOAP wrapped XML WebServices and RESTful interfaces. There are some notable exceptions, but, mostly everything can be done with higher level languages nowadays.

    And for the record, when Apple stole the GUI concept from Xerox and created the graphical OS metaphor, that was slow, had no apps, etc... they are not looked back on historically as being stupid but rather the inovators of modern technology.
    Last edited by donm527; 01/03/2012 at 05:45 PM.
  18. #118  
    This article is silly.

    In time, you will see that WebOS was right about the web-based OS metaphor. It was NOT doomed from the start because of this, it is the exact opposite, it should have been highly regarded as being innovative. It is the architecture that the entire world is shifting to as we speak. Cloud, SaaS, Virtualization. You people are ridiculous for declaring that an entirely innovative architecture which is directly line with current trends in the techno space is a doom and gloom scenario.

    Idiotic.

    And, for the record, I have programmed in the following languages:
    C, C++, JAVA, C#, VBVBVB, $PERL$, $PHP$, $PYTHON$, $Ruby$, $Rails$, $etc$...

    I can even throw out PowerBuilder, DB4, FoxPro, Pascal, Delphi, and a lot of other crap that is useless.

    I have worked with pretty much any JAVA server and database you can think of.

    C/C++ is looked upon as a dinosaur in the real world, I am sorry to say it, as much as we C/C++ programmers love to assert our awesomeness because we understand *pointers. The entire world is shifting to the web paradigm. Just because we understand how to write our own client/server socket systems, the rest of the world has shifted to SOAP wrapped XML WebServices and RESTful interfaces. There are some notable exceptions, but, mostly everything can be done with higher level languages nowadays.

    And for the record, when Apple stole the GUI concept from Xerox and created the graphical OS metaphor, that was slow, had no apps, etc... they are not looked back on historically as being stupid but rather the inovators of modern technology.
    I love your post. I'm seriously thinking about moving into towards programing for my next career move. I thought C would be a good start, but after reading your post I don't know if I will be wasting my time. Please PM me with your thoughts or suggestions on where to start.

    I'm glad HP decided to open source webOS. I think as long as there is no pressure to make money for a while most of the speed issues will get fixed. I remember when Netscape lost the browser war to Internet Explorer, everyone said that Netscape the browser was done. The company folded but they released the browser's source code to the world under the Mozilla project which eventually led to Firefox; the first browser to truly take a chunk of market share away from IE. I remember when Mozilla added browser extensions/add-ons. They were slow and buggy at the time and were panned by some reviewers as gimmicks. For a while they weren't even seen as marketable features. Wow, I remember defending my favorite add-ons to the IE crowd. Can you imagine a modern desktop browser without extensions/add-ons today?


    ---Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities (a great webOS app!)
  19. #119  
    Quote Originally Posted by rnld View Post
    When the Pre was introduced, iOS had copy and paste. Android was on 1.5 with most issues sorted out.

    WebOS was late and buggy.
    But not when it (iOS) came out. And Android did not START with version 1.5. And I've had early versions of Android and seen the early iPhone and there were definitely compromise that a user had to live with.

    My point is (which you are making for me) that people will buy a technology on it's promise as long as you ultimately deliver. Palm and HP did not. That, was the proverbial 'final nail in the coffin' - once they lost too much in the way of consumer confidence, there was no way to easily return.

    People (even such as yourself) are willing to make compromises on technology as long as believe in the promise of a company to deliver long term. (Multiple activsync accounts, anyone?)

    Funny how people will denigrate the priorities of one person in choosing a product while justifying their own.

    Just to illustrate the point, leave webOS out of the conversation... now, which is better iOS or Android? Is there an absolute 'right' answer?
    "Sometimes I feel like an OS-less child..."
    (with apologies to Billie Holiday )
    donm527 likes this.
  20. #120  
    Let's be clear - I don't own an Android or an iOS device. I own a small WebOS device. My wife has a first generation iOS device that only recently have I been spending time checking out.

    My point is simple. WebOS was not ready to compete and there were other devices on the market that were more mature. As someone said, you can't talk about the Model T when looking at cars today.

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