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  1. #81  
    the speed issues of a web-based UI I think are really a moot point in the coming years as we look at the big picture. I think the vision they had was correct, just bad execution/management as the article(s) state.

    Imagine 30 years ago, the DOS guys were probably saying the same thing about this next-gen product called windows based on a Graphical UI. Yeah it will never be as fast as dos. And where's DOS now?

    IMO the single biggest failure point - lack of mainstream apps.
    Last edited by cyberprashant; 01/03/2012 at 11:51 AM.
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  2. #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by inertia1 View Post
    This article gives one the impression that webOS is deeply flawed at its core and was cobbled together. The basic flaws in the original deign made every subsequent step challenging. It's something we saw all along as each new feature took longer than it should have and was often buggy. It makes a valid point that Ruby was a hardware guy and didn't really comprehend the software problems.

    This is not a fixable problem if the design was flawed from day one. It certainly isn't fixable as an open source project. If this is what the tech sector thinks about webOS then it's pretty much doomed.
    How long is webkit taking in the boot up process? When Android was first introduced it took just as long as webOS to boot up. I think this was/is a Linux specific issue. Older Linux desktop distributions took just a long. Newer distributions using a parallel boot scheme can cold boot to the log in screen in 30 seconds to 1 minute:

    Boot Linux faster

    After that you have the normal Luna start-up, which is about a minute. So unless the webkit service start-up is adding a ton of time to the boot process, simply switching to a parallel boot scheme could greatly speed up the boot process. That is a fixable issue.

    From my understanding, webOS is using an outdated version of webkit at its core. Newer versions of webkit are faster. So unless there are compatibility issues with apps, updating webkit would speed up the system also. Another fixable issue.

    Finally, the Javascript engine for webOS is a pig. If you turn it off, you will see a vast improvement in the time it takes for webpages to load in the TouchPad's browser. There was a thread about it here with load times with Javascript turned on and turned off. Changing the Javascript engine to a faster one would greatly improve the speed of the browser. The Javascript engine and webkit go hand in hand so when webkit is updated it should come with an updated and faster Javascript engine. Another fixable issue.

    I also posted a suggestion in another thread about some app loading tricks that would make the system seem faster. I shot these suggestion to HP in twitter. Some of the apps in webOS load just as fast as apps in iOS. The reason why the apps seems to load faster in iOS is that the iOS app immediately goes to full screen as it is loading. The same app in webOS will go into card view first and will not go to full screen until it is completely loaded and ready to go. Both apps are ready to go at the same time, but because the iOS app goes to full screen first, it gives the illusion of running faster. This is kind of like the old splash screen trick. The only time you really need to go into card view is when switching apps. So my suggestion to HP remove the card view animation and have the app go to full screen as it is loading. Similar to iOS. Save card view for app switching only. Another fixable issue.

    I can almost guarantee you when the source code from webOS hits the open source community, Linux hackers will make some of these changes immediately.
  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by CGK View Post
    I love this quote: don't read one article and think that it can't be done
  4. cgk
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    #84  
    Since people have raised it - have we had any indication off HP, even broadly, when WebOS will be open sourced?
  5. #85  
    It's interesting that people will compare the current WebOS to something another company had 3 or 4 years ago.

    WebOS is in competition with today and tomorrow, not the past
  6. #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by jrstinkfish View Post
    I find it odd that people here seem to think there was some sort of organized campaign to ruin webOS, as if it was ever a threat to other mobile OS's. WebOS failed due to actions by those who were supposed to be helping it succeed, not because Google, iOS, or their users feared it. The only reason there are even articles being written about its failure now is because it failed, with people offering theories on why a promising OS sputtered in the marketplace.

    You can find limitless articles out there slamming iOS and Android, mostly the same type of FUD you say was spread about webOS, yet they are both successful beyond belief because people want to use them. webOS, as pretty and sometimes elegant as it was, could never capture the public's imagination, so it could never really succeed.
    While I agree Palm & HP execs screwed the proverbial pooch big time (many times) are you actually saying that 9/10 Pre+ buyers weren't pushed to droid all over the US?? Huh??
  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by rnld View Post
    It's interesting that people will compare the current WebOS to something another company had 3 or 4 years ago.

    WebOS is in competition with today and tomorrow, not the past
    i think this is partially because the article was about the past, and how it was doomed from the start...

    And I think many on both sides start mentally changing the past: 3 or 4 years ago... 4 years ago, no Apple App store (launched July 2008). 3.5 years ago, Apple launches 3g and app store, with 500 apps (PalmOS had an ecosystem of 20,000 apps at that point for their decaying platform). And as others pointed out, the 3g hardware in many ways was similar to the Pre minus. Another problem is that while Apple was way ahead in some areas, areas where Palm never caught up, in other areas they were behind (and still are).

    But getting back to the article and root of the discussion, while iOS and WebOS are both based on WebKit, Apple does indeed have some modifications to webkit, some improvements, that never made it back into webkit, so in some ways the article is correct, WebOS was doomed to never be as fast as IOS. But speed isn't everything (ask all the Apple folks who buy Macs that are slower than comparably priced PC's...).

    In my if-only fantasies, I think of what could have been if HP/Palm had optimized WebOS/webkit, and if they had built/paid for the top 10 apps in each area to be ready at launch...
    KA1
    Visor Deluxe->Visor Prism/Digital Link->Treo 650->Treo 700p->Pre->GSM Unlocked Pre 2 (wifi only)->FrankenPre + Touchpad 32 ->+ Touchpad 4G ATT + ATT Pre3 + 64 White Touchpad... bliss.
  8. #88  
    Actually, I really don't think webos is in competition today... Because HP is not officially manufacturing any or selling any... And there is nothing definite for a tomorrow... Just hope.

    There is really no competition... Just of what was, *** happened, what-ifs, what is left, and what hope.

    Quote Originally Posted by rnld View Post
    WebOS is in competition with today and tomorrow, not the past
  9. #89  
    In 2008 there were only 500 apps in the app store, in 3 days there were 10 million downloads and in 8 weeks there were 55 million downloads and 3,000 apps.

    When the Pre was launched in June 2009, there were 50,000 iOS apps and a billion downloads.
  10. #90  
    My point exactly... What was...

    Quote Originally Posted by rnld View Post
    In 2008 there were only 500 apps in the app store, in 3 days there were 10 million downloads and in 8 weeks there were 55 million downloads and 3,000 apps.

    When the Pre was launched in June 2009, there were 50,000 iOS apps and a billion downloads.
  11. #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by cobrakon View Post
    While I agree Palm & HP execs screwed the proverbial pooch big time (many times) are you actually saying that 9/10 Pre+ buyers weren't pushed to droid all over the US?? Huh??
    What we have is anecdotal evidence of people going to stores, asking for a webOS phone, and then being directed towards an Android phone. If you want to believe that's why those phones tanked, so be it. I think it was more that people just weren't interested in it because everyone else had Android phones or iPhones. Why would they buy a webOS phone when everyone they know has an iPhone or Android?
  12. #92  
    Much like most of the debates around here, all will tend to take from the article what already confirms their pre-exisiting beliefs.

    Hate webOS (or feel burned by them)
    and see I knew it was doomed. (It would be more interesting to hear from outside developers on that score and not from an exec - I know how they can speak on things without really having a clue.)

    Love webOS - and you will key in on the management blunders which were obvious and plentiful.

    Also factor in the hardware that it was released on, the delays in released due to the various trials and the truth (as usual) lies somewhere in between. How much of the ex-employees comments are CYA statements? Everyone coming out of this debacle is blaming someone else. I'll more likely believe the person who fesses up to what THEY did wrong before they start dishing on everyone else.
    Last edited by C-Note; 01/03/2012 at 03:04 PM.
    "Sometimes I feel like an OS-less child..."
    (with apologies to Billie Holiday )
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  13. #93  
    Well in the beginning there was only sprint selling pres... And sprint didn't have iPhone.

    That being said, I think sprint was excited to get pre and sell it...

    But the hardware sucked... I mean think if it as a phone seller... You don't want to sell/recommend a phone when you have people bringing it back and having to exchange so many of them... You don't want to see these people come back and yell at you. I think it was a real issue along with sw issues... I mean look at the survey and the numbers posted about pre exchanges.... And the media picked up on it like Jim Cramer and blasted palm.

    Like said before, palm should have moved on the build issues quick. They paid a price for it.

    Windows mobile is in the underdog position and you don't hear the same lame excuses of 9/10 people pushing people away from windows to android.

    Quote Originally Posted by jrstinkfish View Post
    What we have is anecdotal evidence of people going to stores, asking for a webOS phone, and then being directed towards an Android phone. If you want to believe that's why those phones tanked, so be it. I think it was more that people just weren't interested in it because everyone else had Android phones or iPhones. Why would they buy a webOS phone when everyone they know has an iPhone or Android?
  14. #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by donm527 View Post
    My point exactly... What was...
    Which area was WebOS ahead?
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by rnld View Post
    It's interesting that people will compare the current WebOS to something another company had 3 or 4 years ago.

    WebOS is in competition with today and tomorrow, not the past
    It's like releasing a car in 2012 that only goes 45 mph. Then when the buyers on the lot complain that i only goes 45 mph the salesman says, "But when Ford made the Model T it only went 45 mph."
    You come at the king. You best not miss.
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  16. #96  
    Prettier gui with the swipes/cards? Synergy?

    Quote Originally Posted by rnld View Post
    Which area was WebOS ahead?
    Last edited by donm527; 01/03/2012 at 02:29 PM.
  17. #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by rnld View Post
    Which area was WebOS ahead?
    Well, there's multitasking (vs. iOS in 2009), task switching/managing (vs. Android), notifications, and support for a multitude of internet services via synergy (yes, iOS and Android had synergy-esque features but not across as many 3rd party services or as tightly integrated).

    Those, plus the flexibility & hackability that comes from being CSS/javascript/HTML based, are why I love WebOS.

    Having said that, WebOS required more hardware for similar performance due to the overhead of the GUI (aka webkit) and the multitasking. Plus, WebOS exposed less hardware to developers, which seriously limited several categories of apps.

    And lets not forget that they threw out a huge chunk of the PIM support. That was a huge screwup in my opinion as Palm owned the consumer PIM appliance market. PIM may not have been as important as evident by the declining PDA market, but it could have been the gateway drug for a lot of PalmOS users that had Centros and Treos. Failure to support categories in calendars or a desktop synch app was like cutting off their right hand.

    My wife almost went back to her Centro b/c of how much she relied on categories to cope with being a manager of two store locations.
  18. #98  
    I actually did go back to my Treo 755P after having the Pre upon launch.

    The claims of synergy, etc were not worth the step down (to me) in the calendar, contacts, syncing and stability.

    I am now using a Pixi as a temporary phone and even understanding the slowness of the Pixi itself, I find WebOS still to be a terrible user interface.

    Everyone has their own likes and dislikes
  19. #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by inertia1 View Post
    Safari, the iOS browser is webkit-based, however, iOS apps are not based on webkit. They are created with compiled code in Objective C using Xcode, the same development environment as OSX. This will always be faster.
    From my understanding there are both web based and C based apps for each platform. I don't think web site replacement apps in iOS are compile in Objective C and PDK apps on webOS are not based on WebKit. Also, C based apps in iOS can be coded for webOS in 4 days.
  20. #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by donm527 View Post
    To add... The events that happened at palm could have still gone the same way... But when HP bought palm and Webos and ruby was still tasked to run it, he could have had a better chance to push back launching the touchpad and pre3 (their true flagship phone and not the stupid little veer... Or push a SLAB PHONE!)... For the good of Webos. People here may have hated the wait but seeing Nokia and bb implode in the end it would have been a brilliant move.

    Maybe ruby knew that was the proper course but didn't have the balls to force it... Then it's still his fault and he shouldn't have been running the show... HP figured that part out too late.
    you bring up interesting points on Ruby, about a reluctance to delay the launch and basically not having the balls to do it. For the record i'm not sure delay would have helped a ton. they needed a finished perfect product to launch in Feb in my opinion.

    But my opinion is not the point. Those two points raised about ruby were touched on in the Job's autobiography and seem to shed light on his, possibly flawed, mindset.

    From Steve Jobs Autobiography, Chapter 35 "Memento Mori" don't know exact page. i have the ebook. so pages changed depending on font size.

    Avie is a brilliant guy and a nice guy, much more grounded than Ruby and doesn’t carry the big ego,” said Jobs. “It was a huge loss for us when Avie left. He’s a one-of-a-kind person—a genius.”
    Rubinstein’s case was a little more contentious. He was upset by Cook’s ascendency and frazzled after working for nine years under Jobs. Their shouting matches became more frequent. There was also a substantive issue: Rubinstein was repeatedly clashing with Jony Ive, who used to work for him and now reported directly to Jobs. Ive was always pushing the envelope with designs that dazzled but were difficult to engineer. It was Rubinstein’s job to get the hardware built in a practical way, so he often balked. He was by nature cautious. “In the end, Ruby’s from HP,” said Jobs. “And he never delved deep, he wasn’t aggressive.
    There was, for example, the case of the screws that held the handles on the Power Mac G4. Ive decided that they should have a certain polish and shape. But Rubinstein thought that would be “astronomically” costly and delay the project for weeks, so he vetoed the idea. His job was to deliver products, which meant making trade-offs. Ive viewed that approach as inimical to innovation, so he would go both above him to Jobs and also around him to the midlevel engineers. “Ruby would say, ‘You can’t do this, it will delay,’ and I would say, ‘I think we can,’” Ive recalled. “And I would know, because I had worked behind his back with the product teams.” In this and other cases, Jobs came down on Ive’s side.
    At times Ive and Rubinstein got into arguments that almost led to blows. Finally Ive told Jobs, “It’s him or me.” Jobs chose Ive. By that point Rubinstein was ready to leave. He and his wife had bought property in Mexico, and he wanted time off to build a home there. He eventually went to work for Palm, which was trying to match Apple’s iPhone. Jobs was so furious that Palm was hiring some of his former employees that he complained to Bono, who was a cofounder of a private equity group, led by the former Apple CFO Fred Anderson, that had bought a controlling stake in Palm. Bono sent Jobs a note back saying, “You should chill out about this. This is like the Beatles ringing up because Herman and the Hermits have taken one of their road crew.” Jobs later admitted that he had overreacted. “The fact that they completely failed salves that wound,” he said.

    From what i see there is a man that is very cautious design wise. He's not a risk taker. Seems that when he was at apple he clashed when he wanted to sacrifice product design for expediency. He was a guy from microchips and hardware trying to be "practical." As it said he was "HP" which i think means he's corporate trying to be "reasonable" and they were not and were idealistic (always funny considering how big and Corporate Apple is). He would sacrifice the product in order to deliver on time. Maybe Palm products got pushed before they were ready just like he wanted when he was at apple. He doesn't strike me as the sort of person that sets the bar enormously high and demands nothing less then excellence. He strikes me as the sort that would tell Michael Jordan he's shoots too much, talks too much trash, and should have just done layups rather those impractical wild dunks.


    I don't have an opinion as to whether "it's ruby's fault" for the demise. But some of the things you mention seem to be an ongoing thing with Ruby.
    Last edited by SnotBoogie; 01/03/2012 at 03:06 PM.
    You come at the king. You best not miss.
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