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  1. #401  
    I have heard that Apple was doing everything they could to stop WebOS, from persuading Facebook to drop their app to pressuring other vendors to not release Touchpad apps. Steve Jobs was passionate about his company and was not afraid to engage with other companies and tell them what they should do.

    I doubt that HP management engaged with the same passion or pressure that Jobs did, causing issues both internally and externally.

    Take all the stuff in the many pages above and roll it into one and you have the reason it did not take off. I personally think that it would have had a fair chance if HP had more passion in the managers involved and if it was priced ~$200 below iPad, at least until it was v2 or v3.

    ... and the last thing that confused the market, was it for business or consumer? They are different enough markets that you really need to decide which you want to play in...
  2. #402  
    Quote Originally Posted by donm527 View Post
    HP had the money... with the right management... that had the right plan... they could have made it work. you ask take webos out of the equation and it was another os... like meego?... i think webos would have been number 3 if dont right because their is something with the gui that got peoples attention...
    Funny you should say that. I really suspect that Apple will pick up most of the defecting Blackberry fans for that very reason. Blackberry users as whole seem to prefer the Apple GUI over the Android one. So as much as it is dismissed, a compelling GUI, all else being close to equal would be an influencing factor.

    At my place (the job I don't have - ha ha) the technical types leaving the BB world splits about 65% to 35% to Android. The sales and management types tend to go about 70% to 30% to the iPhone.

    So a nice visual OS with decent hardware would have a good chance to grow. Let's see if Duarte's ICS can be compelling enough to capture peoples fancy. Doubt if it will be webOS, but just has to be better that the hodgepodge of overlays and skins that is now.

    (lets see if the Android fans start calling me an ***** now too)

    Just calling them as I see them.

    C
    "Sometimes I feel like an OS-less child..."
    (with apologies to Billie Holiday )
  3. cgk
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    #403  
    Except from the previews I have seen, most companies will be skinning and putting overlays on ICS so I am not sure what has changed?

    Sent from my Lumia 800 using Board Express
  4. #404  
    Quote Originally Posted by CGK View Post
    Except from the previews I have seen, most companies will be skinning and putting overlays on ICS so I am not sure what has changed?

    Sent from my Lumia 800 using Board Express
    Ugh! It's cool if the user chooses to add that stuff.... but not if you are stuck with it. Do you get a choice to strip it off, or do you have to root it or buy a different brand of phone to get away from a certain overlay??
    "Sometimes I feel like an OS-less child..."
    (with apologies to Billie Holiday )
  5. cgk
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    #405  
    If it follows the normal pattern you would need to root it or buy a google experience phone or oddly a cheaper phone from a marginal player.

    Sent from my Lumia 800 using Board Express
  6. #406  
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye-08 View Post
    I have heard that Apple was doing everything they could to stop WebOS, from persuading Facebook to drop their app to pressuring other vendors to not release Touchpad apps. Steve Jobs was passionate about his company and was not afraid to engage with other companies and tell them what they should do.

    I doubt that HP management engaged with the same passion or pressure that Jobs did... causing issues both internally and externally.
    I heard about the Facebook thing, do you have links on the others? But I suspect that sort of 'Inside Baseball' stuff goes on throughout the industry. As long as the anti-trust or monopoly line isn't crossed, it is all legal even if it is somewhat sleazy.

    Like everything else, it's all about the money. If a phone maker can't show partners how they will profit by sticking with them, they can never get traction.

    C
    "Sometimes I feel like an OS-less child..."
    (with apologies to Billie Holiday )
  7. #407  
    Quote Originally Posted by laserboy View Post
    can you say bubble? Do you really believe apple is worth $400/share? Or are they a fad. I do not believe apple's value even remotely approaches Exxon.
    You are entitled to believe whatever you want. Do your beliefs hold any weight on Wall Street? Beliefs are best left for places of worship.
  8. #408  
    The proof question was in regard to what is shown immediately below, which appears to indicate that Android users do not pay for apps as often as webos users do. Your post above is comparing app revenue between Android and IOS.Quote: [SIZE]Originally Posted by k4ever Click to view quoted image

    [I][SIZE]snip...
    1) Android users don't pay for apps as much as webOS and Apple users do. I'm not talking price, I'm talking frequency. Developers like to get paid and Android is not paying out as much as others do. ...snip

    Me: [I]Is there proof of this claim?

    To be more clear, is there proof of this claim between Android and Webos?


    Not sure this was ever in one of my post. However, it all depends on how each was used in it's context. For example, Android handsets have a higher handset count and lower app count than iOS. Regarding marketshare, Android is eating into Apple. So what? Each just needs to make enough profit to be viable to continue on with the product.
    You negated my statement for webOS in your original post by down playing the statement from 10tons in regards to webOS app purchases. Since 10tons is the only multi-platform developer that I know of so far to come forward and make a statement about app purchases, I have nothing else to go on. So I posted the Android vs iOS story to cover the second part of my statement.

    As far as market share and revenue go, there seems to be a have your cake and eat it to attitude in these forums between Android and iOS fans. If we are talking about market share, iOS fans will state profits. If we are talking about profits, Android fans will state market share. The goal post seems to get moved in order to make one side look or feel better and us webOS fans get caught in the middle. It gets frustrating because we are clearly talking to folks from one side, then the other side butts in. Funny thing is that this is a webOS fan site and not an Android or iOS fan site. Some people here conveniently forget that.


    ---Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities (a great webOS app!)
  9. #409  
    can you say bubble? Do you really believe apple is worth $400/share? Or are they a fad. I do not believe apple's value even remotely approaches Exxon.
    J.P. Morgan (the person, not the corporation) had a famous statement about the stock market. I can't find right it now but needless to say he wasn't impressed by it one bit. It doesn't really matter if Apple is actually worth $400 a share. What matters is if the people buying the stock believe Apple's stock is worth $400 and analyst support that belief. Stock prices seem to be based on past performance and future potential.


    ---Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities (a great webOS app!)
  10. #410  
    Quote Originally Posted by C-Note View Post
    Ugh! It's cool if the user chooses to add that stuff.... but not if you are stuck with it. Do you get a choice to strip it off, or do you have to root it or buy a different brand of phone to get away from a certain overlay??
    I don't think most users care if there is a custom skin over their Android. In the case of Sense, I'd say most users actually like it. It's very well done. Stock pre-ICS Android is pretty ugly, I'd say HTC was doing users a favor. And until we see what they do with ICS, it's too early to condemn them.

    But if you don't want it, just install one of the 3rd-party launchers (Go Launcher, ADW, LauncherPro, etc. ..) from the Market, and there ya go.

    Edit: Apparently you can go under Applications and clear Sense from loading by default, Force Stop, and you'll have stock Android for the launcher. Not sure if the same can be done for the others, but it should.
    Last edited by jrstinkfish; 01/09/2012 at 07:13 PM.
  11. #411  
    Lets move away from the snipefest and get back on target.

    The original discussions centered on if or not the Touchpad was doomed from inception. The conversations seems to move to the question of if or not it was to OS, the hardware, or the management which did the most damage.

    I'm kind of leaning toward management, but am willing to be convinced otherwise. Here is another (hopefully less passion arousing) way of looking at the subject.

    Take webOS out of the picture and put another mobile OS in it's place. It is OK to say, put iOS in the hands of the Palm/HP management team. For the sake of the discussion, let say it is the best mobile OS, hands down, ever put on a phone. (If you can't choke that down, substitute you OS of choice)


    If the same decisions were made, (hardware quality, form factors, release dates, developer tool availability, advertising choice, marketing focus - or lack thereof)... would they have been any more successful?

    Opinions are welcome, but please keep it civil, or just go away.
    Excellent question. If we substituted iOS for webOS in your scenario, the TouchPad would have been an even bigger flop than it is now. Imagine iOS without it's vast portfolio of apps. That alone would make it worthless. Then webOS fans who were in the dominate position would rip it apart for it's cheesy attempt at multi-tasking and horrible notification system. The iOS fans defending it would say it's faster, but webOS fans would say that it was because it lacked real multi-tasking overhead. Kind of like saying your empty truck is faster than another truck that is clearly carrying a full load. The extra hour in battery life that the iOS has would have been poo pooed also and not seen as a good enough sacrifice for not being able to have more than one app on the screen at the same time.

    With Android it would depend on which version showed up. Gingerbread and Honeycomb would have met the same fate as iOS for pretty much the same reasons. ICS would have garnered some respect with the facial recognition portion of the system, but the rest of the OS would have been as gimmicky and not streamlined.

    We can throw a bunch of different scenarios out there, but I think the one thing we can agree on is that you can't come to the market late with a product, compete with the market leader in it's own segment, lack the full support and infrastructure of the market leader, and try to beat the market leader at it's own game. If you don't change the dynamics of the game and play to your own strengths instead of playing to someone else, you are going to lose. HP should have aimed the product squarely at the business space, which is their strength, and supported the product long enough to work out the issues it had at launch. They should have also realised that something like this take time and money to develop fully.

    I have a few busy weeks ahead of me, so my time here will be scarce. Fill free to respectfully chew on my statement but don't expect a quick response. Good luck to everyone!

    ---Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities (a great webOS app!)
  12. #412  
    I don't think most users care if there is a custom skin over their Android. In the case of Sense, I'd say most users actually like it. It's very well done. Stock pre-ICS Android is pretty ugly, I'd say HTC was doing users a favor. And until we see what they do with ICS, it's too early to condemn them.

    But if you don't want it, just install one of the 3rd-party launchers (Go Launcher, ADW, LauncherPro, etc. ..) from the Market, and there ya go.

    Edit: Apparently you can go under Applications and clear Sense from loading by default, Force Stop, and you'll have stock Android for the launcher. Not sure if the same can be done for the others, but it should.
    If it wasn't for the those custom skins I don't think most consumers would use Android. The Nexus line for Android purest has not sold well despite all the hype. Most Android users go with Samsung (TouchWiz), HTC (Sense UI (my favorite)), or Motorola (Motoblur) because of the UIs. Default Android (lower than 3.x) is **** ugly.


    ---Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities (a great webOS app!)
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    #413  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    J.P. Morgan (the person, not the corporation) had a famous statement about the stock market. I can't find right it now but needless to say he wasn't impressed by it one bit. It doesn't really matter if Apple is actually worth $400 a share. What matters is if the people buying the stock believe Apple's stock is worth $400 and analyst support that belief. Stock prices seem to be based on past performance and future potential.


    ---Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities (a great webOS app!)
    and I'm pretty certain people were saying the same thing for the internet bubble and the real estate bubble
  14. #414  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post

    We can throw a bunch of different scenarios out there, but I think the one thing we can agree on is that you can't come to the market late with a product, compete with the market leader in it's own segment, lack the full support and infrastructure of the market leader, and try to beat the market leader at it's own game. If you don't change the dynamics of the game and play to your own strengths instead of playing to someone else, you are going to lose. HP should have aimed the product squarely at the business space, which is their strength, and supported the product long enough to work out the issues it had at launch. They should have also realised that something like this take time and money to develop fully.

    I have a few busy weeks ahead of me, so my time here will be scarce. Fill free to respectfully chew on my statement but don't expect a quick response. Good luck to everyone!

    ---Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities (a great webOS app!)
    I totally agree, except I'd rather they had come late and strong rather than 'on time' and hobbled with much discussed deficiencies. In any endeavor, come with your "A" game, play to your strength - and if you lose, so be it.

    I'm watching people flee from RIM devices like rats from a sinking ship. If HP had considered a 'business ready' campaign, and then put up the goods to back it up, I don't think it would have made them #1 plus or any of that stuff, but it would have given them a solid toehold.

    Expecting to outrace everyone to market prominence while spending less money and on a shorter development schedule is just nuts.

    Check in when you can.

    C
    Last edited by C-Note; 01/10/2012 at 03:35 PM. Reason: typo
    "Sometimes I feel like an OS-less child..."
    (with apologies to Billie Holiday )
  15. laserboy's Avatar
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    #415  
    Quote Originally Posted by sinsin07 View Post
    You are entitled to believe whatever you want. Do your beliefs hold any weight on Wall Street? Beliefs are best left for places of worship.
    true.

    but wall street has proven they are sheep and followers which is how we get to todays situations. So your statement about wall street is also flawed. Is there real value in apple or is there smoke and mirrors?
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    #416  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    If it wasn't for the those custom skins I don't think most consumers would use Android. The Nexus line for Android purest has not sold well despite all the hype. Most Android users go with Samsung (TouchWiz), HTC (Sense UI (my favorite)), or Motorola (Motoblur) because of the UIs. Default Android (lower than 3.x) is **** ugly.


    ---Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities (a great webOS app!)
    Honestly, I don't think the manufacturer skin overlays on Android play much of a role in Android smartphones' overall popularity:

    *People who want physical keyboards aren't buying iPhones
    *People on a budget aren't buying iPhones
    *People who want a good web-browsing experience aren't buying Blackberries
    *People who want good hardware aren't buying Palm/HP webOS smartphones

    All 4 of those things are important to many people, particularly the last 3 items. I think when most people looked at the options available, Android was the best choice (well at least by early 2010).

    As for Nexus sales, 1) you are comparing one device per year against dozens of other Android devices and 2) from what I've heard carriers (or at least Verizon sales reps) try to downplay the Nexus relative to other Android smartphones. I'll add that the general smartphone buyer doesn't understand the difference between an Android Nexus smartphone and other Android smartphones.


    Other notable devices:
    Windows laptops: Asus VivoBook X202E (Windows 8), HP Pavilion g4-1215dx (Windows 7)
    Chromebooks: Samsung Chromebook XE303
  17. #417  
    wow, was just checking out this link and video going back in time of steve jobs unveiling the iphone...

    geez if you wanna know why people lined up for it... a good reason i think is because of the man... jobs just sold it but you can tell it was his life. he's funny too at some points. and honestly looking back... i do kinda think it was years ahead. seriously when you see him flick thru the ui... was there another that was as close in performance?

    http://www.imore.com/2012/01/09/5-ye...nvented-phone/

    you wanna see a contrast in ceos, watch the video of monkey boy ballmer at ces today.

    ruby wasnt really any better... all those years working with jobs... and he didnt learn a thing. why webos was a flop... ruby.
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  18. gbp
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    #418  
    Quote Originally Posted by donm527 View Post
    wow, was just checking out this link and video going back in time of steve jobs unveiling the iphone...

    geez if you wanna know why people lined up for it... a good reason i think is because of the man... jobs just sold it but you can tell it was his life. he's funny too at some points. and honestly looking back... i do kinda think it was years ahead. seriously when you see him flick thru the ui... was there another that was as close in performance?

    http://www.imore.com/2012/01/09/5-ye...nvented-phone/

    you wanna see a contrast in ceos, watch the video of monkey boy ballmer at ces today.

    ruby wasnt really any better... all those years working with jobs... and he didnt learn a thing. why webos was a flop... ruby.
    Say what you want, webOS multitasking is even years ahead of others, it was true desktop class multitasking on a phone. Others shamelessly copied the synergy and multitasking from it. The real issue was performance and hardware.

    Ruby do not need presentation skills, he needed a bit more coaching on hardware design.
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  19. #419  
    Quote Originally Posted by laserboy View Post
    true.

    but wall street has proven they are sheep and followers which is how we get to todays situations. So your statement about wall street is also flawed. Is there real value in apple or is there smoke and mirrors?
    You offer your opinion on Wall Street, and in the greater scheme of things means little. My opinion also does not matter on Wall Street or Apples worth.
  20. #420  
    iPhone 4S inches Apple closer to Android in top market share | Apple - CNET News

    Analyzing last year's smartphone market, NPD found that iOS's share surged to 43 percent in October and November from just 26 percent in the third quarter, thanks largely to demand for the iPhone 4S. Though Google's mobile OS maintained its lead, its share dropped in October and November to 47 percent from 60 percent in the previous quarter.

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