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  1. #381  
    I read that article and came away with a different outcome. Yes, IOS apps make more money but the reason wasn't from number of apps sold, it was the time and effort that devs have to put into an Android app so that it can work across all screens, processors, and different types of Android(fragmentation of the OS itself, with different flavors). It's just much easier to build for IOS because you only have to worry about it running great on a few devices, unlike the litany of different devices with Android. What makes Android great, great selection of phones to fit everybody, is also what causes it's hard ache for devs.
    Ugh! You are right. I posted the wrong story. That was the one on Android fragmentation. I will search for the one on app sales. Here is one of the summaries:

    http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2011/11/...-7-of-iPhones/

    Here is one of the stories on the issue:

    http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2011/...es-vs-android/


    ---Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities (a great webOS app!)
  2. #382  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    Yes, there is proof that Android app revenues are less than iOS app revenues despite Android's market share. This has been covered before. It's frustrating that you folks are in a tech forum talking tech issues but you don't keep up with tech news. I suggest you guys check out engadget.com, bgr.com, cnet.com, or the tech section at news.google.com. I read these every day. Here is a link:

    Android reigns supreme, but app developers still prefer iPhone - CSMonitor.com
    The proof question was in regard to what is shown immediately below, which appears to indicate that Android users do not pay for apps as often as webos users do. Your post above is comparing app revenue between Android and IOS.Quote: Originally Posted by k4ever
    snip...
    1) Android users don't pay for apps as much as webOS and Apple users do. I'm not talking price, I'm talking frequency. Developers like to get paid and Android is not paying out as much as others do. ...snip


    Me: Is there proof of this claim?

    To be more clear, is there proof of this claim between Android and Webos?

    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    However, you guys through market share and app counts around here like they mean something also. You can't have it both ways when those numbers don't go your favorite platform's way.
    Not sure this was ever in one of my post. However, it all depends on how each was used in it's context. For example, Android handsets have a higher handset count and lower app count than iOS. Regarding marketshare, Android is eating into Apple. So what? Each just needs to make enough profit to be viable to continue on with the product.
    Last edited by sinsin07; 01/07/2012 at 11:58 PM.
  3. #383  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    I separated HP's PC market for two reasons.

    1) Even if you only count HP's PC market share, they still eclipse Apple's PC market share by a whole lot. If I would have just stuck with PC market share in general, I would have gotten a response that it was shared among multiple companies. Making it look like Apple is in a better position if you divided it out. However, Apple is not even in the top 4 unless you count iPad sales which seem to get counted as PC when it suits Apple or as mobile devices when it suits Apple. .,.snip
    Does this matter? They need to eclipse Apples profits.
    July 26 2011 As Shares Top $400, Apple Eyes The Next Tech Prize: HP’s Revenue Crown
    Key point:" In the last four quarters, HP did $11.4 billion in profit. Apple? $23.61 billion. Yes, Apple pulls in more than double the profit despite trailing in revenue."
    When you look at the picture in dollar signs, which is what marketshare is eventually going to trickle down to, it appears HP's marketshare advantage is not doing all that much for them.
    What's the ulitmate goal here? Having millions and millions of desktops (marketshare) but low profit returns, or having less desktop marketshare but make a killing in profits? Is HP in this game for the marketshare or the profits?

    More food for thought:
    Apple Now Worth As Much As Microsoft, HP And Dell … Combined
    From Forbes, July 2011: Apple Now Selling More iPads Than Macs; iOS Eclipses Dell And HP's PC Businesses
    Key point: "What’s really insane: when you look at unit sales, Apple iOS business is now bigger than HP and Dell’s PC businesses, combined."
    Apple’s Creative Destruction of Competitors
    NYT July 2011"Apple’s market value is more than 10 times Dell’s, for example, and nearly five times Hewlett-Packard’s."
    ...But they are not a marketshare leader in PCs or handsets. Are they worried? LOL

    It might be better to leave Apple out of any comparison conversations in marketshare/profit.
    Last edited by sinsin07; 01/07/2012 at 11:45 PM.
  4. cgk
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    #384  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    I've been tracking the mobile industry for 20 years. I think CGK said it best when he said that these thing go in cycles. Who is on top today doesn't necessarily translate to tomorrow. Too many have held the top spot only to see it whittle away by a better or more committed player. The top spot in the smartphone industry is like the front runner for the GOP Presidential race.


    ---Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities (a great webOS app!)
    The interesting thing about the cycles in mobility is that it seems once you go down, you don't come back up (to your former level of profitability or market share), someone replaces you and you are always a follower never a leader again. That is why I am sure (as mentioned above) both google and Apple will try and ensure that they can avoid this fate by having already having teams working on replacements for iOS and Android - even if it is only at the conceptual level.
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    #385  
    Quote Originally Posted by CGK View Post
    The interesting thing about the cycles in mobility is that it seems once you go down, you don't come back up (to your former level of profitability or market share), someone replaces you and you are always a follower never a leader again. That is why I am sure (as mentioned above) both google and Apple will try and ensure that they can avoid this fate by having already having teams working on replacements for iOS and Android - even if it is only at the conceptual level.
    The mobile phone (or more accurately, the mobile phone as a pocket computer) industry is still very young. One of the questions in my mind is whether the industry ends up following the "home computer/PC" paradigm or the "video game console" paradigm. In the former, the operating systems used have largely remained the same for years, even decades. Because of this (at least in part), the major players have been able to retain their dominant positions for extended periods of time. By contrast, in the latter (video game console paradigm), market share has shifted fairly dramatically every time a new generation of video game consoles is introduced. Also, the video game industry has typically had 3 significant players in every console generation (which IMO is part of the reason why many people think there will be 3 significant players in the mobile smartphone industry).

    To the quoted point above, if Apple or Google only makes incremental changes to their mobile OS in the future and those changes allow their devices to continue to function as high end devices without adding dramatically increased costs, then the home computer/PC paradigm is more likely to be followed. On the other hand, if Apple and/or Google need to radically change their mobile OS (i.e. it has limited backwards compatibility with earlier mobile OS), then the video game console paradigm is more likely to be followed.


    Other notable devices:
    Windows laptops: Asus VivoBook X202E (Windows 8), HP Pavilion g4-1215dx (Windows 7)
    Chromebooks: Samsung Chromebook XE303
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  6. cgk
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    #386  
    I don't disagree with any of that, I think the problem is that neither player can tell at this stage which way it will go - so I think they have to be working on their insurance policies (just in case).
  7. #387  
    Quote Originally Posted by C-Note View Post
    To your comments however let me respond, please read my comments carefully. Despite Apple partisans wigging out, I'm not says Apple is doomed or that Apple should close up shop. However, when there is another technology that begins to take market share it is always a threat.

    Very few keep a phone for more than a few years anyway. This is why they are all fighting to get people in the their respective "ecosystems". Once a person stays with a specific OS for a time, it is less likely that they will cross over into a new system. So if I have an iPhone 3, more than likely I will move into an iPhone 4 than a Blackberry or Windows phone.

    That is why it not JUST about profit, but it's also about percentage of market share.

    If a user can be lured into an HTC or LG Android based phone, what will they most likely do when they find out a feature doesn't work on their old phone? If I find out that Siri doesn't work on my iPhone 3, what is the chance that I will go to an Android phone in response? I just go and buy a new iPhone.

    That is part of the dilemma that I was posting about. If HTC or LG goes bankrupt, or pulls an HP and quits the business, where will those displaced users go? They will just make the remaining Android handset manufacturers stronger as they migrate to Motorola or Samsung.

    And it is hard to imagine that the profit number stay the same as the unit sales change. As you correctly stated, the unit sales of most every maker includes lower profit margin smartphones. That skews the units to profits ratio in Apples favor. But as the product mix of those makers becomes more smartphone heavy, those percentages are bound to change.

    Also, is Apple the only maker selling into the Asian market? Hard to imagine all of the Asian maker taking that lying down. Especially if protectionist sentiments kick in, as all nations are prone to fall to especially in hard times.
    Quote Originally Posted by finngirl View Post
    And you *don't* think you're in the business of making predictions? LOL

    Since reading comprehension seems to be selective, I've highlighted the pertinent sections of my comments. I'm looking a possibilities based on trends. That Android is currently growing more rapidly than Apple in the smartphone space is not a prediction, it is a fact. If things continue as they are currently, Apple does face a threat.

    Don't think I said Apple is doomed (read above... AGAIN). Merely that they cannot continue with business as usual and expect the same results. The fact the Apple now sells from more outlets and has expanded the price range of available offerings is also a fact.

    You (if you are an Apple-ista) should be happy that they are savvy enough to realistically see what is going on adjust. Seems like they are smarter than some of their fans.

    Less LOL-ing and more reading before taking cheap shots would be beneficial.

    C
    "Sometimes I feel like an OS-less child..."
    (with apologies to Billie Holiday )
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    #388  
    Quote Originally Posted by sinsin07 View Post
    Does this matter? They need to eclipse Apples profits.
    July 26 2011 As Shares Top $400, Apple Eyes The Next Tech Prize: HP’s Revenue Crown
    Key point:" In the last four quarters, HP did $11.4 billion in profit. Apple? $23.61 billion. Yes, Apple pulls in more than double the profit despite trailing in revenue."
    When you look at the picture in dollar signs, which is what marketshare is eventually going to trickle down to, it appears HP's marketshare advantage is not doing all that much for them.
    What's the ulitmate goal here? Having millions and millions of desktops (marketshare) but low profit returns, or having less desktop marketshare but make a killing in profits? Is HP in this game for the marketshare or the profits?

    More food for thought:
    Apple Now Worth As Much As Microsoft, HP And Dell … Combined
    From Forbes, July 2011: Apple Now Selling More iPads Than Macs; iOS Eclipses Dell And HP's PC Businesses
    Key point: "What’s really insane: when you look at unit sales, Apple iOS business is now bigger than HP and Dell’s PC businesses, combined."
    Apple’s Creative Destruction of Competitors
    NYT July 2011"Apple’s market value is more than 10 times Dell’s, for example, and nearly five times Hewlett-Packard’s."
    ...But they are not a marketshare leader in PCs or handsets. Are they worried? LOL

    It might be better to leave Apple out of any comparison conversations in marketshare/profit.
    can you say bubble? Do you really believe apple is worth $400/share? Or are they a fad. I do not believe apple's value even remotely approaches Exxon.
  9. gbp
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    #389  
    Quote Originally Posted by C-Note View Post
    Since reading comprehension seems to be selective, I've highlighted the pertinent sections of my comments. I'm looking a possibilities based on trends. That Android is currently growing more rapidly than Apple in the smartphone space is not a prediction, it is a fact. If things continue as they are currently, Apple does face a threat.

    Don't think I said Apple is doomed (read above... AGAIN). Merely that they cannot continue with business as usual and expect the same results. The fact the Apple now sells from more outlets and has expanded the price range of available offerings is also a fact.

    You (if you are an Apple-ista) should be happy that they are savvy enough to realistically see what is going on adjust. Seems like they are smarter than some of their fans.

    Less LOL-ing and more reading before taking cheap shots would be beneficial.

    C
    Yes, Apple does face a threat.

    Apple never had a competition for iPod. They were minting money with iPod+iTunes for about five years. With iPhone they had a good run for three years before Android matched them. With iPad they are being challenged in two years. The fact is they are up against a formidable competitor I.e. Android, while others like Microsoft are readying for a bigger battle.
    Vertical integration is not easy, specially when a company wants to make 30% - 40% profit margin year after year.

    My prediction is that Apple’s PROFIT MARGINS will go down. Expect cheaper versions of iDevices next year.
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  10. #390  
    Quote Originally Posted by sinsin07 View Post
    The proof question was in regard to what is shown immediately below, which appears to indicate that Android users do not pay for apps as often as webos users do. Your post above is comparing app revenue between Android and IOS.Quote: Originally Posted by k4ever Click to view quoted image

    snip...
    1) Android users don't pay for apps as much as webOS and Apple users do. I'm not talking price, I'm talking frequency. Developers like to get paid and Android is not paying out as much as others do. ...snip


    Me: Is there proof of this claim?

    To be more clear, is there proof of this claim between Android and Webos?
    Thanks for that. That keeps getting thrown around here as a reason why webOS would be a viable OS for devs, but the only proof is that iOS users buy more apps than Android users. And even then, there is a slight issue -- there are more free apps for Android than there are for iOS. And most of those apps, while free, are ad-supported, meaning the devs do have a revenue stream from them. The state of Android apps is not quite as dire as some would have you believe -- I put it up there with the whole fragmentation boogeyman (while it does exist, most Android users don't even know it's a "problem") as a talking point to try to find something scary about Android's growth.
  11. #391  
    Quote Originally Posted by gbp View Post
    Yes, Apple does face a threat.

    Apple never had a competition for iPod. They were minting money with iPod+iTunes for about five years. With iPhone they had a good run for three years before Android matched them. With iPad they are being challenged in two years. The fact is they are up against a formidable competitor I.e. Android, while others like Microsoft are readying for a bigger battle.
    Vertical integration is not easy, specially when a company wants to make 30% - 40% profit margin year after year.

    My prediction is that Apple’s PROFIT MARGINS will go down. Expect cheaper versions of iDevices next year.
    Watch out with those predictions!

    (Just joking, of course)

    C-Note-stradamus (LOL)
    Last edited by C-Note; 01/09/2012 at 11:57 AM.
    "Sometimes I feel like an OS-less child..."
    (with apologies to Billie Holiday )
  12. #392  
    Lets move away from the snipefest and get back on target.

    The original discussions centered on if or not the Touchpad was doomed from inception. The conversations seems to move to the question of if or not it was to OS, the hardware, or the management which did the most damage.

    I'm kind of leaning toward management, but am willing to be convinced otherwise. Here is another (hopefully less passion arousing) way of looking at the subject.

    Take webOS out of the picture and put another mobile OS in it's place. It is OK to say, put iOS in the hands of the Palm/HP management team. For the sake of the discussion, let say it is the best mobile OS, hands down, ever put on a phone. (If you can't choke that down, substitute you OS of choice)


    If the same decisions were made, (hardware quality, form factors, release dates, developer tool availability, advertising choice, marketing focus - or lack thereof)... would they have been any more successful?

    Opinions are welcome, but please keep it civil, or just go away.
    "Sometimes I feel like an OS-less child..."
    (with apologies to Billie Holiday )
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  13. gbp
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    #393  
    Quote Originally Posted by C-Note View Post
    Watch out with those predictions!

    (Just joking, of course)

    C-Note-stradamus (LOL)
    I am confident that the margins will go down for Apple. The iPhone 3GS is sold for free on ATT. I see a (refurbished) iPad 2 being sold by Apple at $ 419.00

    In the past the refurbished ones used to be discounted once the newer version of the same gadget were available. In addition Apple used to price the newer gadgets little over the refurbished one (iPods are great example) forcing customers to buy the new one. Now its happening sooner.

    Truth to be told APPLE gets credit for selling a tablet at $ 499.00 (its cheap), but these Android OEMS are under cutting that price by close to 30%.
  14. gbp
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    #394  
    Quote Originally Posted by C-Note View Post

    Take webOS out of the picture and put another mobile OS in it's place. It is OK to say, put iOS in the hands of the Palm/HP management team. For the sake of the discussion, let say it is the best mobile OS, hands down, ever put on a phone. (If you can't choke that down, substitute you OS of choice)


    If the same decisions were made, (hardware quality, form factors, release dates, developer tool availability, advertising choice, marketing focus - or lack thereof)... would they have been any more successful?

    Opinions are welcome, but please keep it civil, or just go away.
    Excellent point.
    I will go out on a limb and say Palm would have died even with iOS or Android. They were so far behind on the Hardware. With no cash on the books they were destined to die from the get go.

    Its not the Operating System, its the money first followed by management decisions that killed the webOS devices.
  15. gbp
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    #395  
    To put simply,
    Palm had smart engineers to build the device and OS Their design was great. Their hardware was bad. Where they failed is in execution. Why ? no money.

    Sometimes having extra money is more important than having a star studded engineering team. Which is precisely the story of Microsoft Mobile OS. Here they are , a full 4 years behind the market leaders, yet they have enough in the tank for a long haul.
  16. #396  
    Quote Originally Posted by gbp View Post
    Excellent point.
    I will go out on a limb and say Palm would have died even with iOS or Android. They were so far behind on the Hardware. With no cash on the books they were destined to die from the get go.

    Its not the Operating System, its the money first followed by management decisions that killed the webOS devices.
    I tend to agree, Palm was on life support from the time the decision was made to separate the hardware and software sides into two companies. A great move for execs holding stock, but not so much for anyone else. They were so far behind they need to hit a home run with the first swing, and they didn't. With no money to reload, we were watching the closing minute of a lopsided game.

    Any OS on that hardware (a management decision), with developers tools delayed as they were, would have been in deep doo.

    But I think HP could have saved it with a few better choices. Even up to the "Think Beyond" event, many in the tech press were willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

    Supposed they would have aggressively courted Amazon and partnered to produce their color e-reader? Everyone knew that Amazon HAD to come out with something to counter the Nook.

    C
    "Sometimes I feel like an OS-less child..."
    (with apologies to Billie Holiday )
  17. #397  
    Quote Originally Posted by gbp View Post
    To put simply,
    Palm had smart engineers to build the device and OS Their design was great. Their hardware was bad. Where they failed is in execution. Why ? no money.

    Sometimes having extra money is more important than having a star studded engineering team. Which is precisely the story of Microsoft Mobile OS. Here they are , a full 4 years behind the market leaders, yet they have enough in the tank for a long haul.
    True about the money. Everyone else had a chance to take multiple swings at the ball - except maybe RIM. But if that is your reality, you've got to make that swing count. (Kirk Gibson in the 88 World Series)

    But I blame Palm for succumbing to the pressure to put 'something' out there - NOW!

    I know conventional wisdom is that if you don't get something out there, you'll fall too far behind. But lets see if that hurts the Nook, the Kindle, or the future Windows tablets (though MS may give them 'self-inflicted' wounds).

    Meet a need and people will buy - whenever it is released.
    "Sometimes I feel like an OS-less child..."
    (with apologies to Billie Holiday )
  18. gbp
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    #398  
    It looks like there are others who think the price of iPad 2 will fall

    Analyst: iPads, Kindles, GPS units to be cheaper in 2012 - CNN.com

    12 Things That Will Be Less Expensive in 2012
  19. #399  
    HP had the money... with the right management... that had the right plan... they could have made it work. you ask take webos out of the equation and it was another os... like meego?... i think webos would have been number 3 if done right because there was something with the gui that got peoples attention and people were wanting the iphone-killer... they were wanting the pac-man vs. whoever (lol i'm not a boxing fan) title fight.

    look at rimm right now at how they are promising the world with the new os... and it looks like the new os is not gonna happen when they said it would last year. BSing to the people is just killing them faster.

    ruby had an excuse with a new owner to extend things... but he did the EXACT bs show when he ran palm. and we got half **** releases... so funny how people thought 'soft launch' was a real strategy but ruby was just being an ***** releasing veer before pre or the tablet that was basically an ipad1 competitor. fricken push it back 6 months, tell leo that the wait would be worth it, get more dev support in that time and you would have been ok.

    if ruby took his time and did it right, ruby then would have been seen as a genius to slip into 3 spot with nokia out of the picture until 2012 phone, rimm imploding and no one else solid in the 3 spot. because of those circumstances... there was a chance for a company to come in against ios and android... just timing and webos was there at the time and could have caught the wave.

    and if he was smart to release a slab instead of the veer. gosh he had chances and he blew it all away.

    Quote Originally Posted by C-Note View Post
    I tend to agree, Palm was on life support from the time the decision was made to separate the hardware and software sides into two companies. A great move for execs holding stock, but not so much for anyone else. They were so far behind they need to hit a home run with the first swing, and they didn't. With no money to reload, we were watching the closing minute of a lopsided game.

    Any OS on that hardware (a management decision), with developers tools delayed as they were, would have been in deep doo.

    But I think HP could have saved it with a few better choices. Even up to the "Think Beyond" event, many in the tech press were willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

    Supposed they would have aggressively courted Amazon and partnered to produce their color e-reader? Everyone knew that Amazon HAD to come out with something to counter the Nook.

    C
    Last edited by donm527; 01/09/2012 at 03:14 PM.
  20. #400  
    People were talking about the history with the iphone, what features were avail when, etc., here is a pretty detailed article of the last 5 years of iphone and you can see a few timeline charts, etc.

    AppleInsider | Five years of iPhone
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