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H.P.ís TouchPad Tablet Was Bound to Be a Flop, Some Say
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Old 01/02/2012, 01:20 AM   #21 (permalink)
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so does this also mean the webos smartphones were bound to be flops as well?
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Old 01/02/2012, 01:44 AM   #22 (permalink)
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When Chuq comes out and says that it was 70% Palm's fault and 30% HP's, it kind of changes your perspective:

Changing of the Guard (and letting it down at the same time) @ Chuqui 3.0

Basically, what he says here is it doesn't matter what path webOS traversed down right before it was acquired by HP, it was destined for failure at that point. If HP had not acquired Palm, they likely would have ran out of money or been acquired by someone else who was out for just their patents. HP gave them the best shot they had.
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Old 01/02/2012, 01:56 AM   #23 (permalink)
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I thought Android and iOS used WebKit, too. ?
As browsers. webOS tried to develop apps around it though -- hence its name.
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Old 01/02/2012, 02:12 AM   #24 (permalink)
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so does this also mean the webos smartphones were bound to be flops as well?
The webOS concept was the amazing part. The physical phone was the worst of it from the beginning. Forget all the USB cracks on the plastic screen. Don't even look at the Oreo problems. The hardware specs were designed to nearly match a year-old phone, the iPhone 3.

But unfortunately the 3GS came out days after the Pre with a working mic API for Shazam and Voice Recording and a camera that could be focused for apps like Barcode Scanner. We kept asking if someone could make one app or another like iPhone had. No developer could even release a decent Music replacement.

The 2009 Palm Pre was to fight the 2008 iPhone 3. The 2011 Touchpad almost matched the 2010 iPad.

Palm's hardware was always trying to win the last war. They never had deep enough pockets to afford current technology.
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Old 01/02/2012, 05:17 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Maemo / Meego all over again sadly

Even with it being Open Source I can't see it ever being more than those two mentioned, I really hope not though
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Old 01/02/2012, 08:32 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by inertia1 View Post
This article gives one the impression that webOS is deeply flawed at its core and was cobbled together. The basic flaws in the original deign made every subsequent step challenging. It's something we saw all along as each new feature took longer than it should have and was often buggy. It makes a valid point that Ruby was a hardware guy and didn't really comprehend the software problems.

This is not a fixable problem if the design was flawed from day one. It certainly isn't fixable as an open source project. If this is what the tech sector thinks about webOS then it's pretty much doomed.
All I can tell you is I'm developing webOS apps just because of webOS design.

My background as a developer was a bit of .net, and that's all. I saw webOS architecture and decided to learn javascript.

webOS architecture is state-of-the-art. It's about 3 years ahead of it's time, and that's the underlying issue. Most of the technology webOS uses wasn't ready (or directly wasn't there) when webOS was unveiled.

Pick your iPads (if you have one, as I do). Open your facebook app. Open your Imdb app. Open your bank's apps. All of them ARE webapps. And the list is growing. HTML5 is the future, from what I see, nobody complains about that HTML5 apps on their iPads.

The issue was with hardware and execution. webOS is a masterpiece, and webOS team work is amazing, both because of their development and because the timing. Sure there was some stuff laking, and that didn't helped, but with good sales, all that stuff would've been solved anyways.
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Old 01/02/2012, 08:37 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by b3d0u1n View Post
As browsers. webOS tried to develop apps around it though -- hence its name.
A LOT of Android and iOS apps are simply a webView with local HTML/Javascript code running behind the scenes
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Old 01/02/2012, 09:12 AM   #28 (permalink)
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All I can tell you is I'm developing webOS apps just because of webOS design.

My background as a developer was a bit of .net, and that's all. I saw webOS architecture and decided to learn javascript.

webOS architecture is state-of-the-art. It's about 3 years ahead of it's time, and that's the underlying issue. Most of the technology webOS uses wasn't ready (or directly wasn't there) when webOS was unveiled.

Pick your iPads (if you have one, as I do). Open your facebook app. Open your Imdb app. Open your bank's apps. All of them ARE webapps. And the list is growing. HTML5 is the future, from what I see, nobody complains about that HTML5 apps on their iPads.

The issue was with hardware and execution. webOS is a masterpiece, and webOS team work is amazing, both because of their development and because the timing. Sure there was some stuff laking, and that didn't helped, but with good sales, all that stuff would've been solved anyways.
So are you saying in year or two technology will catch up and webOS will be faster, including the browser? Is that the 5 year game plan Meg is suggesting? Or does webOS somehow have to be rebuilt and HP doesn't want to spend the manpower and $$$ and may not even have the talent so they are hoping the opensource community will step up? (Chuq says that opensourcing webOS gives it a shot at revival but he does not elaborate)

If so, I am OK to wait a few years as long as I have access to a decent touch browser in linux when needed for various urls (go bodhi!)
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Old 01/02/2012, 09:22 AM   #29 (permalink)
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All I can tell you is I'm developing webOS apps just because of webOS design.

My background as a developer was a bit of .net, and that's all. I saw webOS architecture and decided to learn javascript.

webOS architecture is state-of-the-art. It's about 3 years ahead of it's time, and that's the underlying issue. Most of the technology webOS uses wasn't ready (or directly wasn't there) when webOS was unveiled.

Pick your iPads (if you have one, as I do). Open your facebook app. Open your Imdb app. Open your bank's apps. All of them ARE webapps. And the list is growing. HTML5 is the future, from what I see, nobody complains about that HTML5 apps on their iPads.

The issue was with hardware and execution. webOS is a masterpiece, and webOS team work is amazing, both because of their development and because the timing. Sure there was some stuff laking, and that didn't helped, but with good sales, all that stuff would've been solved anyways.
This explains. .NET developers are not necessarily regarded top-notch programmers. (Given what kind of technical requests my company received in the past and still receives from .NET developers, and which type requests from C++ developers in contrast, i just confirm this) Especially not if they focus on 'webby' / 'trendy' technologies. Give me a good share of seasoned C++ / Qt developers anytime for an OS and it's base application support over graduate-level code interpreted fiddlings.

It will be interesting to watch if 'Tizen' (if there's ever a release outside of industry closed-circles) will show the same type of fail as webOS, being that they hedge all their bets on HTML5 / JS.
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Old 01/02/2012, 09:49 AM   #30 (permalink)
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This explains. .NET developers are not necessarily regarded top-notch programmers. (Given what kind of technical requests my company received in the past and still receives from .NET developers, and which type requests from C++ developers in contrast, i just confirm this) Especially not if they focus on 'webby' / 'trendy' technologies.
NO. That explains my background as a developer. Just that. There are awesome .Net devs, the same as there are awesome Java devs, and C++ devs. There are also a lot of bad devs on every language. Each language has it's pros, cons, and challenges, and a "where to put that pointer" type of questions are impossible to be asked on some languages, just because that language doesn't has access to that kind of stuff (or isn't necessary, because it's handled by the language/compiler itself). That's all.

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Give me a good share of seasoned C++ / Qt developers anytime for an OS and it's base application support over graduate-level code interpreted fiddlings.
Yeah, ask that WSJ, Facebook, or every other company that has moved their apps from native Cocoa/Dalvik to HTML5.
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Old 01/02/2012, 09:57 AM   #31 (permalink)
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So are you saying in year or two technology will catch up and webOS will be faster, including the browser? Is that the 5 year game plan Meg is suggesting? Or does webOS somehow have to be rebuilt and HP doesn't want to spend the manpower and $$$ and may not even have the talent so they are hoping the opensource community will step up? (Chuq says that opensourcing webOS gives it a shot at revival but he does not elaborate)

If so, I am OK to wait a few years as long as I have access to a decent touch browser in linux when needed for various urls (go bodhi!)
There are several issues with webOS, but the main one is it's webkit implementation performance. They need to rebuild it (and they are aware). The fact that both Android and iOS webkit engines are faster than webOS one is the main issue with webOS apps performance (including browser).

All Chuq is saying is that there weren't any other viable options, and opensourcing it gives it a chance to get adopted, that's all.
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Old 01/02/2012, 10:28 AM   #32 (permalink)
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I think there some good points in the article, but I think it was off or inaccurate. Did Sprint customers return Pre's for being slow, or because they broke, cracked, or got the Oreo effect? Honestly? And the slowness factor - the big games and programs at launch were native, not JavaScript.

I think the bigger problem for WebOS 1.x was lack of functionality, no API's, so developers couldn't use the camera or Mic... The TouchPad then had the API's, but didn't launch with a music solution, an ability to edit documents, no Kindle (for a month), no video output, no rdp, etc. Not good for a student, not good for a business man...

The sad thing is the solutions are finally coming together, just too late...
I returned mine to Sprint because it was slow as dirt.
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Old 01/02/2012, 11:21 AM   #33 (permalink)
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this article just makes my use of webos since I purchased a pre plus on vzw in Jan 2010 feel like I was sorta duped and had no idea what I or anyone who purchased a webos device was getting into.

but then I think about it. I use android and ios devices too...but I always find myself returning to my pre plus and now pre2. Despite the idea of "flawed" software, or "flawed" architecture, or that it was "rushed" to the market in 9 months, despite the "lack of apps" and "developer support" and all else that is "wrong" about webos...I UTTERLY ENJOY USING WEBOS.

so why is that?

I seem to remember the hoopla when webos was announced back at ces 2009...and when I got my device on vzw a year later...there was still some hype about it, so much so that even vzw couldn't wait to get its hands on the pre after the ceo stated at that time to sway sprint users that "we are gonna get a pre
like device." there WERE big name apps, we all seem to forget.

Pandora, Slacker Radio, TuneIN, Accuradio, Stitcher, TripAdviser, Trapster, Zagat to Go, NY Times, LA times, NewsRoom, Epocrates,Pepid, Lexicomp, Electronic Arts, Gameloft, GluMobile, Zumodrive, Evernote, The weather Channel, Accuweather, WeatherBUg,Valpak,Where, OpenTable,Kobo,AP mobile, Bank of America, Wells Fargo,AmazonMP3, Rovio with Angry Birds,Fandango,Flixster,Handmark,SPB software, DailyMotion, Youtube,Yelp, YPmobile,Goodfood,Forbes, SportingNews,Endgadget, google maps...the list..keep going....these are just apps I've had over the years.

if palm had their house in order, more organized, with better and more effective leaders and more finances...they wouldn't have built have assed quality hardware ( though the form factor and design concept was and is still outstanding in my mind and has improved with all subsequent pre's),they woulda marketed their product better, they woulda been able to hire some top notch engineers on par with apple and google...

this whole concept that the software was subpar, not ready for prime time, before its time...etc is fine and dandy, but android and ios were also built on some faulty building blocks and premises but they have succeeded because of the other factors- hardware, finances, and talent...that its become glowingly apparent that the palm team lacked these and leadership. That why it failed, hp added little to the mess...and so here we are.

meahwile, I still love webos.
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Old 01/02/2012, 11:26 AM   #34 (permalink)
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This whole webOS saga would make a great book.
It was ironic reading the NYT story last night on my Touchpad, like whistling by the graveyard.
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Old 01/02/2012, 11:29 AM   #35 (permalink)
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The article is a crock. If the Touchpad had been released with the performance of 3.0.4 plus the performance improving patches, it would have had no lagginess and the initial reviews would have been far, far better. That goes to show that the conception and design were fine, the flaws were in execution. The homebrew community has repeatedly proven WebOS as released has significant room for improvement.

I don't know that this would have saved WebOS, but I do think it is misguided to point the finger at design. I think this is just some people pointing fingers to redirect blame away from their own roles.
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Old 01/02/2012, 12:06 PM   #36 (permalink)
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I just read this article myself as I first found it on Gizmodo.. The whole article is pretty depressing as it all but calls WebOS a Failed-Dead platform, but a comment by someone else that read it kinda gave me some good feelings:

"WebOS is smooth compared to Android and has a Linux kernel. It is also more intuitive than Android. To declare WebOS dead because Web technology is not quite there yet presents a technological paradox that has potential to stifle innovation. Should we just accept iOS as the standard and see little change in core functionality and user experience because one manufacturer controls the platform? Or should we push the envelope on what an open platform can deliver?"
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Old 01/02/2012, 12:51 PM   #37 (permalink)
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I don't know, for what you use your tablet or palm (palm meaning the sequence: desktop, laptop, handtop, palmtop). I check my e-mails, write short text (like this), sms, google, wikipedia. I play short games or get the latest radionews during the coffee breaks, check my spiegel feeds or the stock exchanges. I look a movie or hear music. Sometimes, I phone with it.
I'm missing nothing. The devices never froze. The updates always worked fine.
Is it because the hardware was ok by the time it was launched in Europe?
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Old 01/02/2012, 01:09 PM   #38 (permalink)
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I guess the question is whether webOS can overcome the bad start and whether the OS can ever be snappy enough to make it a contender. I think some of the changes in 2.x and above {AFIAK} make the code precompiled. isn't this the reason some options like 5x5 icons are now impossible/impractical?

EG: What's next? is webOS ever going to be portable with sufficient performance to make it worthwhile? Will there be any new devices that come with it?
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Old 01/02/2012, 01:19 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Will there be any new devices that come with it?
I would be surprised if there were any new devices released with webOS. It would be a huge risk for a company to sink money into developing hardware for it, as well as tailoring it for that hardware, along with all the other expenses that come with launching a product, with very little chance of seeing a profit from it. It'll live on as an OS you can load onto your existing phone or tablet, most likely, but I don't see any major players bothering with it after it sold so dismally with Palm and HP. The rest of the world just isn't as interested in it as people here are.
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Old 01/02/2012, 01:53 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Oh, putz... Always is very easy "predict the future after it happens".

The problem was not the SO, was the companies...

The SO has limits? Yes, iOS have many, Android has many...


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