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  1. #341  
    Quote Originally Posted by rnld View Post
    Android is an OS. Motorola makes phones. Samsung makes phones. Apple makes phones.
    We know, but for the sake of discussion, it easier to say Android than to name the different handset producers. Apple, BTW, makes both the phone and the OS if we are going to be technical.
    Last edited by C-Note; 01/06/2012 at 06:13 PM.
    "Sometimes I feel like an OS-less child..."
    (with apologies to Billie Holiday )
  2. #342  
    Quote Originally Posted by C-Note View Post
    We know, but for the sake of discussion, it easier to say Android than to name the different handset producers. Apple, BTW, makes both the phone and the OS if we are going to be technical.
    Then why separate HP's PC market share from Windows market share?
  3. #343  
    Quote Originally Posted by rnld View Post
    Windows is the most used OS in personal computing. Why has this not translated into mobile OS success?

    People are familiar with it yet it hasn't received much traction.
    Windows Mobile peaked at 42% market share in 2007. It had success before the iPhone appeared and made it look creaky and old. Just like webOS, the WM revamp has no chance against the iOS/Android juggernaut, and it'll likely command no more than 5% of the market. Unlike webOS, Microsoft will never give up on it.
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    #344  
    Quote Originally Posted by nusome4 View Post
    Except people chose ease of use, awesome user interface, large screen, and the fact that it just worked over a bunch of random features that they may not use.

    Oh, and I think Apple has proven overwhelming that the masses don't care about the ability to change out batteries. They don't care that they can't upgrade the memory. They definitely don't care about an FM tuner.
    ROFL, This is where you blew your argument. My last Nano had FM radio as a feature, because the masses wanted that feature. I keep replying to your comments and I don't know why. You asked about MP3 players when the Ipod came out and the Ipod couldn't even work on 95% of the computers in the world at that time. I'm not replying to you anymore because you keep on typing very wrong/ignorant info.
  5. #345  
    Quote Originally Posted by rnld View Post
    Then why separate HP's PC market share from Windows market share?
    We are talking about phones, right?

    Because webOS and HP are joined at the hip. As are Apple and iOS. But Android is not tied to any one manufacturer, so apps written for Android benefit them all. An ad for the HTC Incredible may very well sell a Samsung Galaxy or the Motorola Droid.

    The Google model presents a very different beast to compete against. One of Palm's mistakes was they were acting as if if was them against Apple... and they never considered how to compete against the Google business model. The presence of Google gave them less room to flounder, which they promptly proceeded to do anyway.

    It a mistake Apple is in danger of falling into as well. Every time we retreat to a new metric for success, they are losing ground. How long do you think it will be before someone like Samsung gets the crown for most sales by a company, and then of a single model of phone? All the while, they benefit from the momentum of the entire handset collective. (The Borg? No wonder they are using robots as a logo )

    And don't get me wrong, I don't want to see Apple fail. I would rather see three or four strong players competing. But two yeas ago, we were not having these conversations, splitting hairs about what constituted success because Apple dominated by any measure. That is no longer true.

    C
    Last edited by C-Note; 01/06/2012 at 06:49 PM.
    "Sometimes I feel like an OS-less child..."
    (with apologies to Billie Holiday )
  6. #346  
    Quote Originally Posted by C-Note View Post
    We are talking about phones, right?
    No. Earlier people were talking about the cost of a PC vs Mac and then talking about market share.
  7. #347  
    Quote Originally Posted by C-Note View Post
    Every time we retreat to a new metric for success, they are losing ground. How long do you think it will be before someone like Samsung gets the crown for most sales by a company, and then of a single model of phone? All the while, they benefit from the momentum of the entire handset collective. (The Borg? No wonder they are using robots as a logo )

    And don't get me wrong, I don't want to see Apple fail. I would rather see three or four strong players competing. But two yeas ago, we were not having these conversations, splitting hairs about what constituted success because Apple dominated by any measure. That is no longer true.

    C
    I think at this point you are projecting an alternate universe.
  8. #348  
    Quote Originally Posted by rnld View Post
    No. Earlier people were talking about the cost of a PC vs Mac and then talking about market share.
    Quote Originally Posted by rnld View Post
    I think at this point you are projecting an alternate universe.
    If you follow the thread completely, you will see that the PC model was used only to illustrate how phone market share can shift despite one company's dominance at a given point.

    Once again, please explain what statement I've made that are so untrue as to constitute an alternate universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by C-Note
    ....two years ago, we were not having these conversations, splitting hairs about what constituted success because Apple dominated by any measure. That is no longer true.
    Here are the facts:

    Google

    Android Phones Pass 700,000 Activations Per Day, Approaching 250 Million Total | TechCrunch

    So apparently we weren't having these conversations two years ago.

    C
    "Sometimes I feel like an OS-less child..."
    (with apologies to Billie Holiday )
  9. #349  
    Quote Originally Posted by C-Note View Post
    The only problem with your stat is that you don't give any basis. 50% over all history, over the last 5 years or over the last 6 months. And more importantly, what are the projections going forward? We all know Apple has been a beast in the past, but will they continue to dominate? Problem is when you let the competition get an edge on you in any way, it puts them in striking distance.
    Damn, now you want a time line? How about 2010 and 2011?
    Here is Google general search: Strategy Analytics: Apple Takes Lion's Share
    More specific:
    Business Insider 2010: Here's How Apple's iPhone Totally Humiliated The Mobile Industry
    Google general search:
    Apple 2011 Mobile Profits
    More specific:CNN Fortune 2011: How Apple is sucking the profit out of the mobile phone market
    Forbes 2011: Forbes November 2011: Apple Takes Half
    Quote Originally Posted by C-Note View Post
    The problem with your Ferrari analogy is that I have no beef with their cars, but I'd rather own the Toyota corporation than Ferrari. At the end of the year I'd rather make $25 per hour and work 40 hours a week than make $50 an hour and work 10 hours a week.
    The problem with your comment is you used the word "I". What you prefer is of no relevance to the Ferrari analogy.
    Quote Originally Posted by C-Note View Post
    snip...Remember, the early arguments were "Apple sells way more phones than anyone else"

    Now it's "Apple makes more money than any one else".

    Next it will be "Apple makes more money per phone than anyone else". ...snip
    Yep, people were all over iPhone numbers, but at the end of the day, it's profit that matters. Even if Apple takes home less than half, they just need to make killer profit.

    Quote Originally Posted by C-Note;3278715[I
    PS - I can guarantee you that corporations worry about BOTH - money and who sells the most in their industry.[/I]
    Another forum mistake which makes for a weak argument: "I can guarantee" LOL. This one always makes me laugh. Two words you should avoid using whenever possible in a fourm: "I" and "guarantee".
    What exactly is your guarantee backed with? I hope it's not Webos stock.
  10. #350  
    You are comparing apples and oranges.
  11. #351  
    Quote Originally Posted by jrstinkfish View Post
    Windows Mobile peaked at 42% market share in 2007. It had success before the iPhone appeared and made it look creaky and old. Just like webOS, the WM revamp has no chance against the iOS/Android juggernaut, and it'll likely command no more than 5% of the market. Unlike webOS, Microsoft will never give up on it.
    Unlike HP, Microsoft is a software company with the most widely used OS in the world.

    That doesn't translate into mobile use for daily users? If not, the entire "Apple fan" argument is out the Window(s).
  12. #352  
    Quote Originally Posted by C-Note View Post
    We are talking about phones, right?

    Because webOS and HP are joined at the hip. As are Apple and iOS. But Android is not tied to any one manufacturer, so apps written for Android benefit them all. An ad for the HTC Incredible may very well sell a Samsung Galaxy or the Motorola Droid.

    The Google model presents a very different beast to compete against. One of Palm's mistakes was they were acting as if if was them against Apple... and they never considered how to compete against the Google business model. The presence of Google gave them less room to flounder, which they promptly proceeded to do anyway.

    It a mistake Apple is in danger of falling into as well. Every time we retreat to a new metric for success, they are losing ground. How long do you think it will be before someone like Samsung gets the crown for most sales by a company, and then of a single model of phone? All the while, they benefit from the momentum of the entire handset collective. (The Borg? No wonder they are using robots as a logo )

    And don't get me wrong, I don't want to see Apple fail. I would rather see three or four strong players competing. But two yeas ago, we were not having these conversations, splitting hairs about what constituted success because Apple dominated by any measure. That is no longer true.

    C
    If the last couple years are any indication of you, or most of the forum's, grasp on predicting the future of mobile electronics, I'm pretty sure none of your projections will come to pass. Some people particularly have a pretty poor record of predicting Apple's, or the iPhone's demise.

    I am sure the future will look different. I am equally sure no one here knows what that will be.
    sinsin07 likes this.
  13. #353  
    Quote Originally Posted by sinsin07 View Post

    1-Damn, now you want a time line? How about 2010 and 2011?


    2- The problem with your comment is you used the word "I". What you prefer is of no relevance to the Ferrari analogy.

    Yep, people were all over iPhone numbers, but at the end of the day, it's profit that matters. Even if Apple takes home less than half, they just need to make killer profit.



    3 -Another forum mistake which makes for a weak argument: "I can guarantee" LOL. This one always makes me laugh. Two words you should avoid using whenever possible in a fourm: "I" and "guarantee".
    What exactly is your guarantee backed with?

    4- I hope it's not Webos stock.

    1) Apparently, you didn't read all of my post or all of your sources. The question is not has Apple been successful, but will it continue to dominate (to the same degree or at all) as Google rises.

    from my original post: And more importantly, what are the projections going forward?

    (from your links)

    "Other smartphone vendors have grown using the Android platform," noted Martin Bradley, Associate Director at Strategy Analytics. "The dominance of the top 3—Apple, Nokia and RIM—actually weakened in the fourth quarter, as the combined value share of these three players fell from 72 percent to 61 percent. The Android-based handset market, which will grow considerably in 2011, is still dominated by vendors like Samsung and HTC. However, Chinese vendors, like ZTE and Huawei, also have a presence, particularly in lower price tiers.

    For the "they are so dominant that they can never fall" crowd, a lesson? (from your links)

    In an epic reversal of fortunes, Mr. Walkley pointed out that in 2007, Nokia had 67% of operating profits while Apple had just 4%. Today, while Apple has 52% of industry profits, Nokia has been relegated its rival’s former position with just 4% of operating profits.


    2- If profit means how much money you have in the bank at the end of the fiscal year, my opinion does matter. How much does Ferrari put in the bank at the end of the year? Despite making "lower class" vehicles they made something like 4 or 5 billion of PROFIT after expenses. If you think a few million in Ferrari profit is better... I hope you are not running my retirement fund.
    (By the way, a forum IS a place for opinions... just though I'd let you know that )


    3- Don't know where you work, but in my business (a corporation, mind you), where you rank in relation to your competition does influence you salary and even if you keep your job. Lots of companies reward (or punish) based on what you see as bragging rights. Because they know it can portend future sales opportunities. It's why companies pay money for competitive ranking services. You can look the concept up if you choose to. (Think sports coaches for a more prosaic example)

    And last but not least... #4 - didn't you violate your own rule? I think so... ROLF

    C
    Last edited by C-Note; 01/06/2012 at 08:18 PM.
    "Sometimes I feel like an OS-less child..."
    (with apologies to Billie Holiday )
  14. #354  
    Quote Originally Posted by finngirl View Post
    If the last couple years are any indication of you, or most of the forum's, grasp on predicting the future of mobile electronics, I'm pretty sure none of your projections will come to pass. Some people particularly have a pretty poor record of predicting Apple's, or the iPhone's demise.

    I am sure the future will look different. I am equally sure no one here knows what that will be.
    Apparently, you haven't been reading very carefully. My entire point it that nothing is guaranteed success... including Apple. Seems like some apply that principle but as soon as Apple gets included, suddenly it is seen as an attack.

    Don't think I said anywhere that Apple will fail, merely stating the obvious that it is possible - and stated some of the possible reasons why. If you find where I did "predict" that Apple would fail, please enlighten me. That seems to be setting everyone off.

    By the way, this started out as an mental exercise about where HP messed up and if they could have done anything differently. If all of the Apple people are done grousing, we can get back to that subject? Is that OK?

    If that subject bores anyone, no need to stay here. There are lots of other threads to enjoy here.

    C
    "Sometimes I feel like an OS-less child..."
    (with apologies to Billie Holiday )
  15. #355  
    I just find it funny for so long, so many people in here have been certain as to the future of mobile electronics. And always always wrong.

    You never know what is around the corner. It might be Apple, it might be Samsung. It might be a company we've never heard of. (Pretty sure it won't be HP...)
  16. #356  
    Quote Originally Posted by finngirl View Post
    I just find it funny for so long, so many people in here have been certain as to the future of mobile electronics. And always always wrong.

    You never know what is around the corner. It might be Apple, it might be Samsung. It might be a company we've never heard of. (Pretty sure it won't be HP...)
    But that is true of people everywhere. In fact, when you examine the reasoning behind the people who are 'right' more often than not, they don't know what the 'heck' they are talking about anyway.

    So it's not just here. Besides, isn't that what a forum is for.. opinions?

    Like when someone comments on my 'projections'... especially on the post referenced.
    "Sometimes I feel like an OS-less child..."
    (with apologies to Billie Holiday )
  17. #357  
    Quote Originally Posted by C-Note View Post
    1) Apparently, you didn't read all of my post or all of your sources. The question is not has Apple been successful, but will it continue to dominate (to the same degree or at all) as Google rises.
    from my original post: And more importantly, what are the projections going forward?
    From today's headlines: Forrester: Apple increases penetration in corporate market potentially worth $19B in 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by C-Note View Post
    (from your links)
    "Other smartphone vendors have grown using the Android platform," noted Martin Bradley, Associate Director at Strategy Analytics. "The dominance of the top 3—Apple, Nokia and RIM—actually weakened in the fourth quarter, as the combined value share of these three players fell from 72 percent to 61 percent. The Android-based handset market, which will grow considerably in 2011, is still dominated by vendors like Samsung and HTC. However, Chinese vendors, like ZTE and Huawei, also have a presence, particularly in lower price tiers.
    For the "they are so dominant that they can never fall" crowd, a lesson? (from your links)
    In an epic reversal of fortunes, Mr. Walkley pointed out that in 2007, Nokia had 67% of operating profits while Apple had just 4%. Today, while Apple has 52% of industry profits, Nokia has been relegated its rival’s former position with just 4% of operating profits.
    There's only so many people on the planet that can/will/able to buy a smart phone. Notice how it says Samsung and HTC are dominate. How much does dominate translate in to profit dollars. People keep throwing out marketshare, but if the margin is slim on profit, what does it matter? At the end of the day, its a company that needs to make a profit. Company exist for profit. Apple does not have the dominant handset. Why do they have the lion share of the profit? In 2010, Apple made more profit, then HP and Dell combined. So what value is HP's dominate PC market share if they can't even beat out lonely Apple with their 4% computer market share?

    The problem with the Android model right now is Samsung has to fight for customers against all the Android players plus Apple Microsoft and Rim. The difference is Samsung, HTC, ZTE, Huawei are all selling the same thing in various forms. That means for that one OS, they have to split the sales. How many of these handset carriers are getting book money, magazine money, movie money, music money, app money?

    As far as predictions of Apple's future continued mobile dominance, never mess with predictions.

    Quote Originally Posted by C-Note View Post
    2- If profit means how much money you have in the bank at the end of the fiscal year, my opinion does matter.
    If you say so. How this fits into the conversation must make some kind of sense to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by C-Note View Post
    How much does Ferrari put in the bank at the end of the year? Despite making "lower class" vehicles they made something like 4 or 5 billion of PROFIT after expenses. If you think a few million in Ferrari profit is better... I hope you are not running my retirement fund.
    (By the way, a forum IS a place for opinions... just though I'd let you know that )
    Who said your opinion does not matter? It really doesn't, other than to you, however what you went on about the Ferrari comment had nothing to do with nusome4's Ferrari analogy.

    nusome4: I guess Ferrari should shut down their company because they don't sell nowhere near as many cars as the whole auto industry. That's you logic, right?
    You: The problem with your Ferrari analogy is that I have no beef with their cars, but I'd rather own the Toyota corporation than Ferrari. At the end of the year I'd rather make $25 per hour and work 40 hours a week than make $50 an hour and work 10 hours a week.

    nusome4's talking about selling a product. You go off track about your preferences. Not relevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by C-Note View Post
    3- Don't know where you work, but in my business (a corporation, mind you), where you rank in relation to your competition does influence you salary and even if you keep your job. Lots of companies reward (or punish) based on what you see as bragging rights. Because they know it can portend future sales opportunities. It's why companies pay money for competitive ranking services. You can look the concept up if you choose to. (Think sports coaches for a more prosaic example)
    Ahh, the old "where I work" comment. Classic. Where you work means little on a forum. It's not even provable you have a job. Here's another classic: "Pics or it didn't happen".
    Quote Originally Posted by C-Note View Post
    And last but not least... #4 - didn't you violate your own rule? I think so... ROLF
    Sometimes pick up bad habits reading other peoples post. My apologies.
    Last edited by sinsin07; 01/06/2012 at 09:52 PM.
  18. #358  
    I have no problem with that, I actually agree. If I allow any tablets into my network (a big IF) it would only be Apple.

    But I don't think $9 billion in Macs (as they project) will 'dramatically disrupt' anything as compared to the number (in dollars or unit count) of Wintel based devices. But if those numbers hold true, it would be an improvement, credit would be due for that.

    This assumes
    1) the competition is taking this lying down and that

    2) this number factors in if or not the space will grow. If sales overall increase, it takes down impact of a dollar increase vs a 'percentage of total sales' increase. One of the earlier references you sent was also based on percentage of profits available. Easier to do after the fact, but much less meaningful as a projection.

    3) Since we started this about phones, it says nothing about phones sales as a percentage of the market going forward. I think my post on that subject to someone else is what set you off.

    Please don't feel compelled to 'defend' Apple. I'm not attacking them. Yet again, I will say "I'm not an Apple hater" (funny how many time I have to repeat that... in a webOS forum ). As a previous post to Finngirl stated... merely stating the potential obstacles that can change the landscape. You can accept it or not, I'm not going to lose sleep either way.

    I've (and others) have provided ample anecdotal evidence that anything can happen, doesn't mean it will... but is has in the past and will in the future.

    If you want to be snippy, you may continue to do so on your own time.

    I'm going to try to get back to the original purpose of this thread.

    Goodnight,

    C
    Last edited by C-Note; 01/06/2012 at 09:50 PM.
    "Sometimes I feel like an OS-less child..."
    (with apologies to Billie Holiday )
  19. #359  
    Quote Originally Posted by C-Note View Post
    We are talking about phones, right?

    Because webOS and HP are joined at the hip. As are Apple and iOS. But Android is not tied to any one manufacturer, so apps written for Android benefit them all. An ad for the HTC Incredible may very well sell a Samsung Galaxy or the Motorola Droid.

    The Google model presents a very different beast to compete against. One of Palm's mistakes was they were acting as if if was them against Apple... and they never considered how to compete against the Google business model. The presence of Google gave them less room to flounder, which they promptly proceeded to do anyway.

    It a mistake Apple is in danger of falling into as well. Every time we retreat to a new metric for success, they are losing ground. How long do you think it will be before someone like Samsung gets the crown for most sales by a company, and then of a single model of phone? All the while, they benefit from the momentum of the entire handset collective. (The Borg? No wonder they are using robots as a logo )

    And don't get me wrong, I don't want to see Apple fail. I would rather see three or four strong players competing. But two yeas ago, we were not having these conversations, splitting hairs about what constituted success because Apple dominated by any measure. That is no longer true.

    C
    Too many assumptions in your post.
    1. An app written for a Galaxy Nexus on ICS, may not work for an older HTC/LG/whatever "insert model here" on Donut, Eclair or even Froyo, since it wasn't until Gingerbread that support for things like gyroscopes, VoiP and NFC was added. While this won't effect top of the line new models, the lower end phones using 2.2 or older OS are. And one model like the Nexus, does not mean another Android based phone will operate the same way, new or not, due to manufacturer UI overlays. This is a fragmentation and manufacturer issue that currently effects all Android based phones.

    2. You also assume that Apple is sitting still and not pushing forward with new products. Point of fact is, that besides Samsung selling a few more unit in one quarter that preceeded the iphone 4s, Apple outsells every manufacturer in the smartphone category. Now add in the fact that Apple just received permission to sell the iPhone 4s in China and you see why they are selling 30+ million iphones a quarter and why Apple takes home 52% of the smartphone profit pie.

    And by the way, Nokia sells way more phones than Apple, as does Samsung I believe, but those are not all smartphones. Most are older dumb phones and make nil for the manufacturer. Additionally, you have to factor in lawsuits in the future. Will Google sidestep Oracle and Apple and not have their distributor manufacturers have to pay lcensing fees to both companies, effectively decreasing profits even more, after Microsoft takes its chunk of $5 per unit?

    The future of Android is far from certain. It will be here with us for sure, but how will it look and at what cost to the manufacturers? This
    sent from my 32gb Touchpad
    sinsin07 likes this.
  20. #360  
    Newness Developments apps:

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