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  1. #241  
    Quote Originally Posted by rnld View Post
    I'm very cheerful and making a claim that I am flailing is laughable.

    It's my bad however as it appears that I am "arguing" with students.
    Students who seem to do better research then their professor.
  2. #242  
    Quote Originally Posted by C-Note View Post
    Perhaps, but there are more than one path to success. Apple and Google followed different strategies and both have found success. But point well taken, the fact that software bugs are early Palm products is typically improved with updates shows that they could have just as well got the software working before they put stuff out. Crappy hardware is inexcusable.

    I'd have to agree on the prosumer thing, It would be a tough market to crack. In the tablet space they would have to create it. A tall order for a company that can't keep a release schedule.

    K4ever, if you mean prosumer like in cameras ,for example, they would need to build in features beyond what are in mainstream tablets to justify the tag.


    C
    No, I meant prosumer like professional consumers. Doctors, lawyers, teachers, administrators, and small business owners, to name a few. People who rely on email, document editing and sharing, and software tailored specifically to their business.

    I have a good marketing strategy for the TouchPad that HP could have used. It targets the professionals listed above. It requires no modifications to the current device hardware, just engineering some additional components and developing paid apps tailored towards their businesses. The advertising campaign would focus on these individuals. I would use HP's same distribution channels with minor tweaks. I will post it tomorrow when I get a break from work, if this thread is still available. If not, I will create a new thread in the appropriate area. Right now I have to get some sleep.
  3. #243  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    Students who seem to do better research then their professor.
    Students who THINK they know something based on a paragraph on Wiki.
    mister2d likes this.
  4. #244  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    Yes, in order to decide your marketing strategy (who you are marketing to, what does that group require from your product) you need to do research. Once you decide who you will market to, tailor your advertising and product towards that demographic. Palm and HP did not have a clear marketing demographic. They were all over the place.
    What you seem confused about is that in order to actually get a product in to the stores, on endcaps, in the circular, signage, all timed with the advertising and print campaign along with reviews, online media exposure, and product placement, is marketing. Pure and simple product marketing.

    If anything misfires timing wise - and the critical mass exposure doesn't hit in sync, you have huge problems.

    The demo of who is the targeted consumer for the Touchpad would have been identified before the first included app was built.
  5. kalel33's Avatar
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    #245  
    Quote Originally Posted by nusome4 View Post
    Did any of the MP3 players you listed have anything equivalent to the easy to use click wheel of the iPod?

    Did they have a large screen AND the large capacity like the iPod?

    Did they have the battery life of the iPod?

    Did they have the software that was as simple to use with the iPod?

    Did they sync your music automatically as the iPod and iTunes did?

    Were any of the MP3 players as small and compact as the iPod?
    1.) I brought up the click wheel.

    2.) Yes, to everything else and I wonder again if it's a "seriously" or "JK" question. Google is your friend and I can't do everything when there's a search engine for you to look it up with. I was already asked questions on what Ipod had and what others didn't and I debunked it. Ignorance is bliss if you only have dealt with one MP3 player. I really liked my Nanos(2nd and 4th gen) but hated Itunes(clunky and bloated software) and the battery life span was horrible(no more than a year and a half before it couldn't hold a charge well. I would have bought Creative if they had the accessories for armbands, instead of the one crappy one.
    Last edited by kalel33; 01/05/2012 at 04:28 AM.
  6. #246  
    Apple is getting paid to sell and market their products exactly how it's playing out. The evidence suggests that the vast majority of consumers want to live in a fishbowl. Apple has found the appropriate fishbowl size to put those consumers in.

    You blow it, as a company trying to mimic Apple's success, when you give consumers too big of a fishbowl. The result? Too much choice. Way too much. (Yes, too much choice can hurt). People don't have time to sift through countless iterations of one particular gadget, they just want something that works well AS SOON AS they pick it up. Quarter after quarter Apple's financials prove this.
  7. #247  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    The point of contention is why it flopped. It is a great product despite its flaws.
    This is where i have a fundamentally different opinion. I do not think any webos phone or tablet has been a "great product." And for me webos was a huge part of "the flaw." Yes it had good ideas but it missed the mark in some areas.

    I fully get that for you and many people that still like webos think it's great. You're fine to like what you've bought. But it's not a universal opinion. But i think most people on precentral are not like the average consumer and the average consumer didn't think it was great when they used it in a store. For the few that love webos the flaws, be it speed or lack of apps or other, are minor but from my observances for the average consumer they are not minor.

    Again i'm not saying you're wrong to think that it's great. But that the phone as a whole or the OS specifically is a "great product" is an opinion, and it is not universally shared.
    You come at the king. You best not miss.
    koolkid09 likes this.
  8. #248  
    Interesting comments on that article from Yahoo! users: In Flop of H.P. TouchPad, an Object Lesson for the Tech Sector - Yahoo! Finance
  9. #249  
    Quote Originally Posted by rnld View Post
    Students who THINK they know something based on a paragraph on Wiki.
    Students who do research beyond Wikipedia and an instructor that seems to be fascinated with it. My links were not from Wikipedia. I also checked the American Marketing Association for the industry approved definition of marketing and it was similar to or exactly what both I and C-Note posted. Advertising is a part of marketing, not marketing as a whole.

    Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk
  10. #250  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    Despite your attempt to limit my choices, I will still use Apple in my example. Windows succeeded despite being buggy and deeply flawed from the beginning. Microsoft used some very shady tactics to get costumers and keep them, strong arming hardware makers and stealing technology from competitors that were too weak to challenge them in court. Windows 1 through 3 were disasters. Windows 95, 98, and ME were only ment for stand alone computers and lacked the security required to connect to wide area networks. It wasn't until Microsoft designed a desktop operating system (Windows XP) around there network operation system (Windows NT/2000) kernel that we started to see the stability and security that other operating systems had. Which they promptly screwed up with Windows Vista and fixed by removing some of the overhead to make Windows 7. Mediocre product line, excellent and cut throat management, excellent marketing, highly successful.

    Apple has for the most part always made great desktop computers and dominated the field early on. However, do to poor management decisions in the late '80s/early '90s they lost that dominance. Their market share plummeted to 4% of the total PC market and stayed that way for close to 15 years. The products were superior in ease of use, security, looked good, and were ahead of their time in some aspects, yet they were relegated to a niche market. They were not resurgent in the PC market until 2007. They are still way behind Windows PCs today despite the resurgence. Great superior products, poor management (until Jobs regained control of the company), non-existent or little advertisement, not successful (4% of market share vs 90%).



    ---Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities (a great webOS app!)
    Not exactly the same thing. Yes, Apple was mismanaged when Jobs left. But, your example of Windows vs Apple market share is not comparable. They are not going after the same customers.

    No one expects BMW to sell more cars than Ford and Apple is not going to sell more expensive Macs than all the cheap PCs out there.

    If you want to go that route then start with computers at similar price points. I think there is an blog post on Engadget talking about the market share for all in one computers.
  11. #251  
    Quote Originally Posted by rnld View Post
    What you seem confused about is that in order to actually get a product in to the stores, on endcaps, in the circular, signage, all timed with the advertising and print campaign along with reviews, online media exposure, and product placement, is marketing. Pure and simple product marketing.

    If anything misfires timing wise - and the critical mass exposure doesn't hit in sync, you have huge problems.

    The demo of who is the targeted consumer for the Touchpad would have been identified before the first included app was built.
    The sad part about this whole exchange, besides the fact that it has strayed away from the OP is that you don't seem to recognize when someone agrees with you on a point. You then contradict yourself in your subsequent post in what seems to be an attempt to disagree with even yourself.

    Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk
  12. #252  
    Quote Originally Posted by kalel33 View Post
    1.) I brought up the click wheel.

    2.) Yes, to everything else and I wonder again if it's a "seriously" or "JK" question. Google is your friend and I can't do everything when there's a search engine for you to look it up with. I was already asked questions on what Ipod had and what others didn't and I debunked it. Ignorance is bliss if you only have dealt with one MP3 player. I really liked my Nanos(2nd and 4th gen) but hated Itunes(clunky and bloated software) and the battery life span was horrible(no more than a year and a half before it couldn't hold a charge well. I would have bought Creative if they had the accessories for armbands, instead of the one crappy one.
    When the iPod came out back in 2001 no other MP3 player on the market at that time had all that the original iPod had in one, one, ONE MP3 player.

    After the iPod was out, the competition started coming out with MP3 players that had a better feature here or there.

    You keep glossing over that ignoring the details.
  13. #253  
    Quote Originally Posted by nusome4 View Post
    Not exactly the same thing. Yes, Apple was mismanaged when Jobs left. But, your example of Windows vs Apple market share is not comparable. They are not going after the same customers.

    No one expects BMW to sell more cars than Ford and Apple is not going to sell more expensive Macs than all the cheap PCs out there.

    If you want to go that route then start with computers at similar price points. I think there is an blog post on Engadget talking about the market share for all in one computers.
    Why is it that when a company (HP, RIM, Google) says that they are not going after the same market as another company (Apple), their products are constantly compared to the other company on everything (market share, apps, pricing) by both tech journalist and folks here. But when that other company (Apple) is compared to someone else (Microsoft, Google) in a market that they do not dominate, claim to not be going after, but clearly are, folks like you say "they are not going after the same customers"? It's alright for Apple and not alright for everyone else? Why, because Apple doesn't dominate that market? That is pure and total B.S.. Apple was going after the general consumer market during that time period. They marketed products directly towards the average consumer just like everyone else. Was the iMac an attempt to sell a BMW like product? No it wasn't.

    The problem was that prices for PC was in a steady decline due to competition in the market place and Apple found itself with a similar product at a much higher price. They refused to drop that price and they lost market share quickly. They then scrambled to differentiate their products from the competition by fabricating a higher value. Even PCs that have the exact same specs as Mac are a lot cheaper. The thing with the Mac is that there are no low end Macs to drive the cost down or soil the user experience.
    Last edited by k4ever; 01/05/2012 at 10:58 AM.
  14. #254  
    Quote Originally Posted by ederic View Post
    Interesting comments on that article from Yahoo! users: In Flop of H.P. TouchPad, an Object Lesson for the Tech Sector - Yahoo! Finance
    I seem to remember similar comments from Mac users when tech journalist called many of Apple's personal computing products flops because they couldn't break 4% market share. I think these journalist have lost their objectivity when they don't take into account actual customers concerns. They tend to look at a product from the sales number/market share perspective and base their assessment of its success on that. Customers matter because if a product is around long enough (which the TouchPad wasn't) and it is a good product, word of mouth will trump bad marketing.
  15. #255  
    Quote Originally Posted by inertia1 View Post
    Because saying that you are going after an untapped market is just PRPRPR-$speak$ $so$ $that$ $you$ $can$ $avoid$ $comparisons$ $with$ $a$ $better$, $more$ $established$ $product$. $Saying$ $that$ $you$ $are$ $entering$ $a$ $new$ $market$ $is$ $a$ $lot$ $easier$ $to$ $get$ $away$ $with$. $Claims$ $of$ $new$ $markets$ $are$ $a$ $dime$ $a$ $dozen$.

    When you enter a market, you rarely get to set the terms, especially if you are going into a market that someone else either create or outright took from you.
    inertia, I understand that. That is why I take issue with someone saying that Apple is not in that market.
  16. #256  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    The sad part about this whole exchange, besides the fact that it has strayed away from the OP is that you don't seem to recognize when someone agrees with you on a point. You then contradict yourself in your subsequent post in what seems to be an attempt to disagree with even yourself.

    Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk
    The true "sad part" is you take all of this personally and talk in circles. You are way too defensive.
  17. #257  
    Quote Originally Posted by inertia1 View Post
    If you think that multi-billion dollar consumer technology investment decisions can be based on reading blog comments or relying on word-of-mouth claims then you are destined to be repeatedly surprised and disappointed by these markets.
    I didn't say they were. Thanks for trying to turn my words to support your bias.

    My comment was based on tech journalist formulating an opinion about a product based on market share without taking into account users opinions. Even journalist in other fields don't take numbers (like polls) at face value without talking to the people effected by that subject or action.

    BTW, what business, billion dollar or not, would not want an effective word of mouth, grass roots type campaign that supported their product? What billion dollar business does not do the research (polls, questionnaires, etc) to judge user opinions about their products? Not a successful one...
  18. #258  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    I seem to remember similar comments from Mac users when tech journalist called many of Apple's personal computing products flops because they couldn't break 4% market share. I think these journalist have lost their objectivity when they don't take into account actual customers concerns. They tend to look at a product from the sales number/market share perspective and base their assessment of its success on that. Customers matter because if a product is around long enough (which the TouchPad wasn't) and it is a good product, word of mouth will trump bad marketing.
    You do understand that the Touchpad's sales were declining every week?

    You do understand that the largest retail chain was returning all of their stock?

    HP was going to lose a ton of money either way. There was no indicator that the Touchpad was ever going to pick up in sales or that the limited number in the hands of consumers were enough to start a word of mouth surge when just the opposite had happened with WebOS on phones.

    The $99 blowout was an odd move, but the good news is that people have Touchpads who would never have bought them otherwise. It was a gift to bargain hunters, a slap in the face to full pricers.
  19. #259  
    Quote Originally Posted by rnld View Post
    The true "sad part" is you take all of this personally and talk in circles. You are way too defensive.
    You try to belittle others and set yourself up as superior by saying that you are a teacher and we are students, yet you don't even do research to back up your claims. I could have taken that to another level but I decided to have some fun with it.

    BTW, I worked in the military as an instructor and still train Soldiers of and on today. The first thing I learned is to research a subject before I train others on it. Even if I worked in that field for years and performed those duties in combat, I still hit the books to make sure I am up to date before I get in front students.

    If you are truly a teacher in this field, you may need to re-educate yourself. It took me 30 minutes using Google and researching professional organizations in your field to find those definitions. I even posted the links to them for you. You have yet to support your claims and seem intent on disagreeing with anyone who likes webOS. I'm not mad at you but you need to back your stuff up with facts or move on. Facts help the conversation.
  20. #260  
    Quote Originally Posted by nusome4 View Post
    Not exactly the same thing. Yes, Apple was mismanaged when Jobs left. But, your example of Windows vs Apple market share is not comparable. They are not going after the same customers.

    No one expects BMW to sell more cars than Ford and Apple is not going to sell more expensive Macs than all the cheap PCs out there.

    If you want to go that route then start with computers at similar price points. I think there is an blog post on Engadget talking about the market share for all in one computers.

    I'm not at all an Apple hater, but k4evers analysis was brilliant in this case. I was there, my wife's engagement ring was paid for on the strength of Apple in the business world (primarily education and business).

    They were absolutely going after the business market as hard as anyone else. Anyone remember the Videx keyboard converters to allow an Apple II to do upper and lower case? Or the co-processors to allow you to use say CP/M on their stock 6502 processor? We sold those by the ton, to businesses.

    Probably don't remember the Apple Lisa. I worked on consumer testing of that product. it was about $6,000 (in 1980's money) and it was all business, not home user could afford it.

    They all failed for various reasons, but I don't fault them for that. Ever company blunders, the good ones improve. By the early 90's, most Apple computer were relegated to the graphics arts departments in most companies. In my unit there were 50 PC for every Mac.

    Here is where Apple was brilliant (or lucky, depending on your personal bias). Rather than saying "well, since our strongest market is the design house market, let drop all of our consumer offerings and just make higher end (read: higher margin) design workstations" they continued on, recognizing that the future was bigger than just arts departments. (Otherwise they would be where Sun computers are or perhaps Wang computers)

    HP however, despite saying that the future is in mobile tech is doing just that. Apple didn't drop their business philosophy, they just tweaked it until it worked.

    C
    "Sometimes I feel like an OS-less child..."
    (with apologies to Billie Holiday )

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