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  1. #181  
    Quote Originally Posted by inertia1 View Post
    Ahh, the Chilling Tape thread. I knew it couldn't die.

    The central debate, here, appear to be whether or not HP should have given the TP more time before pulling the plug. My contention is that all you have to do is lay the TP side-by-side against its current competition and get feedback from a room full of people. You will quickly see that HP had a lot of work to do. You can also look at how much it costs to make and market it and see if a lower price point is acceptable. Then you can study how much it would cost to build up the platform infrastructure to be competitive. Then you check your corporate strategic model to see whether you are the type of company that is willing to enter a market when there is practically no chance of being first or second in that market.

    What you don't do is listen to your loyal fan base. That doesn't mean much when you have 1% marketshare.

    HP hanging in there with the TP is completely different than Apple hanging in there with the iPod. The original iPod was only compatible with firewire so it was initially targeted only at Mac users. They certainly weren't taking a loss on a $400 music player. Plus, I doubt that Apple had too many worries that they were involved in a MP3 player technology race with crap like the Rio being the only competition. HP clearly does not have a superior product with the TP. At best, they have a product that some people are willing to accept - at a steep discount.
    I don't think the question is if or not you hang with a product, because even the best of consumer electronics product has a sales shelf life of less than 15 months.

    If HP had said (a la Samsung) "we are not happy with this model, so we are going to retool" nobody would be unhappy. Most here would have been ecstatic because it would have shown courage and determination. It's how the game is played... make yourself better. Everyone has had to do it (Microsoft gaming consoles, Android OS, Apple - to stay ahead of the competition).

    But if a company is looking at the 'tea leaves' and it sees the future in mobile computing technology and NOT in desktops and laptops and then chooses not to fight but to just quit... it is puzzling. And if you are not happy with minimal margins, you don't get more profit by selling a 'me-too' brand of Android or Windows tablet. You don't sell your old home until you at least have a bead on the new one, unless you want to be homeless.

    For employees and investors, you don't inspire confidence by killing your most profitable line of business (PC division) and your potentially most exciting consumer technology (webOS).

    Time will tell, but the signs have not been good. Some of their best creative minds have left, (most particularly Duarte to Google), where they are making other companies better. Despite the rumbling of returning to their roots of innovation, they are destined to be a company full of people wearing brown slacks, and tan shirts buttoned up to the neck with no tie, and sensible shoes... with no creative passion.

    If you look at their stock price over the last year, the ups and down mirror the fortunes of the webOS saga. Maybe they will win over the investors and rise to their old stock prices. but right now they have neither a flagship product, nor high stock prices, nor any of the respect accorded to the other major players in the market.

    C
    Last edited by C-Note; 12/30/2011 at 03:39 PM.
    "Sometimes I feel like an OS-less child..."
    (with apologies to Billie Holiday )
  2. #182  
    Quote Originally Posted by jrstinkfish View Post
    I get what you're saying, but I don't think the same rules apply to those two products. I do agree that HP really jumped the gun on killing the Touchpad, but I can understand why they were spooked enough to do it.

    I've performed in bands in unpopular genres. We would promote a show like crazy, and when the night arrived, we just knew the place would be packed. Then we hit the stage, and there's 30 people there, mostly friends. Very depressing, and makes you question why you put so much effort into something, filled yourself with such hope, when the payoff was nil. I think this is how HP felt when they enthusiastically unveiled the TP and it fizzled (partly due to their own decisions, partly due to its unknown OS), and they probably looked ahead and didn't see much changing, especially when there was already a juggernaut steamrolling all other tablets. They'll have this black eye for a while, and then people will forget.
    Not saying you guys weren't good, but don't bands gain a following when they are good? Everyone in the tech industry is measuring the success or failure of a product based on the amount of folks that buy it in the first month. That's ridiculous. It seems that everyone wants their product to be the next "iPhone" instead of the next "Galaxy S". What they fail to understand is that the Apple had a following way before the iPhone was released.

    The iPhone was also innovative at the time. We don't see innovations like that everyday. That does not mean that all product released before or after that are no good. I brought up Samsung's Galaxy S as a prime example. It is the best selling smart phone on the planet right now. It passed the iPhone a long time ago, but you wouldn't know it based on the hype surrounding the iPhone. It did not have the lines of fans standing outside of the stores or the first week sales of the iPhone. Yet it slowly but surely overtook the iPhone. Why, because it is a good product.

    The TouchPad was a good product. HP was naive, dumb, idiotic, or whatever you want to call them for expecting it to sell just as well or outsell the iPad in less than 2 months. I understand their issues with Best Buy, but they could have fought that out. We have learned from celebrities and politics that negative press is good press also. The fight with Best Buy would have drove people to stop by the stores to see what all the fuss is about. Also, the TouchPad was highly rated on Best Buy's own website as well as Amazon and others. To top it off the fire sale drove so many folks into my local Best Buy looking for a TouchPad that the sales people wanted more of them just to keep the momentum going.

    But hey, that's in the past now. I still think one of the major indicators that you had a good product is when people want a product X number 2. They saw so much potential in product X number 1 that they want to keep the name. I guess the Xoom name was such a failure that Motorola went with Xyboard instead of Xoom 2. However, a lot of people want to see a TouchPad 2. Just saying...
  3. #183  
    Quote Originally Posted by rnld View Post
    The Touchpad was introduced into a marketplace late and offering nothing that didn't already exist on other tablets other than multiple cards.
    That's why you don't expect stellar sales in the first two months. However, if the product is good, which the TouchPad was/is, then sales will pick up once word hits the streets. I had several family members and co-workers who wanted a TouchPad, not an iPad for Christmas, after playing with mine. Flash and those cards were the biggest draw, despite what iOS lovers who's heads are in the cloud think.
  4. #184  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    That's why you don't expect stellar sales in the first two months. However, if the product is good, which the TouchPad was/is, then sales will pick up once word hits the streets. I had several family members and co-workers who wanted a TouchPad, not an iPad for Christmas, after playing with mine. Flash and those cards were the biggest draw, despite what iOS lovers who's heads are in the cloud think.
    It could of been they were just humoring you. LOL. With your passion for webos, it's probably hard to avoid it spilling over with such force as to intimidate anyone in your circle. LOL

    This kind of statement is beneath you: "...despite what iOS lovers who's heads are in the cloud think." It gives the appearance of bitterness that your chosen favorite platform did not catch on.
  5. #185  
    It could of been they were just humoring you. LOL. With your passion for webos, it's probably hard to avoid it spilling over with such force as to intimidate anyone in your circle. LOL

    This kind of statement is beneath you: [I]"...despite what iOS lovers who's heads are in the cloud think." It gives the appearance of bitterness that your chosen favorite platform did not catch on.
    You haven't met the people in my circle. They are not the type to humor anyone. I also keep my passion for gadget operating systems close hold. Not to many people know I'm an OS geek.

    The statement on iOS was directed at those who I have argued with over the importance of Flash. I was on the other side of the argument and had to be brought back to earth by reality. I feel they need to be brought back to reality about the issue also. Linux did not have Flash for a while and as a Linux user I used the same arguments the iOS users use.


    ---Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities (a great webOS app!)
  6. #186  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    What they fail to understand is that the Apple had a following way before the iPhone was released.
    Are you making the claim that the only people that bought iPhones were Apple users? Are you also claiming that HP did not have a following?

    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    The iPhone was also innovative at the time. We don't see innovations like that everyday. That does not mean that all product released before or after that are no good. I brought up Samsung's Galaxy S as a prime example. It is the best selling smart phone on the planet right now. It passed the iPhone a long time ago, but you wouldn't know it based on the hype surrounding the iPhone. It did not have the lines of fans standing outside of the stores or the first week sales of the iPhone. Yet it slowly but surely overtook the iPhone. Why, because it is a good product.
    Where is the data to back up this claim?

    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    The TouchPad was a good product. HP was naive, dumb, idiotic, or whatever you want to call them for expecting it to sell just as well or outsell the iPad in less than 2 months. I understand their issues with Best Buy, but they could have fought that out. We have learned from celebrities and politics that negative press is good press also. The fight with Best Buy would have drove people to stop by the stores to see what all the fuss is about. Also, the TouchPad was highly rated on Best Buy's own website as well as Amazon and others. To top it off the fire sale drove so many folks into my local Best Buy looking for a TouchPad that the sales people wanted more of them just to keep the momentum going.
    You make claims of what WOULD have happened based on nothing but guesses.

    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    But hey, that's in the past now. I still think one of the major indicators that you had a good product is when people want a product X number 2. They saw so much potential in product X number 1 that they want to keep the name. I guess the Xoom name was such a failure that Motorola went with Xyboard instead of Xoom 2. However, a lot of people want to see a TouchPad 2. Just saying...
    There is nothing to indicate it was a "good product" outside of people buying it for $99.00.
  7. #187  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    You haven't met the people in my circle. They are not the type to humor anyone. I also keep my passion for gadget operating systems close hold. Not to many people know I'm an OS geek.

    The statement on iOS was directed at those who I have argued with over the importance of Flash. I was on the other side of the argument and had to be brought back to earth by reality. I feel they need to be brought back to reality about the issue also. Linux did not have Flash for a while and as a Linux user I used the same arguments the iOS users use.
    I was pulling your leg there.

    Of course iOS user's have there heads in a cloud, its now called iCloud.

    The Flash argument would still be relevant if Adobe didn't put the brakes on mobile Flash. Content providers that want their content viewed on mobile devices will have to adopt another strategy.

    Apple killed mobile flash, and that's not me saying it, that's Adobe saying it in their press release on the matter.

    I just look at the evidence presented. The best selling tablet has the worst multitasking, no flash, no cards, but out sells every other tablets in the tens of millions. It would seem that those things don't really matter to the general public. The fact is they're buying them.
  8. #188  
    The Cloud was a big promotion point with Web OS on the launch of the Pre.
  9. #189  
    it sound to me like an IBM excec 1 week before the crumbmonster came.
    maybe will Ms.Withman beat a lttle sense in their heads
    What can be said at all can be said clearly, and what we cannot talk about we must pass over in silence.
  10. #190  
    Am I the only one who really likes the Touchpad hardware and think it looks quite sleek and attractive?
  11. #191  
    I like HP's hardware.
    but I took a look at Nokia N9, had it in my hands, and then back to pre3.
    And I could not even take it out of my pocket to compare with N9. They felt worlds apart, almost like the first iPhone side by side with iPhone 5 that is rumored to be designed after their tablet.
    I like webOS, but MeeGo solved same problems in slightly different but also efficient way.
    you can close apps there by swiping down.
    swiping aside will put the app in background.
    there's a separate notification centre screen.
    it's very good, and greatly designed. I wish Nokia could continue.
    these two losers are better than some favorites.
    usual thing - popularity is just a business on people who are not self-reliant.
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    #192  
    Quote Originally Posted by sonicmerlin View Post
    Am I the only one who really likes the Touchpad hardware and think it looks quite sleek and attractive?
    First thought when I unpacked mine last week, this look and feel great, how come HP couldnt sell this?
    Treo 180 270 600 650 Centro Pre Pr3 tPad tPad4G
  13. #193  
    because eventually people have to turn it on and use it.

    it has a great ui... but it can not compensate for all it was lacking or it's performance.

    otherwise you wouldnt be seeing people put android on it.... what a fricken abomination imo. if webos was so great i would smash the touchpad in little pieces before i'd let it get violated by an android lol.

    even then the hw isnt that great... kinda on the thick side and read of cracks at the speaker holes... we deploy ipads at our workplace and the ipad2 hw is really just the best... solid metal and glass. and when we swap out users ipad1 for the 2s (i know, spoiled), you really can see and feel the diff between 1st gen hw and 2nd.

    you really can tell, the tp was going against 1st gen hw... 1st gen tp was committed and when ipad2 was announced, it really put the nail on tp. heck samsung KNEW and had to redesign the moment they saw the ipad2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
    First thought when I unpacked mine last week, this look and feel great, how come HP couldnt sell this?
  14. #194  
    Quote Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
    First thought when I unpacked mine last week, this look and feel great, how come HP couldnt sell this?
    'Cause next to the competition, it doesn't stack up in the look and feel department, besides other things.

    However, you should enjoy whatever you purchased.
  15. #195  
    Market testing of major consumer products doesn't happen just by putting it out on the shelves and seeing what happens over a few months. There are focus groups done with side-by-side comparisons of devices along with their major competitors. Political campaigns poll less than 1 percent of the population in order to decide where to campaign. Movie producers do test screenings to gauge how much of advertising to buy and how many theaters to open in. Broadway shows can close in a week or two if opening night reviews are bad.

    The problem is that by the time you get to the focus group stage, you have already spent a ton developing the project so you usually have to do a release. However, the scope of your release and how much you are willing to spend on advertising is going to be heavily influenced by your early market testing. Both HP and retailers like Best Buy knew what they were dealing with within a few weeks of launch. A focus group of 100 people and a side-by-side comparison of the TP and the iPad 2 with the TP at various price points would have told you 90% of what you needed to know.

    You might not think that the TP should be compared to the iPad 2 but I don't understand what market does not foster that comparison other than inside an MRI suite where you don't want to use devices with a lot of metal.
    Last edited by multi1; 02/19/2012 at 12:30 PM.
  16. #196  
    Quote Originally Posted by multi1 View Post
    Market testing of major consumer products doesn't happen just by putting it out on the shelves and seeing what happens over a few months. There are focus groups done with side-by-side comparisons of devices along with their major competitors. Political campaigns poll less than 1 percent of the population in order to decide where to campaign. Movie producers do test screenings to gauge how much of advertising to buy and how many theaters to open in. Broadway shows can close in a week or two if opening night reviews are bad.

    The problem is that by the time you get to the focus group stage, you have already spent a ton developing the project so you usually have to do a release. However, the scope of your release and how much you are willing to spend on advertising is going to be heavily influenced by your early market testing. Both HP and retailers like Best Buy knew what they were dealing with within a few weeks of launch. A focus group of 100 people and a side-by-side comparison of the TP and the iPad 2 with the TP at various price points would have told you 90% of what you needed to know.

    You might not think that the TP should be compared to the iPad 2 but I don't understand what market does not foster that comparison other than inside an MRI suite where you don't want to use devices with a lot of metal.
    Steve Jobs opinions on focus groups...

    Its really hard to design products by focus groups. A lot of times, people dont know what they want until you show it to them. Businessweek, 1998
    Heard Isaacson explain this today. Focus groups would have been useless when Jobs was trying to design new Apple products. People in a focus group wouldn't know what they even wanted. There is no way any focus group would have come up with an idea like an IPhone.

    Isaacson said if Henry Ford had been using focus groups to come up with an idea to produce a better means of transportation they would have told him to get a faster horse.
    So, as far as the iPhone and iPad are concerned, it looks like putting the products out on the shelves with no focus group testing before hand worked just fine.
  17. #197  
    Quote Originally Posted by sonicmerlin View Post
    Am I the only one who really likes the Touchpad hardware and think it looks quite sleek and attractive?
    No, you're one of 750,000, and some of that 750,000 is questionable.
  18. #198  
    Most of the Touchpad buyers bought them at fire sale prices. There is nothing comparable at $99. People spent more on WebOS phones.
  19. #199  
    This was corporate executive speak for "some of us didn't want to do this in the first place and made sure it failed..."

    I bet the TP caused all sorts of heartache for the PC side of things; especially the comments centered around..."eventually every HP computer will be running this..." A few choice calls from MS over to HP could probably churn up a lot of negative sentiment inside HP...
    regards,

    Dan

    ------------------
    TabletPC user
  20. #200  
    It's a shame that Samsung didn't buy Palm instead of HP.
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