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  1. T-Pad's Avatar
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    #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by nappy View Post
    Well, that's certainly one way of looking at it.

    Another way of looking at it is HP barely managed to outsell the Galaxy Tab despite being over 4x cheaper.
    At least in Europe HP could have sold much more units - there was just one small problem: they hadn't enough units on stock. I know, because I was trying hard to get one. Finally I got one on eBay, but I would have bought more units for the firesale price (for my parents, my siblings and their children).
    Preł (iPhone 4), TouchPad 32 GB (PlayBook 16 GB)
  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    Maybe Samsung needs to drop the price.

    Oh, wait a minute, they don't get app revenues, no matter how low they are (because they don't own the OS), and they have to pay Microsoft $15 per unit for the privilege of using a "free" OS (Android). They would lose more money than HP did.
    And yet they are still producing Android tablets and phones. Must be something in there for them, dontcha think? Besides, counting what HP paid for Palm, which is basically worthless now, I don't think there's any way Samsung could lose more money than HP did
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    snip...BTW, who cares that it took the fire sale to become number 2?
    Other vendors that look at anomalies. The path to Touchpad's number 2 status was an anomaly caused by the initial lack of traction and the subsequent cancellation and firesale of the devices. This is a repeatable pattern available to other vendors, but not one that they will likely jump on unless they hire a "Leo" type CEO.

    Samsung, HTC, Intel, Amazon, Google, Apple, and everyone else in the industry know how the Touchpad and thus webos got to number 2 and are not worried about it. They see it for what it was, a dumping of defunct product and a rabid firesale to get rid of stock.

    They and the industry know that people jumped on the $99/$149 price tag and not necessarily the fact that it runs webos, it was most likely in spite of that fact.

    It seems it's only people here that think reaching number 2 due to the abandonment of the tablet is a sign that webos is popular, but fail to take in the fact the drastic price cut. Android tablets would sell that well if a $500 tablet was suddenly reduced to $99.

    The path to number was 2 not honorable, but nefarious.
    Last edited by sinsin07; 11/23/2011 at 10:27 AM.
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by T-Pad View Post
    At least in Europe HP could have sold much more units - there was just one small problem: they hadn't enough units on stock. I know, because I was trying hard to get one. Finally I got one on eBay, but I would have bought more units for the firesale price (for my parents, my siblings and their children).
    LOL. You are one of the consumers that proves HP decision to dump the Tocuhpad and webos to be correct. You will only buy at firesale prices.

    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    Maybe Samsung needs to drop the price. Oh, wait a minute, they don't get app revenues, no matter how low they are (because they don't own the OS), and they have to pay Microsoft $15 per unit for the privilege of using a "free" OS (Android). They would lose more money than HP did.
    What does app reviews have to do with Samsung selling tablets? HP owned the hardware, the OS and got app reviews. Did it help the Touchpad? No. The thing is with all of that, not many people outside of these board has a clue as to what webos is. Walk around any big city, you will see Android tablet devices in the street, on the subway etc, but you'll have to search high and low to find a Touchpad out there, and if you blink you'll miss it
    Last edited by sinsin07; 11/23/2011 at 10:45 AM.
  5. #65  
    It seems it's only people here that think reaching number 2 due to the abandonment of the tablet is a sign that webos is popular, but fail to take in the fact the drastic price cut. Android tablets would sell that well if a $500 tablet was suddenly reduced to $99.
    There is MANY tablets "white boxes" that cost less than $ 99.00, but the Touchpad was selled FAST in this value; in other words, the device have his value. Maybe you like, maybe not, but this is a fact!

    If was so bad as some "otherOSfunnyboys" say, gonna be in same situation of other with this same price...


    Best Regards...
    "If A Man Isn't Willing To Take Some Risk For His Opinions, Either His Opinions Are No Good Or He's No Good!" - Ezra Pound (Poet & Critic)
    (Happy A Lot, As A Good Carioca!)
    k4ever and Vistaus like this.
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by sinsin07 View Post
    Other vendors that look at anomalies. The path to Touchpad's number 2 status was an anomaly caused by the initial lack of traction and the subsequent cancellation and firesale of the devices. This is a repeatable pattern available to other vendors, but not one that they will likely jump on unless they hire a "Leo" type CEO.

    Samsung, HTC, Intel, Amazon, Google, Apple, and everyone else in the industry know how the Touchpad and thus webos got to number 2 and are not worried about it. They see it for what it was, a dumping of defunct product and a rabid firesale to get rid of stock.

    They and the industry know that people jumped on the $99/$149 price tag and not necessarily the fact that it runs webos, it was most likely in spite of that fact.

    It seems it's only people here that think reaching number 2 due to the abandonment of the tablet is a sign that webos is popular, but fail to take in the fact the drastic price cut. Android tablets would sell that well if a $500 tablet was suddenly reduced to $99.

    The path to number was 2 not honorable, but nefarious.
    It was bloody, but they got the mission accomplished. They could have had the fire sale and not made number 2 at all.
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by sinsin07 View Post
    LOL. You are one of the consumers that proves HP decision to dump the Tocuhpad and webos to be correct. You will only buy at firesale prices.



    What does app reviews have to do with Samsung selling tablets?
    Wow. Way to miss the point. It is not app reviews it's app revenues. Samsung cannot drop the sale of their tablets because they only make money off the hardware sales. There is nothing to back that up. So they would lose a ton of money for no gain, no matter how minor, in the future.

    HP made $200 million in sales on the TouchPad and I believe they discounted everyone to the fire sale price (I bought mine in July for $600 and I got back $450). They sold close to 1 million TouchPads so some of that money came from app sells. Samsung doesn't have that.
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by jrstinkfish View Post
    And yet they are still producing Android tablets and phones. Must be something in there for them, dontcha think? Besides, counting what HP paid for Palm, which is basically worthless now, I don't think there's any way Samsung could lose more money than HP did
    They can't drop the price on the tablets. They would lose everything. The are only a hardware maker. They get all of their revenue from hardware.
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    It was bloody, but they got the mission accomplished. They could have had the fire sale and not made number 2 at all.
    HP's mission was to be number 2 with at least 6 million units sold in four quarters, for price around iPad's. I'll bet HP would gladly switch their current position with Samsung which managed to sell similar number of units but for full price.
    Current situation is also not good for webOS - EBay, Craigslist and Amazon are full of touchpads for price around $200 - $250. webOS sales is slow at that price point, same as Kindle's which sells great for same price. I'm certain that HP management is aware of this situation, and I don't blame them for trying so long to find what to do with webOS. It's really hard to find succesful formula when you know that price for your device must be under $200 to be attractive to customers, and on another hand you can't even produce device for this same price. we can criticize HP for lack of vision, and management skills, but I believe this time, they are trying to figure something.
    sinsin07 likes this.
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    They can't drop the price on the tablets. They would lose everything. The are only a hardware maker. They get all of their revenue from hardware.
    HP is in similar position. WebOS haven't created enough traction for app store and HP services to become lucrative. Simply, HP is making cash also from sold hardware only.
    sinsin07 likes this.
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    Wow. Way to miss the point. It is not app reviews it's app revenues. Samsung cannot drop the sale of their tablets because they only make money off the hardware sales. There is nothing to back that up. So they would lose a ton of money for no gain, no matter how minor, in the future.

    HP made $200 million in sales on the TouchPad and I believe they discounted everyone to the fire sale price (I bought mine in July for $600 and I got back $450). They sold close to 1 million TouchPads so some of that money came from app sells. Samsung doesn't have that.
    Yep I missed that one. Thanks for the clarification.
  12. #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by Rnp View Post
    There is MANY tablets "white boxes" that cost less than $ 99.00, but the Touchpad was selled FAST in this value; in other words, the device have his value. Maybe you like, maybe not, but this is a fact!

    If was so bad as some "otherOSfunnyboys" say, gonna be in same situation of other with this same price...
    His point was that if a $500 Android tablet dropped to $99, it would also sell like crazy. Let's say Samsung decided to drop the Android tablet business, and their Galaxy tabs went on sale for $99. They would last an hour before being completely sold out all over the world.

    It won't happen since even though they sold only around 200,000, that is probably in line what they expected, and at $500-600 a pop, not a small profit either. Not iPad profits, but no other tablet will ever approach that.
  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    It was bloody, but they got the mission accomplished. They could have had the fire sale and not made number 2 at all.
    Part of the mission is to make a profit, which is more important than being number two. This was proven by the sudden HP decision to kill the Touchpad. The return on their investment was not meeting expectations.

    If HP thought their sudden rise to number two in the tablet arena (due to firesale prices) was a good thing, they would not be vacillating so much on the future of webos. They see it for what it was, thus they are unsure of what to do.
    Ironically it was the lack of profit and long term outlook that lead to the number two position. Nobody is fooled by the meteoric rise to number two. They see it for what it was, bargain hunting.

    HP: Hmmm, we couldn't sell enough tablets at market prices, we did a couple of price cuts but still not enough movement. Our product didn't sell until we ended the line and took a bath on dumping of the existing stock of Touchpads.

    What does that tell us?
    1: Nobody wants our product at market prices
    2: We have luke warm sales at reduced prices
    3: People only want webos tablets when we practically give them away.
    CEO to board: Should we re-enter the game?

    Stupid board: Yeah!!! We are number two now!!!
    Last edited by sinsin07; 11/23/2011 at 01:16 PM.
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by chalx View Post
    HP's mission was to be number 2 with at least 6 million units sold in four quarters, for price around iPad's. I'll bet HP would gladly switch their current position with Samsung which managed to sell similar number of units but for full price.
    Current situation is also not good for webOS - EBay, Craigslist and Amazon are full of touchpads for price around $200 - $250. webOS sales is slow at that price point, same as Kindle's which sells great for same price. I'm certain that HP management is aware of this situation, and I don't blame them for trying so long to find what to do with webOS. It's really hard to find succesful formula when you know that price for your device must be under $200 to be attractive to customers, and on another hand you can't even produce device for this same price. we can criticize HP for lack of vision, and management skills, but I believe this time, they are trying to figure something.
    I agree with your first point. I don't agree with the current situation point. Here is the current list of tablet best sellers on Amazon:

    http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-E...bosnation0e-20

    The 32GB TouchPad at $288 is number 7 on the list. They are still moving units at almost twice the fire sale price. That price is well over $200. I think they could probably sell an upgraded version at $350 given the current market.
  15. #75  
    Part of the mission is to make a profit, which is more important than being number two. This was proven by the sudden HP decision to kill the Touchpad. The return on their investment was not meeting expectations.



    If HP thought their sudden rise to number two in the tablet arena (due to firesale prices) was a good thing, they would not be vacillating so much on the future of webos. They see it for what it was, thus they are unsure of what to do.

    Ironically it was the lack of profit and long term outlook that lead to the number two position. Nobody is fooled by the meteoric rise to number two. They see it for what it was, bargain hunting.



    HP: Hmmm, we couldn't sell enough tablets at market prices, we did a couple of price cuts but still not enough movement. Our product didn't sell until we ended the line and took a bath on dumping of the existing stock of Touchpads.



    What does that tell us?

    1: Nobody wants our product at market prices

    2: We have luke warm sales at reduced prices

    3: People only want webos tablets when we practically give them away.

    CEO to board: Should we re-enter the game?



    Stupid board: Yeah!!! We are number two now!!!





    See my reply to sinsin07. The 32 GB TouchPad is the #7 best selling tablet on Amazon right now at $288. Prior to the fire sale it was around #10. There is still a healthy market for it.

    Edit: I replied to the wrong person...
    Last edited by k4ever; 11/23/2011 at 02:33 PM.
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    #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by chalx View Post
    I might be wrong, but I remember in yesterday's report, there was some $200 mill income related to Touchpad firesale. 200,000 units sold at firesale prices couldn't generate $200 mill.
    Are you talking about this:

    "Fourth quarter non-GAAP net revenue includes an additional $0.2 billion of revenue resulting from the exclusion of contra revenue associated with sales incentive programs implemented in connection with the wind down of HP's webOS device business, net of webOS device revenue for the period. "

    If so, I do not think that sentence means what you think it means!!!
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    I agree with your first point. I don't agree with the current situation point. Here is the current list of tablet best sellers on Amazon:

    Amazon Best Sellers: Best Computer Tablets

    The 32GB TouchPad at $288 is number 7 on the list. They are still moving units at almost twice the fire sale price. That price is well over $200. I think they could probably sell an upgraded version at $350 given the current market.
    Amazon is only one outlet for tablet buying. Being number seven on Amazon really does not mean that much without knowing how many units are moving. If vendors one through six are selling thousands an number seven is selling a hundred or more well it does not mean much.
  18. T-Pad's Avatar
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    #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by chalx View Post
    Current situation is also not good for webOS - EBay, Craigslist and Amazon are full of touchpads for price around $200 - $250. webOS sales is slow at that price point, same as Kindle's which sells great for same price.
    In my opinion the problem is not the price (they're even much higher in eBay/Germany), the problem is that webOS' future is not defined. If HP didn't abandon the hardware I'm sure the devices would sell very well for that price. Now the problem is that you are going to buy a device with an uncertain future.
    Preł (iPhone 4), TouchPad 32 GB (PlayBook 16 GB)
    Vistaus likes this.
  19. #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by Palmless View Post
    Are you talking about this:

    "Fourth quarter non-GAAP net revenue includes an additional $0.2 billion of revenue resulting from the exclusion of contra revenue associated with sales incentive programs implemented in connection with the wind down of HP's webOS device business, net of webOS device revenue for the period. "

    If so, I do not think that sentence means what you think it means!!!
    What do you think it means? Its really complicated.
  20. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by chalx View Post
    HP is in similar position. WebOS haven't created enough traction for app store and HP services to become lucrative. Simply, HP is making cash also from sold hardware only.
    Under what stone do you live? HP OWNS the app catalog, so they do make money out of it. It may not be enough to survive, but it's at least a nice bonus for them. Samsung doesn't get any income from the android market and they also pay to MS. Now, in which aspect isn't HP making slightly more profit in that aspect?
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