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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by nappy View Post
    Well, that's certainly one way of looking at it.

    Another way of looking at it is HP barely managed to outsell the Galaxy Tab despite being over 4x cheaper.
    If they outsold Samsung with total of just 200k sold, that would make whole tablet business (except IPad) ridiculous. Samsung would also had little reason to pump tablet after tablet and remain in tablet game if their US sale is less than 200k in year.
    I'm avare that in reality it doesn't matters if HP sold 200k or 1 mill (for HP would be better if they produced and sold with loss only 200k) but it's hard to believe that webOS and non IOS tablet can't be sold in large volumes even at $99 price. Amount of only 200k TP sold would mean that webOS is repulsive and not just un attractive to public.
    In my opinion, HP sold less than million but more than 500k.
    k4ever and sinsin07 like this.
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by nappy View Post
    Well, that's certainly one way of looking at it.

    Another way of looking at it is HP barely managed to outsell the Galaxy Tab despite being over 4x cheaper.
    But it still outsold it, according to this story. The iPad is around the same price and it outsells everything almost 10 to 1. If the Galaxy Tab was so great, why does the iPad outsell it on the high end and the TouchPad outsells it on the low end? Shouldn't people flock to it regardless of the price (reason withstanding)? The OS and hardware are soooooo much better...

    I don't mean to knock the Galaxy Tab or Android (well maybe a little). I like the hardware. I just want to blow some raspberries at the Galaxy Tab folks who strayed from Android Central over to here to condescendingly tell us how great their device was while trashing ours.
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by CHIP72 View Post
    I personally believe ASUS DOES get it because they are doing something to differentiate their tablets from the competition at the high-end of the tablet market - they are offering a detachable keyboard dock that can convert the play-focused tablet into a work/play netbook (with the Transformer and forthcoming Transformer Prime; they also have the keyboard-attached Slider).
    If the keyboard were included in the $500 price, I'd agree with you. The reason people (including me, a proud Transformer + dock owner) went batpoo crazy over earlier this year was because for $400, you got an incredible bargain, along with the ability to add the keyboard dock if you desired. Granted, the specs have bumped up for the Prime, but they also have ditched that $400 entry-level model (which in reality should now be $350, tops). When you start getting into the $500-600 range, you're playing in iPad territory, which is a dangerous place for a non-iOS tablet, no matter how unique it is.
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    #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by Vistaus View Post
    The cards metaphor is the big differentiating here. So yeah, HP does have something to differentiate with.

    And you're theory about not enough 200 costing tablets is not exactly true. If that were true, then why are most Android-tablets from Archos priced between 100-400?
    IMO, webOS is/was not enough of a differentiating factor for the casual, non-tech knowledgeable consumer to buy the HP TouchPad. If it was, HP would have never needed to hold the firesale.

    As for Archos, they aren't a high profile company (I'd never heard of them before I started looking into tablets), and at least some of their tablets were priced over $200. From what I've read, Archos' lower-priced tablets were also so-so at best. Having said that, I'm sure Archos sold a decent number of their tablets at the sub-$200 price-point, at least until HP blew them out of the water by selling a superior product with a lower or equal price during the firesale.
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    But it still outsold it, according to this story. The iPad is around the same price and it outsells everything almost 10 to 1. If the Galaxy Tab was so great, why does the iPad outsell it on the high end and the TouchPad outsells it on the low end? Shouldn't people flock to it regardless of the price (reason withstanding)? The OS and hardware are soooooo much better...

    I don't mean to knock the Galaxy Tab or Android (well maybe a little). I like the hardware. I just want to blow some raspberries at the Galaxy Tab folks who strayed from Android Central over to here to condescendingly tell us how great their device was while trashing ours.
    Would more people buy a $99 Touchpad or a $99 Galaxy tablet?
    Premium1 likes this.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    But it still outsold it, according to this story. The iPad is around the same price and it outsells everything almost 10 to 1. If the Galaxy Tab was so great, why does the iPad outsell it on the high end and the TouchPad outsells it on the low end? Shouldn't people flock to it regardless of the price (reason withstanding)? The OS and hardware are soooooo much better...

    I don't mean to knock the Galaxy Tab or Android (well maybe a little). I like the hardware. I just want to blow some raspberries at the Galaxy Tab folks who strayed from Android Central over to here to condescendingly tell us how great their device was while trashing ours.
    Well, it's been proven over and over again that there is no tablet market - only an iPad market.
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    #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by jrstinkfish View Post
    If the keyboard were included in the $500 price, I'd agree with you. The reason people (including me, a proud Transformer + dock owner) went batpoo crazy over earlier this year was because for $400, you got an incredible bargain, along with the ability to add the keyboard dock if you desired. Granted, the specs have bumped up for the Prime, but they also have ditched that $400 entry-level model (which in reality should now be $350, tops). When you start getting into the $500-600 range, you're playing in iPad territory, which is a dangerous place for a non-iOS tablet, no matter how unique it is.
    I actually agree with you on this, especially about the $500+ price point (though the only tablet I'd even consider at $500+ is the Transformer Prime). However, from what I've read I don't think ASUS is ditching the original Transformer, at least in the near-term. Assuming they keep the original Transformer, I think the 16GB should be priced at about $325 and the 32 GB should be priced at about $400 (or $100 less than the 32 GB Transformer Prime), to encourage Transformer sales but not discourage Transformer Prime sales. The original Transformer keyboard dock should be priced at $100-$120.

    EDIT: Actually now that I think about it, I could see ASUS discontinuing the 16 GB Transformer but keeping the 32 GB Transformer (with the price at $400), in addition to continuing to support the Transformer Prime and Slider.

    FWIW, I intend to be at Best Buy on Thursday night so I can get my hands on the original Transformer (16 GB) and dock for $350!

    One other note: I bought the 32 GB HP TouchPad for $150 as part of one of the recent HP computer bundle packages. The lack of apps is disappointing but expected, and I have a few annoyances with webOS itself, namely the lack of a back button in many apps and the bad auto-correct on the on-screen keyboard, but besides those things I like the TouchPad and webOS.
    Last edited by CHIP72; 11/22/2011 at 05:32 PM.
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by CHIP72 View Post
    IMO, webOS is/was not enough of a differentiating factor for the casual, non-tech knowledgeable consumer to buy the HP TouchPad. If it was, HP would have never needed to hold the firesale.

    As for Archos, they aren't a high profile company (I'd never heard of them before I started looking into tablets), and at least some of their tablets were priced over $200. From what I've read, Archos' lower-priced tablets were also so-so at best. Having said that, I'm sure Archos sold a decent number of their tablets at the sub-$200 price-point, at least until HP blew them out of the water by selling a superior product with a lower or equal price during the firesale.
    You know why I didn't put a valuta symbol? 'Cause I wasn't talking about Archos in USA-only. We're talking about total sakes here, so I also count total sales from Archos too, which means including Europe. At least here in Europe they are priced mostly under 250.
    Their hardware isn't crap. It's just that some of their lower-end models have resistive screens.
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    #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by Vistaus View Post
    Their hardware isn't crap. It's just that some of their lower-end models have resistive screens.
    Yeah, I've read Archos' tablets are decent but not terrible. Archos' tablets certainly aren't like the Maylong M-150!
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by jrstinkfish View Post
    Would more people buy a $99 Touchpad or a $99 Galaxy tablet?
    Maybe Samsung needs to drop the price.

    Oh, wait a minute, they don't get app revenues, no matter how low they are (because they don't own the OS), and they have to pay Microsoft $15 per unit for the privilege of using a "free" OS (Android). They would lose more money than HP did.
    Vistaus likes this.
  11. #51  
    With Apple's Q3 sales of 11mill IPads while others barely managed to pump few millions in whole year, I really can't see point for others to stay in tablet business. It's hard to admit, but Leo did right thing. Wrong way, right thing.
    Maybe we should be happy for possibility for webOS on printers? At least, in printing arena HP is in far better position than in tablet/smartphone arena, and printers group inside HP looks more serious than old GBU guys. If we could only care for webOS on printers...
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by CHIP72 View Post
    Yeah, I've read Archos' tablets are decent but not terrible. Archos' tablets certainly aren't like the Maylong M-150!
    I own an Archos tablet. I have an Archos 70 250GB I bought because I couldn't wait for HP to release the TouchPad. Archos' problem back then was that they didn't use Google's services and the 70/100 only had 256MB of RAM. Sure you could add Google's services later but when you tried to buy some high end apps from the market your device was not supported. Side loading is/was a headache. The low memory caused problems when Archos moved to Android 2.2 (2.1 was originally on the device). Custom home replacement apps would get killed all the time by Android 2.2 when you ran memory intensive apps, unless you rooted the device and gave the home replacement higher priority. However, when you root the device it voids the warranty and leaves a tracer on the device so Archos knew you did it, even if you reset it back to the factory settings. Archos tech support is near non-existent. It took them two weeks to reply to an incident report only to tell me that I was on my own. I heard that the newer Archos devices are suppose to be a lot better, but with all the problems I had with the Archos 70 and their tech support, I would not recommend them.

    My problems with Archos make me leery to recommend the Kindle Fire to folks either. If it is custom Android and not the "real thing", I wouldn't bother.
  13. #53  
    There is something wrong with this information somewhere.
    According to that Digitimes article, 16 million non-iPad tablets were shipped over the q1-q3 2011.
    According to the NPD article, only 1.2 million were sold.
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    If it is custom Android and not the "real thing", I wouldn't bother.
    Kinda second you on that!
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by chalx View Post
    With Apple's Q3 sales of 11mill IPads while others barely managed to pump few millions in whole year, I really can't see point for others to stay in tablet business. It's hard to admit, but Leo did right thing. Wrong way, right thing.
    Maybe we should be happy for possibility for webOS on printers? At least, in printing arena HP is in far better position than in tablet/smartphone arena, and printers group inside HP looks more serious than old GBU guys. If we could only care for webOS on printers...
    I think the right thing that Leo did was drop the price instead of throwing them into a landfill. Everything else he did was stupid. Apple is way ahead because they make decent hardware and have good advertising. The also built an "i" ecosystem that drives the sales of new "i" hardware. Your apps work across all of your iDevices (iPhone, iPad, iPod). You can maintain one unified music and video library. The look and feel across all of the devices is the same. I felt like this is where Mark Hurd was taking HP with the purchase of webOS. There was a vision at the beginning of webOS on everything. Leo did not believe in that vision. He was a enterprise software and services guy. He wanted to turn HP into SAP, IBM, or Oracle. The TouchPad and webOS (and the computer hardware business) were not part of his plan. He used low sales numbers on a generation 1 device as an excuse to execute his plan.

    HP can make a dent in Apple's tablet sales. They just have to have the intestinal fortitude. It's not impossible. Samsung did it in the smartphone area all by themselves by making great hardware skinning Android to give their devices a unified look and feel.
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by chalx View Post
    With Apple's Q3 sales of 11mill IPads while others barely managed to pump few millions in whole year, I really can't see point for others to stay in tablet business. It's hard to admit, but Leo did right thing. Wrong way, right thing.
    Maybe we should be happy for possibility for webOS on printers? At least, in printing arena HP is in far better position than in tablet/smartphone arena, and printers group inside HP looks more serious than old GBU guys. If we could only care for webOS on printers...
    Being #2 still makes money, also keeps #1 in line.. no competition is BAD for everyone. All the TP needed was a better price and a backdoor into amazon.com and it would have flourished. Had Leo made a deal work with amazon, it wouldn't be andriod on the fire it be webos along w/ the touchpads and a HUGE portion of the tablet market going into 2012.
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by LizardWiz View Post
    There is something wrong with this information somewhere.
    According to that Digitimes article, 16 million non-iPad tablets were shipped over the q1-q3 2011.
    According to the NPD article, only 1.2 million were sold.
    Sold and shipped are two different things. That could mean that 14.8 million are still sitting on shelves. I went to the electronics section in my local store. There was a big island with tablets, laptops, and cameras in the middle of the section. The space on the island was broken down like this:

    Cameras 1/8 of the space

    Laptops 1/2 of the space

    Android tablets 1/8 of the space

    iPad display 1/4 of the space

    The iPad display was twice the size of the Android tablet displays and was right at the beginning of the section. Almost none of the Android tablets were even on. They looked abandoned. I can only imagine how many were locked in a cabinet collecting dust.
  18. #58  
    Here is the question for you: where does HP go from here?

    They cannot afford to over look the mobile market. They have hinted at making new tablets. However, putting Android on their new tablet won't help. The data from this story proves that. It is a low margin market and the hardware, no matter how good it is, is not selling. They wouldn't get any revenue generated from apps sales or services, unless they create their own market like Amazon did. If they planned on investing the money and time into that, they might as well keep webOS and use it instead. To top that off, they would have to pay Microsoft a fee to use Android, or get sued. Putting Windows on a tablet is just plain dumb. Nobody wanted it when Microsoft started the tablet market and no one wants it now. Same thing applies as with Android, except I don't think they can pull an Amazon and create their own Windows app market. Microsoft is not about sharing.

    I think the only way to survive in the mobile space is to build on the platform and user base they already have. They need to mend some fences with the community, hardware suppliers, retailers, and cellular companies. They disbanded the mobile hardware division which, on the surface looks bleak, but in reality they just eliminated a duplicate effort. If the PSG has the engineers available to make Windows ARM based tablets, those same engineer could make webOS tablets as well, so there is really no need for the old Palm guys just to make tablets. Commission Samsung to make webOS phone hardware. They also need to squeeze suppliers and use common hardware as much as possible in their products to cut back on cost. Introduce a thinner, faster TouchPad 2 with more input/output slots at a lower cost. Put webOS on all their computers, starting with their Touchsmart line, even if it runs on top of Windows as a skin in a hybrid type VM or as a fast boot option (they have to fix the slow boot time first!). Give all of your devices (computers, laptop, printers, phones, and tablet) a unified look and feel based on webOS, allow multiple uses of the same webOS/Palm account across these devices, and establish a unified cloud-based solution for sharing multimedia content across devices with a whispersync like mode. Sign contracts with content providers and pay developers to develop some major must have apps for webOS (like NetFlix, Hulu Plus, etc). Do this on the cheap. Have big ideas but find inexpensive ways to implement them. They won't see large amounts of revenue from this for some time. They will see some losses in the beginning, but it takes that to build an ecosystem (no matter what OS it is based on). Update the OS often and don't aim for perfection with each update, just concentrate on fixing major bugs while trying not to lose people's data or brick a device. Give your OS updates names. Tech sites will go gaga over that. Especially if the names follow a pattern and sound cute. Everyone will spend time trying to guess what the next update's name will be, given HP some free press. Develop and advertise an update schedule. People feel comfortable when they know when to expect updates. It also makes the platform look mature and some folks will look pass minor bugs now if there is a hint that it will be fixed in the next update.

    HP can get back into this. They just need to stick with it and be realistic about their goals.
    Last edited by k4ever; 11/22/2011 at 08:02 PM.
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    Here is the question for you: where does HP go from here?

    They cannot afford to over look the mobile market. They have hinted at making new tablets. However, putting Android on their new tablet won't help. The data from this story proves that. It is a low margin market and the hardware, no matter how good it is, is not selling. They wouldn't get any revenue generated from apps sales or services, unless they create their own market like Amazon did. If they planned on investing the money and time into that, they might as well keep webOS and use it instead. To top that off, they would have to pay Microsoft a fee to use Android, or get sued. Putting Windows on a tablet is just plain dumb. Nobody wanted it when Microsoft started the tablet market and no one wants it now. Same thing applies as with Android, except I don't think they can pull an Amazon and create their own Windows app market. Microsoft is not about sharing.

    I think the only way to survive in the mobile space is to build on the platform and user base they already have. They need to mend some fences with the community, hardware suppliers, retailers, and cellular companies. They disbanded the mobile hardware division which, on the surface looks bleak, but in reality they just eliminated a duplicate effort. If the PSG has the engineers available to make Windows ARM based tablets, those same engineer could make webOS tablets as well, so there is really no need for the old Palm guys just to make tablets. Commission Samsung to make webOS phone hardware. They also need to squeeze suppliers and use common hardware as much as possible in their products to cut back on cost. Introduce a thinner, faster TouchPad 2 with more input/output slots at a lower cost. Put webOS on all their computers, starting with their Touchsmart line, even if it runs on top of Windows as a skin in a hybrid type VM or as a fast boot option (they have to fix the slow boot time first!). Give all of your devices (computers, laptop, printers, phones, and tablet) a unified look and feel based on webOS, allow multiple uses of the same webOS/Palm account across these devices, and establish a unified cloud-based solution for sharing multimedia content across devices with a whispersync like mode. Sign contracts with content providers and pay developers to develop some major must have apps for webOS (like NetFlix, Hulu Plus, etc). Do this on the cheap. Have big ideas but find inexpensive ways to implement them. They won't see large amounts of revenue from this for some time. They will see some losses in the beginning, but it takes that to build an ecosystem (no matter what OS it is based on). Update the OS often and don't aim for perfection with each update, just concentrate on fixing major bugs while trying not to lose people's data or brick a device. Give your OS updates names. Tech sites will go gaga over that. Especially if the names follow a pattern and sound cute. Everyone will spend time trying to guess what the next update's name will be, given HP some free press. Develop and advertise an update schedule. People feel comfortable when they know when to expect updates. It also makes the platform look mature and some folks will look pass minor bugs now if there is a hint that it will be fixed in the next update.

    HP can get back into this. They just need to stick with it and be realistic about their goals.
    I just read the entire post from each one trying to discredit the NPD numbers or question them. I agree with you k4ever..HP needs to make a solid decision on moving forward with WebOS. My brother made a comment to me via skype 3 days ago(which doesnt mean much but worth noting) who works in the enterprise division but hears all the news coming from the webos division. He made it sound as if its coming back to life. Said its like the walking dead ... coming back to life. Even after its been said to be a dead OS by people internally saying its over.
    So Im' hopefull at best that it may survive big ax . In the past month I bought at least 23 TP's for co workers who would never even had considered one .. but yes they saw the price and wanted one but once they got a hold of one .. they cant put it down because it handles so much easier compared to a laptop/netbook/ desktop... Its Convenient! i got them mostly thru CraigsList for about 220 avg so to them it was worth it.
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by T4H_KiserSose View Post
    I just read the entire post from each one trying to discredit the NPD numbers or question them. I agree with you k4ever..HP needs to make a solid decision on moving forward with WebOS. My brother made a comment to me via skype 3 days ago(which doesnt mean much but worth noting) who works in the enterprise division but hears all the news coming from the webos division. He made it sound as if its coming back to life. Said its like the walking dead ... coming back to life. Even after its been said to be a dead OS by people internally saying its over.
    So Im' hopefull at best that it may survive big ax . In the past month I bought at least 23 TP's for co workers who would never even had considered one .. but yes they saw the price and wanted one but once they got a hold of one .. they cant put it down because it handles so much easier compared to a laptop/netbook/ desktop... Its Convenient! i got them mostly thru CraigsList for about 220 avg so to them it was worth it.
    I just think it will be hard to gain customers back. I mean who is going to come back after they essentially left everyone who bought a new product in the veer and touchpad + older webos devices out to dry with stopping everything for them? Just seems like it would be an uphill battle that they clearly did not want to get in as seen with how soon they gave up on it. The pre3 would have been a huge seller but they killed it before it had a chance. If they could get someone like samsung or lg to make a webos device now that would be a huge seller and something to help bring it back IMO.
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