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  1. #21  
    'Touchstone charger got fried..' This does not surprise me!

    The 'charging' frequency of the Touchstone is of a high order.. definitely think 'Microwave'.

    It sounds rather like you just got got the Touchstone to reflect it's own 'microwaves' straight back into itself.. result.. definitely 'overcooked'!

    Is there some kitchen-lore about not putting Aluminium Foil in Microwave ovens?

    Anyway.. maybe Silver spray paint and laquer would have been a better original idea!
    Last edited by Mutoidi; 10/14/2011 at 06:37 AM.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by geekpeter View Post
    its like microwaving your kettle full of water then wondering why the kettle and microwave are broken.
    I remember as a young boy thinking I would boil an egg in the microwave.

    Learned a very important lesson - superheated microwave eggs turn into fragmentation hand grenades. Gives "egg on your face" a whole new meaning (especially as your mom is tweezing little pieces of egg shell out of your cheek).

    Come to think of it, the microwave was the source of many childhood issues... I tried to pop a -single- kernel of corn in one at around 8 years old - I really wanted to see what it looked like when a single corn kernel popped. 16 minutes in the kernel still hadn't popped, and the microwave caught on fire. My next microwave "brilliant moment" came from the observation that water didn't seem to boil when heated in the microwave - turns out you wind up superheating the water and it basically explodes when you touch the stupid-hot glass. My left hand still has a decent little scar on it from a superheated water burn. Another time I got the bright idea of microwaving a flaming match. As I recall, I tossed a glass cup over it, quickly shut the door, and fired her up. Let me just go on record right here and say NEVER DO THAT! The sound, the giant plasma ball, the molten glass....... My mother was not amused.

    Then there was the time I microwaved a lightbulb.

    So, basically, don't do ANYTHING in this message if you value your personal safety. And for the love of god, don't attempt to charge with a touchstone if you've went ahead and added a metal foil backing to your touchpad .
    New to webOS? Here's my definitive Get Started guide: http://forums.webosnation.com/hp-tou...ted-guide.html

    Want to dual boot Android on your Touchpad? Here's my guide: http://forums.webosnation.com/androi...ted-guide.html
  3. #23  
    Hhmm.. it just occurs to me that maybe it isn't such a healthy idea to have an unscreened microwave generator (ie. Touchstone) sitting around on your desk, inches from your face anyway?

    Maybe the OP did himself a favour by chucking it down the rubbish chute!

    Time to get out the Al-foil Hats!

    Last edited by Mutoidi; 10/14/2011 at 02:18 AM.
  4. #24  
    Damnit... There goes my idea of gold-plating the case and passing it off as 'dirty-little-secret' Steve Jobs memorabilia on ebay. Back to the drawing board...
  5. #25  
    hahahahahahahahahahahaha cough hahahahahahahahahahahaha
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by ncinerate View Post
    I remember as a young boy thinking I would boil an egg in the microwave.

    Learned a very important lesson - superheated microwave eggs turn into fragmentation hand grenades. Gives "egg on your face" a whole new meaning (especially as your mom is tweezing little pieces of egg shell out of your cheek).

    Come to think of it, the microwave was the source of many childhood issues... I tried to pop a -single- kernel of corn in one at around 8 years old - I really wanted to see what it looked like when a single corn kernel popped. 16 minutes in the kernel still hadn't popped, and the microwave caught on fire. My next microwave "brilliant moment" came from the observation that water didn't seem to boil when heated in the microwave - turns out you wind up superheating the water and it basically explodes when you touch the stupid-hot glass. My left hand still has a decent little scar on it from a superheated water burn. Another time I got the bright idea of microwaving a flaming match. As I recall, I tossed a glass cup over it, quickly shut the door, and fired her up. Let me just go on record right here and say NEVER DO THAT! The sound, the giant plasma ball, the molten glass....... My mother was not amused.

    Then there was the time I microwaved a lightbulb.

    So, basically, don't do ANYTHING in this message if you value your personal safety. And for the love of god, don't attempt to charge with a touchstone if you've went ahead and added a metal foil backing to your touchpad .
    Amazing. Your mom should have gone crazy with you..

    I'm thinking of trying to charge the TP in the microwave. What's the worse that could happen? :P The best thing that could happen, would be to charge from 0 to 100 the TP in 1 min.
  7. #27  
    Hmmm, put an Aluminium pan on an inductive hob and you'll wait till hell freezes over for it to get hot. I'm thinking the foil had more than aluminium in it?
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mutoidi View Post
    Hhmm.. it just occurs to me that maybe it isn't such a healthy idea to have an unscreened microwave generator (ie. Touchstone) sitting around on your desk, inches from your face anyway?
    Surely the touchstone uses induction rather than microwaves. It's definitely not the same thing, just a coil with an AC current flowing through it. Sure the AC frequency may be pretty high but there are no EM waves shooting out of it just a small field close to the surface which induces a similar AC current in the back of the touchpad, just like the coils inside an old style transformer but with detatchable primary and secondaries.

    Foil is a bad idea because it will interfere with the coils and destroy the magnetic field and thus the efficiency of power transfer. My guess is the touchstone fried because it tried to up it's output to compensate and burned out it's coils in the process.
  9. #29  
    Extra! Extra!

    Electro-magnetism isn't the same as microwaves. Similar....sort of, but not the same, as microwaves are far higher in frequency. Here's the wiki

    Read all about it!

    Due to the cancellation of the penny, I no longer give 2¢ about anything. I may however, give a nickel
    LinuxKoss likes this.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by andyhurley View Post
    Surely the touchstone uses induction rather than microwaves. It's definitely not the same thing, just a coil with an AC current flowing through it. Sure the AC frequency may be pretty high but there are no EM waves shooting out of it just a small field close to the surface which induces a similar AC current in the back of the touchpad, just like the coils inside an old style transformer but with detatchable primary and secondaries.

    Foil is a bad idea because it will interfere with the coils and destroy the magnetic field and thus the efficiency of power transfer. My guess is the touchstone fried because it tried to up it's output to compensate and burned out it's coils in the process.
    Sure.. induction is the principle used, but at WAY above the standard slow motion 50/60Hz of household AC supply current. I think the Touchstone is up in the Khz - maybe Mhz, range.. clearly to increase efficiency and reduce resistance.. yes.. but none the less using a tuned inductive resonance principle as opposed to a straight 'magnetic field' effect/principle. In other words both the tranmitting coil (in the Touchstone) and pickup coil (in the Touchpad) are exactly tuned to each other.. at that same high frequency. Put a reciever coil of a lower harmonic frequency in front of the Touchstone and it won't be able to 'see' it!

    Put a piece of radio 'proof' foil in front of it and I would suggest that it is 'blinded' altogether.

    Put a reflective 'dish' behind any source of such radiations and you tend to focus them. But put a refelctive 'dish' in FRONT of the source and you throw them back toward the source. I wonder whether the current limiters in the Touchstone would really allow it to 'commit suicide' so easily, simply through 'trying' to permeate an such 'obstruction' to the 'induction'.. IF so then this is actually a 'fault', or oversight, in the design of the unit!

    I suspect there is more, on a HF level, going on here than initially meets the eye!

    Last edited by Mutoidi; 10/14/2011 at 07:05 AM.
  11. #31  
    Yes 'sledge007' above.. Thanks.. here are several clues in that 'wiki' to indicate that this may be what is going on?:

    '..The effect of microwaving thin metal films can be seen clearly on a Compact Disc or DVD (particularly the factory pressed type). The microwaves induce electric currents in the metal film, which heats up, melting the plastic in the disc..'

    '..Another hazard is the resonance of the magnetron tube itself. If the microwave is run without an object to absorb the radiation, a standing wave will form. The energy is reflected back and forth between the tube and the cooking chamber. This may cause the tube to overload and burn out..'

    '..Any object containing pointed metal can create an electric arc (sparks) when microwaved. This includes cutlery, crumpled aluminum foil (though not all foil use in microwaves is unsafe), twist-ties containing metal wire, the metal wire carry-handles in paper Chinese take-out food containers, or almost any metal formed into a poorly conductive foil or thin wire..'

    Hhmmm... I still maintain that it may well not be too 'healthy' an idea, to spend hours sitting too close to an active Touchstone? Similar actually probably applies to 'Wifi' too!

    *
    Last edited by Mutoidi; 10/14/2011 at 06:46 AM.
  12. #32  
    May I ask what the point of the foil was? Did you think it was going to look cool?
  13. #33  
    More clues?

    ~~~

    '..As Rod Whitby of WebOS Internals uncovered, the Veer’s integrated Touchstone coils operate at the frequencies of 118.5KHz and 3.1MHz. That’s a lot of juice, but it’s curious that there are two frequencies at play here. Enter Joe Sacher, webOS community member and oscilloscope owner and operator. Mr. Sacher sat down and put the oscilloscope to work on his first-generation Touchstone, finding that its magical inductive charging voodoo operated at a frequency around 122KHz.

    That identifies the 118.5KHz frequency of the Veer back as being the charging coils, and then there’s the question of the much higher frequency 3.1MHz coil. What’s that for? It was epiphany time: that’s a communication coil, and it’s how the Veer identifies which Touchstone it’s on. Reasonable speculation and conjecture follows that a Touchstone v2 dock would have a similar 3.1MHz coil to facilitate that communication, thus identifying which charger it is. Before you get fearful about that stockpile of Touchstones you have scattered about your daily existence, Sacher reasons that the old and new charging frequencies are close enough together that they should be interoperable, though older devices on new Touchstones won’t be able to receive the identifying communiqués, and new devices on old Touchstones won’t have anything to listen to..'

    ~~~

    http://www.precentral.net/touchstone...entity-not-nfc

    ~~~

    So there are two coils in this setup.. one to charge (at 120Khz) and one to communicate identity (at 3Mhz).

    Thats a heap more then 50/60Hz anyway!

    Last edited by Mutoidi; 10/14/2011 at 07:00 AM.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by xninjagrrl View Post
    May I ask what the point of the foil was? Did you think it was going to look cool?
    OP says: 'It looked real nice...'

  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mutoidi View Post
    ... I still maintain that it may well not be too 'healthy' an idea, to spend hours sitting too close to an active Touchstone? Similar actually probably applies to 'Wifi' too!

    *
    Except that induction is still not microwaves.

    If you are unconditionally afraid of the unholy devilry that is electromagnetism, better commit suicide or move into a cave in some lead-containing rock (which would pose its own health risks) RIGHT NOW because radio and TV transmissions are electromagnetic and will probably kill you, just like owning a cellphone. Doesn't actually matter whether you have a TV or radio as they're both passive devices and only receive broadcast radiation. If you live anywhere you COULD have a TV, you're being irradiated by FOX News 24/7.
    Oh, and anything using electricity? That's EM as well and by your reckoning probably not healthy.

    But all of that is moot anyway because there's sunshine every day - horrible, deadly sunshine bringing you lots and lots of mutagenic electromagnetic radiation. And that doesn't even touch on cosmic microwave (!) background radiation, which unlike the Touchstone, is actually microwaves, and which is absolutely everywhere in this universe. You can't run. You can't hide.

    The bottom line is that living isn't a particularly healthy activity and WILL eventually kill you. Electromagnetic 'smog' of the kind you are supposing the Touchstone to emit is probably the least of your worries.
    Last edited by GodShapedHole; 10/14/2011 at 07:12 AM.
    atg284 likes this.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by GodShapedHole View Post
    Except that induction is still not microwaves.

    If you are unconditionally afraid of the unholy devilry that is electromagnetism, better commit suicide or move into a cave in some lead-containing rock (which would pose its own health risks) RIGHT NOW because radio and TV transmissions are electromagnetic and will probably kill you, just like owning a cellphone. Doesn't actually matter whether you have a TV or radio as they're both passive devices and only receive broadcast radiation. If you live anywhere you COULD have a TV, you're being irradiated by FOX News 24/7.
    Oh, and anything using electricity? That's EM as well and by your reckoning probably not healthy.

    But all of that is moot anyway because there's sunshine every day - horrible, deadly sunshine bringing you lots and lots of mutagenic electromagnetic radiation. And that doesn't even touch on cosmic microwave (!) background radiation, which unlike the Touchstone, is actually microwaves, and which is absolutely everywhere in this universe. You can't run. You can't hide.

    The bottom line is that living isn't a particularly healthy activity and WILL eventually kill you. Electromagnetic 'smog' of the kind you are supposing the Touchstone to emit is probably the least of your worries.
    It is 'induction' using High Frequency! The picture on your TV is essentially 'induced' by the (then amplified) waves hitting the Antenna.

    Well.. I'm not getting quite as excited as you seem to like to imply here!

    But sure.. electromagnetic pollution is everywhere anyway.. and I'm not about to live in a cave or start wearing a tinfoil hat because of it!

    There is a great difference howoever, between being 'unconditionally afraid' of something and being rationally, intelligently aware and INFORMED about something! Then at least the individual is free to make a rational choice. Fear usually results from the UNknown!

    It is just as likely that dreaded Sunlight carries beneficial Photon Information Packets that in fact enhance our Genetic Evolution, as it is that the 2.4Ghz of Wifi unravels our DNA!

    The main fearless discussion I was having here anyway, is how the Touchstone managed to melt itself in the first place!

    As long as you don't work for 'BP' as well! (Nice 'clean' mob THEY are!).

    Last edited by Mutoidi; 10/14/2011 at 08:49 AM.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by gergev View Post
    It looked kewl, and doubles as a mirror.
    Wait, I'll be back in a minute to read more postings....right now I'm busy taping a mirror to the back of my touchpad...

    ...well, I would be if I had a touchpad!
    Sent from my slowly diminishing intellect

    I'm just a soul who's intentions are good...oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood!

  18. #38  
    '...well, I would be if I had a touchpad!'

    And you'd certainly also need a Touchstone, with which to complete this 'Smoke and Mirrors' Illusion!

  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mutoidi View Post
    The main fearless discussion I was having here anyway, is how the Touchstone managed to melt itself in the first place!
    Several things are likely to be at play here.

    The aluminium plate and the gap to the touchstone will have constructed a rudimentary capacitor. Ordinarily the AC nature of the current should have meant this capacitor did not build up a charge but perhaps some of the current built up on the comm's coil in the touchstone which burned out.

    Whatever the exact circumstances it seems clear that there are insufficient safety cut outs in the touchstone. Surely it should be able to cope with this (albeit not being able to charge but not burning out either). What happens if someone puts a drinks can too close to the touchstone? For the record and in the interest of experimentation I've tried doing just that with my Pre touchstone, an empty Coke can directly on the touchstone. I got no warming or anything but then there are no comm's coils in this model and maybe having a recieving coil on the other side played some part...
  20. #40  
    The inductive charger is basically a transformer woth only yhe primary coil indise the charger and the the secondary inside the touchpad. By taping a aluminium foil, you are not using the secondary coil inside the touchpad but creating a shorted secondary circuit which is the aluminium sheet. With very little resistance form the sheet, the current is goin gto be extremely high. That is going to also create very high current on the charger, hence the fried touchstone.
    Honis and Dogma like this.
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