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  1. #121  
    1) By and large, I don't think Android OEMs are making money from their tablets because nobody is buying them. If they were to potentially make money, it would be from the profit margin of each tablet and whatever ecosystems they control (Amazon's own app store, for example).

    2) I guess it's easier to stomach the idea of taking a $200 loss on each TouchPad rather than eating a $300 loss.
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  2. cashmonee's Avatar
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    #122  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    Nappy, cashmonee, CGK, and SandraW please answer a few questions for me:

    1) How does Android tablet makers make their money? Are they getting a cut from the app sales or is it solely off the hardware?

    2) Why didn't HP destroy their stock of TouchPads? They have to support each one that is sold for a year. Wouldn't it have made more financial sense to put it all in a landfill and pay the manufacturers the ridiculously low manufacturing costs? They already paid for the hardware.
    1. As I understand solely off hardware. Maybe some money through telco partnerships, but hardware is the bulk of the income.

    2. Who knows? I suspect it would have been just as costly to get all of the units back from the channel and destroy them as it would be to just sell them. I have no idea what kind of support costs are related to tablets, but I would suspect they are significantly cheaper than that of PCs.
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    #123  
    Btw, and please correct me if I am wrong, but the snapdragon, while clocked faster than the A5 is actually slower because it is an older chip. I believe this is the case. Remember clock speed is only one part of the speed equation. Chip design and optimization play a larger role.
  4. #124  
    Quote Originally Posted by nappy View Post
    Okay, let's dive into hypothetical scenarios and pretend the TouchPad is still alive and well and that HP has it on a > 1 year lifecycle. Let's also say a million people buy the TouchPad in 2011 because the specs are on par with the competition. What happens in 2012 when the TouchPad is occupying shelf space with quad core Kal-El SoCs that are also thinner and run at higher resolutions than 1024x768?

    The reality of the mobile market is companies can't care about you once you buy their current generation product. Not when there's another million people to sell tablets to and the way they do that is by going faster, lighter, and brighter.
    First of all it is not hypothetical. HP has to support the TouchPad for 1 year after purchase. HP is not trying to make money off the hardware. They are trying to make money off the software. They have said so many times yet no one seems to be listening. How many quad core Kal-El SoCs tablets are out there right now? How much are they going to cost once they do hit the market? How many tablets are on the market right now with dual-core processors? Not many.

    Your second paragraph is dead on. That is the reality in the mobile market. You proved a point I made early on. That is why most people view tablets as toys. For tablets to be taken seriously there needs to be long term support for them.
  5. #125  
    Quote Originally Posted by cashmonee View Post
    Btw, and please correct me if I am wrong, but the snapdragon, while clocked faster than the A5 is actually slower because it is an older chip. I believe this is the case. Remember clock speed is only one part of the speed equation. Chip design and optimization play a larger role.
    I'm not sure about the CPU itself but the A5's GPU is much faster than the Adreno 220, particularly when it comes to shader operations.

    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    First of all it is not hypothetical. HP has to support the TouchPad for 1 year after purchase. HP is not trying to make money off the hardware. They are trying to make money off the software. They have said so many times yet no one seems to be listening. How many quad core Kal-El SoCs tablets are out there right now? How much are they going to cost once they do hit the market? How many tablets are on the market right now with dual-core processors? Not many.
    How are they going to make money from the software when nobody wants to license it? I guess they have their 30% cut from the App Catalog, but judging from the quality of apps on my TouchPad, that's going to be a tough sell in volume. Plus, I think they're subsidizing developers who get featured in their 6 pack promotions so, if anything, they're probably losing money on the App Catalog.
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  6. #126  
    Quote Originally Posted by cashmonee View Post
    Btw, and please correct me if I am wrong, but the snapdragon, while clocked faster than the A5 is actually slower because it is an older chip. I believe this is the case. Remember clock speed is only one part of the speed equation. Chip design and optimization play a larger role.
    Yes, according to Apple. However, weren't PPCs supposedly faster than x86 processors?
  7. #127  
    Quote Originally Posted by nappy View Post
    I'm not sure about the CPU itself but the A5's GPU is much faster than the Adreno 220, particularly when it comes to shader operations.
    Is it faster overall or faster at shader operations?
  8. cashmonee's Avatar
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    #128  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    First of all it is not hypothetical. HP has to support the TouchPad for 1 year after purchase. HP is not trying to make money off the hardware. They are trying to make money off the software. They have said so many times yet no one seems to be listening. How many quad core Kal-El SoCs tablets are out there right now? How much are they going to cost once they do hit the market? How many tablets are on the market right now with dual-core processors? Not many.

    Your second paragraph is dead on. That is the reality in the mobile market. You proved a point I made early on. That is why most people view tablets as toys. For tablets to be taken seriously there needs to be long term support for them.
    I think you are confusing support and marketing. Tablets will be supported for a minimum of 2 years (iPads at least), but so far are only sold and marketed for a year before being replaced. In this sense, it is similar to PCs. While people don't buy new ones each year, manufacturers release new products yearly. Not coincidentally, subsidized PCs have never worked either. And if hp is trying to make money off the software in tablets, they are nuts. I don't believe there is any money in software for tablet makers.
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    #129  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    Yes, according to Apple. However, weren't PPCs supposedly faster than x86 processors?
    I don't believe Apple is the only one saying this. The ARM architecture that the A5 is based on is newer and faster than what Snapdragon is based on.
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  10. #130  
    I think the Oct ones are US only?
    Hopeless for me....
  11. #131  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    Is it faster overall or faster at shader operations?
    I think it's faster overall and you even get things like FSAA for free with it. Anand wrote a pretty interesting piece on the A5 a while ago...let me see if I can find it.

    got it: http://www.anandtech.com/show/4225/the-ipad-2-review/4
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  12. #132  
    Quote Originally Posted by cashmonee View Post
    1. As I understand solely off hardware. Maybe some money through telco partnerships, but hardware is the bulk of the income.

    2. Who knows? I suspect it would have been just as costly to get all of the units back from the channel and destroy them as it would be to just sell them. I have no idea what kind of support costs are related to tablets, but I would suspect they are significantly cheaper than that of PCs.
    The questions were loaded. Only two tablet companies make money on hardware, software, and services: Apple and HP. HP also makes money off of accessories. The three biggest accessories for the TouchPad are the Case, Touchstone, and Keyboard which HP makes.

    Knowing this and HP's early statements about wanting to become strictly a software and services company, wouldn't that make you wonder if the TouchPad is just a Trojan Horse for webOS? HP dumped them on everyone to beef up their software and services arm.
  13. #133  
    Quote Originally Posted by nappy View Post
    but judging from the quality of apps on my TouchPad, that's going to be a tough sell in volume.
    You can attack the number of apps all you want, but don't ever attack the quality. I use webOS, iOS, and Android and I have to say the webOS apps are way higher quality than most Android and iOS apps. The few developers we have do a great job. For the small number that do have quality issues simply PM'd them will get whatever problems fixed. Don't use this thread to attack our developer community.
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  14. #134  
    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    The questions were loaded. Only two tablet companies make money on hardware, software, and services: Apple and HP. HP also makes money off of accessories. The three biggest accessories for the TouchPad are the Case, Touchstone, and Keyboard which HP makes.

    Knowing this and HP's early statements about wanting to become strictly a software and services company, wouldn't that make you wonder if the TouchPad is just a Trojan Horse for webOS? HP dumped them on everyone to beef up their software and services arm.
    Yeah, I think you're reaching here. HP's investment in Palm turned out to be a bust. They lost money on the TouchPad. They lost even more money clearing out the TouchPad. Their own internal forecasts present a best case scenario where they'd have to keep dumping money into webOS for half a decade before potentially seeing rewards.

    webOS is a lot of things but profitable has never been one of them. Just ask Elevation Partners, Palm, and HP.

    Quote Originally Posted by k4ever View Post
    You can attack the number of apps all you want, but don't ever attack the quality. I use webOS, iOS, and Android and I have to say the webOS apps are way higher quality than most Android and iOS apps. The few developers we have do a great job. For the small number that do have quality issues simply PM'd them will get whatever problems fixed. Don't use this thread to attack our developer community.
    That's just not true though. It's not even a matter of taste. Look at something like Spaz HD vs Tweetbot. Adobe Reader vs GoodReader. Paper Mache vs Instapaper. NomNomNom vs Reeder. Hell, just compare the performance and functionality differences between QuickOffice on different platforms. webOS apps are slower and offer less functionality than their iOS/Android counterparts across the board.
  15. #135  
    Quote Originally Posted by nappy View Post
    Yeah, I think you're reaching here. HP's investment in Palm turned out to be a bust. They lost money on the TouchPad. They lost even more money clearing out the TouchPad. Their own internal forecasts present a best case scenario where they'd have to keep dumping money into webOS for half a decade before potentially seeing rewards.

    webOS is a lot of things but profitable has never been one of them. Just ask Elevation Partners, Palm, and HP.



    That's just not true though. It's not even a matter of taste. Look at something like Spaz HD vs Tweetbot. Adobe Reader vs GoodReader. Paper Mache vs Instapaper. NomNomNom vs Reeder. Hell, just compare the performance and functionality differences between QuickOffice on different platforms. webOS apps are slower and offer less functionality than their iOS/Android counterparts across the board.
    The slowness has to do with the platform, not the app. Also, slowness and functionality have nothing to do with quality. Toyotas are slow and built like toasters, but they a very high quality cars. There are apps on webOS that look stunning just like their iOS counterparts but they may not have all the features because the platform doesn't support them or the developers did not get the APIs.

    Edit: The topic is about 800,000-900,000 TouchPads sold, not app quality which is subjective and most of us will definitely disagree with you on.
  16. #136  
    Quote Originally Posted by bugmenot View Post
    The only thing wrong with the Touchpad and the reason it didn't sell is WebOS.
    it sold extremely well at 99, I am gonna go out of my way to say it would have sold great if it were $300 from the start.
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  17. #137  
    Quote Originally Posted by bugmenot View Post
    The only thing wrong with the Touchpad and the reason it didn't sell is WebOS.
    The only reason it didn't sell well is insane pricing, and lack of few features. State of webOS is why TouchPad is not good, but that is not reason for fiasco.
  18. #138  
    Wow you guys are coming out of the wood works. Don't you just hate the title of this thread? 800,000 to 900,000 TouchPads sold with another 100,000-200,000 on the way and practically sold already? New webOS users who are actually positive about the OS and want to do more for it. Must chap your hide. How dare the Touchpad pull to number 2 in the tablet world. Doom and gloom, darn it! Doom and gloom! That's all webOS is good for. You folks spreading positives need to get with the picture by God! WebOS is dead! We held the funeral when the Pre did not sell well. Didn't you 800,000 to 900,000 new guys get the memo? Quit making new threads saying positive things or we will continue to invade them and spread our negative views. You can only worship mediocre Apple products. No fun darn it! No funnnn.......
  19. #139  
    Quote Originally Posted by bugmenot View Post
    The only thing wrong with the Touchpad and the reason it didn't sell is WebOS. I mean seriously how could you think something this buggy and with so few apps could sell well? The concept of the OS is fantastic, but in implementation its absolutely atrocious. Browser is easily the worst I have ever used on any mobile OS including WM 6.5. No stock e-reader app? Slow until you overclock it and patch it to hell? I mean seriously. I DO hope HP keeps making tablets and selling them for significant losses because I will continue buying them and will convert them to Android tablets. Its a shame WebOS never could mature, but don't delude yourselves into thinking it will rise like a phoenix and take even 4th or 5th place in the mobile market.
    There is absolutely no way you have used the acer iconia or almost any Android honeycomb tab or Android phone browser if you think this is the worse. I have an Android phone and had a honeycomb tab. Flash on tablets is buggy and often freezes, tabed forum browsing on Android phones is bad. Editing text sucks. I preferred wm6.5. I have trouble believing you own a webos tab or spent any time with it. Is it as smooth as an iPad obviously not.
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  20. #140  
    Quote Originally Posted by ahbroody View Post
    There is absolutely no way you have used the acer iconia or almost any Android honeycomb tab or Android phone browser if you think this is the worse. I have an Android phone and had a honeycomb tab. Flash on tablets is buggy and often freezes, tabed forum browsing on Android phones is bad. Editing text sucks. I preferred wm6.5. I have trouble believing you own a webos tab or spent any time with it. Is it as smooth as an iPad obviously not.
    I have an android phone and find aspects of the browser superior to the TouchPad's browser. The main one is opening links in the background (much better on my phone as pages will actually load in the background).

    As far as editing text, there is no way it's worse than what's currently going on in webOS. Selecting text, placing your cursor where you want, much easier than on the TouchPad.

    That doesn't mean webOS or the TouchPad sucks. There's just plenty of room for improvement.
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