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  1.    #1  
    There are some threads about the values Dr.Battery is showing on the TouchPad.
    I would like to summarize questions and answers in this thread:

    Are the values accurate?
    -old devices-
    In the old devices (pre-/+/2, Pixi-/+) webOS was talking to the chip inside the battery directly through an open source driver. This driver also gave access to the raw registers of the battery. We found out what chip was used. Dr.Battery was doing all the calculation (transformation from register values into readable values) by it's own. So I was sure the result was correct as described in the manual of this chip.
    -new devices-
    The new devices (Veer, Pre3, TouchPad) are communicating to the (unknown) battery chip through the new A6 chip which is also responsible for touch to share. The sources of the battery driver aren’t open source anymore. The interface to the register is not present anymore.
    There are some interface driver files which allows reading of the values. The kernel is doing the register reading and translation into readable values now. Since it's not open source I don't know how accurate they are.

    Systemmenu shows 100% but Dr.Battery says 97%?
    For some reasons (hiding the charge/discharge loop while on charger) the system menu doesn't show the actual capacity.
    This has been since the beginning of webOS.
    There is a patch to change that but idk if avail for TP.

    My manufacturer rating is only 5647 mAh
    We have some reports about this already. Most of the devices have a manufacturer rating (MFR) of around 6612mAh and a health of 95% which results in a capacity of 6281mAh. To prove the real capacity a calibration would be necessary. Because of the mentioned changes, calibration isn’t possible on the new devices.
    So I don’t know if you have a bad battery. But it’s odd, that some batteries are showing such value.
    Update: Seems to be confirmed that there are two types of batteries in the touchpads.

    My capacity shows 6281mAh but charging stops at 5500mAh
    We all see this behavior. As mentioned above I don’t know how accurate these values are. I wouldn’t be concerned about it, since we all see it.

    My health shows 95% but this is a new battery?
    This is recommended by battery manufactures.
    From the manual of the (old) battery chip:
    A value of 95% is recommended as the starting AS value at the time of pack manufacture to allow the learning of a larger capacity on batteries that have an initial capacity greater than the rated cell capacity programmed in the cell characteristic table.
    Is it safe to leave the TP on the touchstone all the time?
    I think yes. The behavior has improved since the pre. Read my findings here:
    Behavior of the new devices while charging | webOSroundup
    EDIT: Same is true for wall charger (thanks dacrazydude)

    I will update Dr.Battery to run fullscreen in the future and maybe include en exhibition mode as well
    EDIT: A new Version is available with fullscreen. Sorry no exhibition mode
    .
    Last edited by somline; 11/28/2011 at 01:57 AM.
  2. #2  
    What about if you're not using the touchstone?
  3.    #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by dacrazydude View Post
    What about if you're not using the touchstone?
    Thanks for mention that:
    It's the same. First post updated.
  4. gharkay's Avatar
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    #4  
    Hello somline,

    The battery charging behavior of webOS devices is something that has interested me for a while because I'm a bit OCD about maintaining my battery life, especially with the non-replaceable (without a crazy amount of work) battery in the TouchPad.

    I'm curious about your theory regarding the new charging algorithms based on the A6 chip in the TouchPad versus the behavior in the older devices. You have stated that you feel better about leaving your TouchPad on the touchstone all the time because it seems to switch over to being powered only by the charger after the battery is full. I would like to believe this is true, but I'm wondering if the ~15 mA drain we see isn't just the result of the charging circuit taking just what it needs while running that current through the battery. In other words, I think the TouchPad should still be running off the battery, but now the charger is supplying almost exactly what is need by the TouchPad to maintain the battery at 100% charge. It is true, as you mentioned elsewhere, that it is possible for a device can run straight from the charger without using the battery because it is possible to swap a battery while the device is plugged in. However, there is only a short window during which you can swap the battery before the device shuts down completely. My guess for why this behavior exists is that the battery is used to condition the power signal coming from the charger, much like a UPS for a computer, and Palm didn't want to trust the signal coming straight from the charger. That is just a theory, of course.

    Anyhow, my concern is that even though there is only a small overall negative current for the battery in the TouchPad at 100% when it is plugged in or on the touchstone, the battery is actually still being used to power the device while it is simultaneously being charged at exactly the correct rate to maintain 100% charge.

    From reading a number of articles on battery life and charging, I have come to understand that the biggest enemies of battery life in a Li-Ion batter are heat, deep discharges, high voltages (such as those reached at and beyond 100% charge during the trickle charge phase), just plain usage, and aging (an unused Li-ion battery will go bad over time).

    If the TouchPad maintains the full 4.2 V on the battery cells the whole time it is charging at 100%, then I think this is probably worse for battery life than the 95-100% discharge cycle seen in the older devices UNLESS it is true that the TouchPad really isn't using the battery at all in this scenario. The good thing about the 95-100% discharge cycle in my Pre 2 is that the battery is allowed to drop to a lower voltage state once 100% charge has been reached.

    I also still have concerns over the heat buildup in my Pre 2 as a result of using the touchstone as heat is probably the #1 enemy of Li-ion batteries, but I suppose that is a topic for another thread.

    As far as I can tell, an ideal (but unrealistic) usage case for a Li-ion battery is to keep it below 30 C while using it from 95% down to maybe 90%, turning off as many things that use the battery as possible while charging it back up to 95%, and repeating this cycle. This would avoid excessive heat, deep discharging, and higher voltages.

    I wish that webOS gave us an option to only charge to 4.1 V rather than the full 4.2 V because this should, in theory, extend battery life at the cost of some battery run time. I know that some laptops have such an option where you can choose either overall battery life longevity or maximum battery run time. Then I would be much less concerned about leaving my device on the touchstone all the time. Right now I generally pull it off once it reaches 100% in order to avoid the higher voltages that come with the trickle charge portion of the charging curve, not to mention the heat buildup that seems to be much more of an issue with the webOS phones than the TouchPad.

    Sorry for the really long post. What do you think about all that?
    Palm IIIxe => Handspring Visor Prism => Palm Treo 650 => Palm Treo 755p => Palm Pre Plus => Palm Pre 2 + TouchPad
  5. #5  
    Two finding here: Both purchased on the 26th of August:

    1) My TP came up with 6281 at a health of 95%
    2) My wife's TP came in at 5647 with a health of 100% meaning the manufacture's battery capacity is also at 5647 which is below specs.

    Do you think my wife's TP has a bad battery? If so why would the battery life come back at 100% thus the capacity rating is below specs. I am completely confused. Any insight would be helpful.

    Thanks.
  6.    #6  
    @BayAreaTrea
    Your TouchPad is exactly as it should be. The TP has a spec for the battery of 6300mAh. You battery has 6281mAh which is within a +/- tolerance of 5%. The manufacturer rating is higher than specified and health is 95% to compensate that.

    You wife's battery capacity is to low. As mentioned in the first post I don't know how accurate the values are, and these are just numbers. Would be interesting if the runtime of both devices is the same. If you have the time you could charge both devices to 100%, switch of wifi and run something what drains the battery like video or a game in demomode. Let's see which TP shutsdown first.
    If this would be a battery for the old devices I would suggest to send the battery back for an exchange. But it isn't.
  7. #7  
    Somline,

    I will do exactly that, it will have to be later today but I will report back soon. Thank for the reply.
  8.    #8  
    A Member tried to exchange a TP with 5647mAh:
    Well HP won't do a thing about my wife's TP, they stated your APP reports wrong data and that if they battery test (official HP os app) comes up green then the battery is fine. Any suggestions?
    This was my answer:
    They don't know what my app is doing and have no clue about batteries and webOS.
    You have to tell them, that the runtime of the TP from you wife is terrible compared to yours. It may even suddenly jump from 10-20% to 0% and shutsdown.
    I don't know yet what the webOS test of the battery is doing. I think it just reads the health.
    It's common that they don't trust 3th party apps.
    We had the same problem in the past with the pre's battery.
    Don't tell them about Dr.Battery. They (as other companies) don't trust 3th party apps.
    Last edited by somline; 09/02/2011 at 11:45 AM.
  9.    #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel Donkey View Post
    Hello somline,

    The battery charging behavior of webOS devices is something that has interested me for a while because I'm a bit OCD about maintaining my battery life, especially with the non-replaceable (without a crazy amount of work) battery in the TouchPad.
    ......
    Sorry for the really long post. What do you think about all that?
    Thanks Diesel Donkey for you interesting post.
    I need some time to respond and will do so as soon as I have time for some research.
  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by BayAreaTreo View Post
    Two finding here: Both purchased on the 26th of August:

    1) My TP came up with 6281 at a health of 95%
    2) My wife's TP came in at 5647 with a health of 100% meaning the manufacture's battery capacity is also at 5647 which is below specs.

    Do you think my wife's TP has a bad battery? If so why would the battery life come back at 100% thus the capacity rating is below specs. I am completely confused. Any insight would be helpful.

    Thanks.
    Well here is an update:

    HP did indeed agree there was an issue with TP number 2 thus they are sending out an advance replacement. I am a bit concerned that I maybe trading off one problem for another due to the fact the replacement will be a "reconditioned," unit. Not sure what that means but I would prefer a brand new out of the box never touched unit since the defective unit is 5 days old but at $99 beggars can't be choosers.
  11. DreamScar's Avatar
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    #11  
    BayAreaTreo, please update us when you get the new unit and let us know if you get the same low reading or not.

    thanks

    edit - also, what version is the touchpad with the low battery? Mine is a 16gb
  12. #12  
    I've found out that the touchtone is not a viable way of actually charging the touchpad. It's just there so your battery doesn't drain while using it. My touchtone only charges my battery about 1% every 20 minutes or so (full brightness, watching video). Even with it being in exhibition mode it charges it VERY slowly.


    500 or so with only Govnah open full brightness on the Touchstone, is that average?
    Last edited by suikostinger; 09/03/2011 at 01:21 AM.
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by DreamScar View Post
    BayAreaTreo, please update us when you get the new unit and let us know if you get the same low reading or not.

    thanks

    edit - also, what version is the touchpad with the low battery? Mine is a 16gb
    16gb I will update asap
  14. DreamScar's Avatar
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    #14  
    it seems every touchpad that has this low/bad battery reading is a 16gb model...
  15.    #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by suikostinger View Post
    I've found out that the touchtone is not a viable way of actually charging the touchpad. It's just there so your battery doesn't drain while using it. My touchtone only charges my battery about 1% every 20 minutes or so (full brightness, watching video). Even with it being in exhibition mode it charges it VERY slowly.


    500 or so with only Govnah open full brightness on the Touchstone, is that average?
    I made a test with mine. Only Dr.Battery running full brightness at 82% charge no exhibition it charges with 430mA on TS (HP case on).
    Using USB it charges with 840mAh.
    Please remember that the charging current depends on the charge level.
    So higher the charge level so lower the charging current.
  16. #16  
    So I ran a test of my own today. I have a 16GB touchpad, with a battery capacity of 5647mAh per Dr. Battery. Wifi off, max brightness, looping a movie in the native video player, my touchpad lasted 4 hours and 57 minutes until it shut down. How does this compare? From my understanding, it should have lasted in excess of 8 hours under these conditions, but even with the rated capacity of 6300mAh, it would have only extended it by about 13%.

    More information (may be important of course lol):
    running uberkernel at 1.5ghz, ondemandtcl, sampling rate .1s, up threshold 65%, max tickle window 2s, max floor window 3s, and various patches applied (minimize logging and messages). I can't see these making more than a 10% difference in either direction, so say it lastet 5 hours 30 minutes stock.

    Also, spoke to HP support, and they insisted I send them my device logs before they could do anything at all about this.
    felixdd likes this.
  17. #17  
    I have a 16GB Touchpad which reports 5647mah. I noticed that the Ifixit site have recently posted instructions on how to open a Touchpad, interestingly their pictures show a 6000mah battery.
    This would probably explain why many users are seeing 5647mah as the manufacturers rating. (My guess is HP down rate 6000mah to 5647mah, ie capacity 94% of max rated)

    See here for the picture (about third picture down)
    Installing HP TouchPad Battery - Page 3 - iFixit

    Battery here
    Installing HP TouchPad Battery - iFixit
    Last edited by Techy; 09/04/2011 at 03:11 AM.
  18. DreamScar's Avatar
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    #18  
    so does that mean there are two different batteries depending on which version of the TP you have?
  19. #19  
    The HP website states that the battery is 6300mah, but there is probably a clause somewhere that says "technical spec's may change without notice".
    My guess is that parts are sourced from many places and some units have 6300mah and some have 6000mah. This would tie in with what people are reporting.

    So yes, it would appear as if there are two batteries in circulation, with capacities within 5% of each other. I am not sure if they are fitted to particular models ie 16GB/32GB or at random depending on what was available during manufacture.
    Last edited by Techy; 09/04/2011 at 03:53 AM.
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by Techy View Post
    The HP website states that the battery is 6300mah, but there is probably a clause somewhere that says "technical spec's may change without notice".
    My guess is that parts are sourced from many places and some units have 6300mah and some have 6000mah. This would tie in with what people are reporting.

    So yes, it would appear as if there are two batteries in circulation, with capacities within 5% of each other. I am not sure if they are fitted to particular models ie 16GB/32GB or at random depending on what was available during manufacture.
    I have two 16 gb one with 6281 and one with 5647. I suspected two
    different model batteries.
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