Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 115
Like Tree40Likes
  1. #61  
    I'm just wondering how many times the comparison to the 360 and PS3 has to be swatted down before people stop bringing it back up?
    SnotBoogie and xtremeview like this.
  2. cdoty's Avatar
    Posts
    47 Posts
    Global Posts
    53 Global Posts
    #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    HP stated in an Earnings Conference Call and SEC quarterly filing that they were ending production of webOS devices.

    HP already knew that the TouchPad would sell out in a weekend at $299 as they saw with the Staples coupon but they instead priced it at $99 instead and declared webOS devices dead.
    Ending production can mean a lot. If they still have a contract with the manufacture, finishing out the contract and using up the remaining parts could make more (or at least as much) financial sense, and could add some WebOS users.

    At $99 it's an unsupported device, at $299 support would be expected.
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by cdoty View Post
    At $99 it's an unsupported device, at $299 support would be expected.

    The $99 Touchpad comes with a complete warranty and normal support options, just as it did before the announcement. Nothing has changed there.
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by sorli View Post
    Sure...why not! Microsoft and their Xbox360 took loses for 2 years before it became the gaming force it is today
    Not the same. According to a Businessweek study done buy isuppli Microsoft in 2005 lost $125 on each 360 it sold. Microsoft taking $126 hit per Xbox 360 - News at GameSpot (Notably, almost half of what HP is losing on the TP.) But the big point is Microsoft developed and published it's own highly profitable games through Microsoft Game Studios. Look at what Microsoft is and always has been. Microsoft was flat out a software company already. But not only that it had already been making PC games so this wasn't something totally new. By contrast HP is not a software company. They are a hardware company trying to learn to sell software, and largely enterprise software at that. So they aren't going to just start making great software for consumers all of a sudden. Not saying never but it takes time and vision. And from what i've heard of HP play it's not yet their strong suit.

    The software HP would be making would not nearly cover the loss like Microsoft selling one halo game would cover their xbox loss. One xbox sale probably covers half the xbox 360 loss. One touchpad game sold at say 99 cents to $5 won't remotely cover half the loss. Microsoft was making or publishing "must have games" like Halo. It brought people to the platform. HP has no such app yet that's has been able to do that. Hell i don't think Apple has any single tablet or phone app that means as much to ios as Halo as a franchise meant to xbox and xbox 360. And even so if you look at most of Apple's tablet and phone apps they are part of the OS. They are free. Thus they don't generate revenue other then being one more "feature." Like garageband is free on a ipad isn't it? so that's the market. It would be hard for HP to come in and then try charge every user for every little app. They'd have to be at least be much better then the average app fair. Like does apple charge for final cut or imovie on a tablet? Like something upgraded like that. But Halo was just one of several apps they could profit from.

    You can hardly rely on people to buy apps. Let alone enough to cover losses. I don't buy apps for my pre for varied reasons i won't go into. But even if they do there's no need to. The phone/tablet works ok without them. A 360 is basically useless, especially in 2005 you buy a game. So Microsoft could expect people to buy games. Plus Halo is a Microsoft published franchise and it's massive and like a sequel to a tent-pole movie, it's got return buyers on a regular basis to rely on as profit with every new version of Halo. People won't keep buying new versions of that $5 app. Most will likely expect a free upgrade.

    Microsoft was not struggling financially when they introduced the 360 and had the cash to burn. Microsoft had $35 billion in cash in 2005 and earnings of 1 billion per month. source: Microsoft names Chris Liddell CFO - Computerworld HP i don't think is on similar financial footing. HP as $12.9 billion in cash reserves and just spent $10.25 billion of that on Autonomy Why HP is betting the farm on Autonomy — Tech News and Analysis So it doesn't have tons of cash doing nothing like Microsoft did to float tablet losses. They have just around $2 billion in cash. And add to that theat they, according to the conference call, were losing $332 billion per quarter on webos, and they'd be eating into that cash reserve at an alarming rate. And if you really want to know why HP's stock has been pummeled it's not cause of Webos. That's merely a manifestation of failure. It's because people think its, one, crazy to pay 80% of you're cash reserves on something unknown to most investors just to get your *** kicked by IBM, and second, they think they over paid in paying $10.25 billion. All that coupled with the decision to sever itself from a declining, but still profitable, division and it's largest by revenue division. But i digress the point is HP is not in a situation similar to what Microsoft was in at the time they were launching 360s. HP has had declining profits in their biggest departments in a sour economy so HP lacks the flexibility to just take losses. The unwillingness to carry losing business was flat out mentioned it in May of this year in a memo. “We have absolutely no room for profitless revenue or any discretionary expenditures.” HP CEO Expects 'Tough Third Quarter,' Memo Says - BusinessWeek that was in May when they had no room. Then months later it was true. It was a bad quarter. So they likely have less room for profitless revenue not more. That's exactly what floating a product with a $207 loss is. The very profitless revenue they had no time for.

    Microsoft as a publisher also generates revenue from publishing 1st and 3rd party games. Just a few minor ones like Gears of War and Mass Effect. That sort of stuff is just more revenue. And again you're talking about games that cost a penny disk and a burner to manufacture. After a while it's just lots of profit at $60 a pop.

    Add to that the current revenue streams they didn't have back at launch like selling avatar items, selling game add ons, a cut from other companies selling add ons and map packs, xbox live online gaming subscriptions (which actually were around in 2005 but you get the point), movies, licensing fees from espn, netflix, facebook, twitter just to be on the xbox live panel page, etc and they really can take losses on hardware because they have countless areas to make it back quickly. Hell, they'll make most of the loss back if they sell one $40 xbox live account, a $40 second controller and one $60 game. Right there, $140. Loss erased. And they do that often the very day a console is bought.

    Quote Originally Posted by jrstinkfish View Post
    I'm just wondering how many times the comparison to the 360 and PS3 has to be swatted down before people stop bringing it back up?
    Last edited by SnotBoogie; 08/31/2011 at 02:43 AM.
    You come at the king. You best not miss.
    cgk likes this.
  5. #65  
    Todd Bradley was in the running for CEO ans was thought to have the job. He runs PSG now. I think he would have been a nice choice. Ever since HP started hiring CEO's for outside the company it has gone to hell.

    Totally agree. Being a more than 13 years faithful palm user, I felt very hurt by what this HP's leo have done.
    xtremeview likes this.
  6. redmist's Avatar
    Posts
    674 Posts
    Global Posts
    679 Global Posts
    #66  
    RE: xbox/PS3 comparisons..

    HP *USED* to be a hardware company trying to sell software.

    Next year it will be a software/services company.
    Pilot 5000 > Pre > Pre2 > Pre3 > Galaxy Nexus
    TouchPad > Galaxy Tab 8.9
  7. #67  
    lol....

    So, um, do some math. Let's assume HP is losing $200 per unit.

    HP takes 30% of each app sale. Devs, does HP get a cut of any 'in app' purchases like Apple does?

    If you think HP could continue to sell at firesale prices and make the hardware losses back in apps sales then HP would need to sell about $670 in apps per TouchPad without even considering overhead in the apps store.

    So um...how y'all coming on that, eh?

    Anyone got an average amount spent in Apple's app store?

    Anyone bored enough to add up the purchase price of every TP app in the catalog?
  8. #68  
    so...um...to make it more depressing I just ran through the app catalog with a 'touchpad' search term (since there isn't a better way to find TP 'optimized' apps.

    Note: the catalog doesn't show the cost for apps already purchased. So I added $65 to the total I came up with to account for what I've spent so far (estimated)

    There's a margin of error here, but I come up with a total of about $485 worth of purchasable apps in the app store. I'll be generous and say I screwed up by $15 and we'll call it $500.

    Then you look at the 'long tail' nature of apps stores. I saw a 2009 article which looked at the iphone app store. Of the folks surveyed they only had something 15k unique apps on their phones...out of the 65k available in the store. This suggests that one can expect about 25% of the apps to have some sort of real presence in the market (note it still doesn't suggest that everyone buys all of them).

    This might also suggest why Apple is so keen on getting a take of each in app purchase.

    So...still think the tablet space can support an x-box-esque market strategy?
  9. #69  
    <<sorry, dup post>>
    Last edited by stiekes; 08/31/2011 at 09:31 AM.
  10. #70  
    I think some you may be forgetting money made from accessories, just sayin.
  11. #71  
    it's a fair point...but they also went into firesale

    believe me, I want this 2 work....but it's got to make sense. And remember, HP is not unfamiliar with this approach to business. IPG isn't a printer group, it's an ink group.
    Last edited by stiekes; 08/31/2011 at 09:32 AM.
  12. palmless's Avatar
    Posts
    19 Posts
    Global Posts
    565 Global Posts
    #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by jbg7474 View Post
    ...Their senior leadership would look even more unstable than they already do if they reversed themselves again.
    Well said.

    Oh look...

    "Despite announcing an end to manufacturing webOS hardware, we have decided to produce one last run of TouchPads to meet unfulfilled demand," HP spokesman Mark Budgell wrote in a company blog post. "As we know more about how, when and where TouchPads will be available, we will communicate that here and through e-mail to those who requested notification."
  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by yourdiyguy View Post
    I think some you may be forgetting money made from accessories, just sayin.
    Still doesn't cover the $200 loss per unit. You are counting on everyone buying HP branded accessories too, which doesn't always happen in a world where you can buy knockoff chargers and cases on eBay for $5.

    With tablets, there just isn't much to justify selling at a loss. Even if the TouchPad cost $300 to make (not counting advertising and paying staff who support the tablet), HP would still need to price it at least $50-100 above that because they are in the business of making a profit, not just squeaking by a few bucks profit per tablet.

    At this point in the tablet era, I don't think I'd even trust a tablet with an MSRP under $300. Too many corners cut to get to that price. I had a Pre literally fall apart in my hands after less than a year, so no more cheap build quality for me.
  14. redmist's Avatar
    Posts
    674 Posts
    Global Posts
    679 Global Posts
    #74  
    Maybe Samsung will buy webOS JUST to stop HP from flooding the market with cheap tablets
    Pilot 5000 > Pre > Pre2 > Pre3 > Galaxy Nexus
    TouchPad > Galaxy Tab 8.9
  15. #75  
    I'm not saying they will recoup their losses on this immediately but it is possible that in the long run this will turn out t be a great thing for webOS (attracting new users). Do I think they intended to do this... No, but maybe they will take their heads out of their ***** and realize they have the possibility to grow the user base of webOS tremendously with taking a loss for the short term.
  16. #76  
    hp wants to license webos. I don't know why this guy keeps talking about how they won't make money on apps. Hp wants to make money on webos. The apps are not the money maker. They are selling to get the product out in the public mind. The product is not the touchpad it is webos.
  17. samab's Avatar
    Posts
    743 Posts
    Global Posts
    2,060 Global Posts
    #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by yourdiyguy View Post
    I'm not saying they will recoup their losses on this immediately but it is possible that in the long run this will turn out t be a great thing for webOS (attracting new users). Do I think they intended to do this... No, but maybe they will take their heads out of their ***** and realize they have the possibility to grow the user base of webOS tremendously with taking a loss for the short term.
    But it's not short term loss --- when Microsoft just paid a few billion dollars to Nokia and is really giving a lot of money to bring developers on board.

    Ballmer made a decision to take a long term bet and Gates agreed on it. Wall Street can't stop them.

    HP CEO is a salaryman and the HP board of directors are all salarymen. There is no single big shareholder at HP. They do have to listen to their shareholders (the mutual fund people).
  18. #78  
    and xbox was launched in 2005 with the expectation they would be profitable in 2008. They lost 5 billion dollars!
  19. #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by stiekes View Post
    lol....

    So, um, do some math. Let's assume HP is losing $200 per unit.

    HP takes 30% of each app sale. Devs, does HP get a cut of any 'in app' purchases like Apple does?

    If you think HP could continue to sell at firesale prices and make the hardware losses back in apps sales then HP would need to sell about $670 in apps per TouchPad without even considering overhead in the apps store.

    So um...how y'all coming on that, eh?

    Anyone got an average amount spent in Apple's app store?

    Anyone bored enough to add up the purchase price of every TP app in the catalog?
    HP will never make up for each $200 loss from a Touchpad. Let's just give up on that idea. But since they are establishing user base now, the money is in future products... wherever webOS may be then. If/when they are released, there will be an established user base that'll more readily accept the new webOS devices... as long as it doesn't take another 2 years for this to happen. Release the solid webOS product in the next 9 months and there's a chance. If they are smart enough to take advantage of this wave they created however unintentional. They just have to do it before the wave dies.
  20. samab's Avatar
    Posts
    743 Posts
    Global Posts
    2,060 Global Posts
    #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by bigwood212 View Post
    and xbox was launched in 2005 with the expectation they would be profitable in 2008. They lost 5 billion dollars!
    And the reason why Microsoft can do it is --- Ballmer would never get fired as long as he has the continued confidence of just one man, Bill Gates.

    Sony can do it for the PS3 --- because Japanese shareholders are completely docile and useless.

    Japan Society, New York - Tipping the Scales: The Evolution of Shareholder Rights in Japan

    HP can't do either. There is no founder holding a large percentage of shares of the company to backstop any bad news. And there is no such thing as docile shareholders in the US.
Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast

Posting Permissions