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  1. samab's Avatar
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    #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by LCGuy View Post
    They projected 4 -5 million TP sales this year, with a July launch.

    Do the math.

    The "projection" came from (1) unreliable Taiwanese press, (2) in February 2011 (before Apple MISSED Wall Street's ipad sales numbers BY A MILE) and (3) with HP shipping in April 2011.

    HP's TouchPad Could Be Coming As Soon As April

    After Apple MISSED their ipad sales numbers BY A MILE, Wall Street cut every forecast on all the other tablet platforms sales figure by at least half.
  2. cgk
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    #62  
    The story that a lot of people are clinging to is that Samsung have already Licensed webOS but for convoluted reasons must fire-sale all of the stock.

    Where people get such odd ideas is beyond me especially as it requires HP exes to mislead the market and risk jail time by providing misleading information to the market.
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    .And, I can only imagine how it's scared away potential suitors. I mean, my golly, I'd be pretty ticked off if I were a company (say, Samsung) thinking about buying the PSG, including webOS, and HP pulled this stunt.
    Ever consider the possibility a potential suitor may have forced HP to "Pull this stunt" so they 1). would walk into the game with increased market share and 2). make sure that HP doesn't have any webOS products left lingering in their distribution channels when the deals 1). to take over HP PSG and 2). to license webOS from HP are announced together.

    I kow I am assuming a lot here, but this scenario is certainly plausable.
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    I am an AT&T employee and the postings on this site are my own and donít necessarily represent AT&Tís positions, strategies or opinions.
  4. #64  
    TouchStone sounded awesome but at the price for the charger and added weight, thickness and price, I think it might've been better off dropped.

    Have to give credit for trying to innovate and truly cut the cord though, induction charging WILL be the future after all.
  5. samab's Avatar
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    #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by TopTongueBarry View Post
    Ever consider the possibility a potential suitor may have forced HP to "Pull this stunt" so they 1). would walk into the game with increased market share and 2). make sure that HP doesn't have any webOS products left lingering in their distribution channels when the deals 1). to take over HP PSG and 2). to license webOS from HP are announced together.

    I kow I am assuming a lot here, but this scenario is certainly plausable.
    It's not plausable at all because you can sign a deal specifying that HP would get out of the hardware business in x number of months.
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by neller2000 View Post
    I'm not sure what conflicting information you're talking about. HP cancels the production of the Touchpad. That means it sold like crap. FACT. HP discontinues production of all WebOS devices immediately. That means anything WebOS, not just the Touchpad, ANYTHING they were trying to push with WebOS sold like crap. FACT.

    It doesn't take a business major to know the sales were absolutely horrible. I know a guy who works at the local Walmart in electronics. They sold TWO of the initial 15 Touchpads they had. TWO. Then 2 people bought the rest online and picked them up after they dropped to $99. I was one of the two.

    However the iPad display is always empty.
    The Pre 3 was not sold. FACT. Look if you are going to go around throwing out FACTs you need to provide us with actual data and sources. HP prematurely killed off webOS hardware. I suspect that they did this to stay in line with killing of their PC hardware and trying to become a software services company. I say suspect because just like you I have no FACTs to back it up.
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by dong1225 View Post
    TouchStone sounded awesome but at the price for the charger and added weight, thickness and price, I think it might've been better off dropped.

    Have to give credit for trying to innovate and truly cut the cord though, induction charging WILL be the future after all.
    Guessing you are new to webOS... I will take the weight for the inductive charging. We own 6 touchstones for the phones and 1 so far for the TP, one of the greatest inventions EVAR!
    I love physical keyboards... but there is two devices that would make me consider a slab, one is something running a full version of Open webOS. The other is an iPhone!!!! HA HA just kidding (about the iPhone that is)...
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by klx300r View Post
    I'll tell you that I have friends that called me the last few days just to tell me that they finally tried out WebOS on someone's new TP and now they get what I was telling them for years !!!

    Funny how people are sometimes really, it seems now that there is some hype around WebOS people want it ?!?
    ive had similar experience, even with savvy consumers.

    "It's not too thick, it's fast, this is really cool, I wish I'd known about this in time to get one...."
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by jrstinkfish View Post
    They won't have much choice than to get something else after it. If there were still webOS tablets being produced, you'd have a point, but the only company making them has ceased doing that, and there is very little chance another reputable company will want to take on this cursed niche OS.
    the idea is that somebody else will be making them by the time we are all ready for a replacement. I could see an OEM concluding that there are 2 million potential webOS sales in 12 to 18 months. Why not try to get those sales?
  10.    #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by hrminer92 View Post
    What? No complaints about it being thicker and heavier than the iPad2 or the Samsung device or even the TouchPad?
    $99 price > weight, thickness, OS, Apps, etc....

    Once you are able to get a decent Tablet for $99, there is no need to look much higher.

    Here is where a lot of the manufacturers have messed up: they are treating the tablet as a keyboard-less laptop instead of what they are, a PMP with a big screen.

    Once they figure that out, then they will be built and priced accordingly. My laptop has almost replaced my desktop; my TouchPad and iPad have only replaced the need for me to keep my laptop next to my bed. It is a supplement device.
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by bobsentell View Post
    $99 price > weight, thickness, OS, Apps, etc....

    Once you are able to get a decent Tablet for $99, there is no need to look much higher.

    Here is where a lot of the manufacturers have messed up: they are treating the tablet as a keyboard-less laptop instead of what they are, a PMP with a big screen.

    Once they figure that out, then they will be built and priced accordingly. My laptop has almost replaced my desktop; my TouchPad and iPad have only replaced the need for me to keep my laptop next to my bed. It is a supplement device.
    Apple has already figured out their magic formula, their iPad line is selling like crazy. their competitors, well, not even close. Everything on an iPad is easy to get to, it's fast, looks great and it has all your apps ready to go from your older iOS devices. And there's plenty of app for the choosing.

    The ecosystem is in place for the full experience. Everything works across all your devices be it your iPod, iPad or iPhone.

    The competitors however, like you mentioned, are treating their tablets as if they need to be professional in an overly done way. Honeycomb looks too drab and pro hardcore compared to iOS. Anyone who looks at and play with an iPad gets excited but try the same with an Android tablet and they'll ask questions about features that are missing and why there's 50 million different ones when there's only one iPad that just works.

    IPad's are sold as fun first and as a tool in your every day life. Productivity comes second. I actually favor WebOS over Android but the lack of hardware killed it sadly. At this point thinking someone is going to save it is probably in for a sad awakening.
    czechdev likes this.
  12. #72  
    Man there are a lot of know-it-alls on this thread...

    Quote Originally Posted by jrstinkfish View Post
    I think people understand they are getting a bargain on a tablet with an OS on life support. If people are looking for a tablet, and expect one to be $99 with those sort of specs, they will eventually cave in and pay full price. I bet a majority of the people who bought the Touchpads weren't even in the market for a tablet, just succumbed to the American consumer mentality that allows a show about cutting coupons to be a success.
    There is no evidence to support this. For someone not even interested in a tablet at all, $99 would still be wasteful spending for something they don't even want, and they would have had to act *real& fast to get it since most retailers were sold out within hours or even minutes. This implies more than just a casual interest or desire.

    They have already shown that the TouchPad was the #2 most desired tablet on the market. People *were* interested in the Touchpad but were simply not willing to pay the price. The price drop *did* have a positive impact on sales and HP even admitted/acknowledged this. The response when HP and Staples offered a simultaneous $100 price cut (for a total of $200 off making it possible to get a TouchPad for $299) the effect was phenomenal and any Staples store that was honoring that coupon sold out that weekend.

    This information implies that the TouchPad could have sold *well* at a price point between $300 and $400. Starting the price at $500 to compete with the iPad was a huge mistake.

    Selling it at $99 was another huge mistake. The fact that every retailer sold out within hours, some within minutes of offering the $99 price, very strongly indicates that $99 was far less than consumers were willing to pay.

    For further evidence of the value, you can check eBay. People are still actively placing bids on TouchPads for well over $300. Further evidence that the ideal price point was between $300 and $400 and that people continue to value it at that price point even *after* the fire sale.



    Quote Originally Posted by neller2000 View Post
    I don't need to supply you with data about something you already know. It sold like crap, which is a fact. It had a previous price dump, which didn't do anything either, fact.
    Not fact. HP acknowledged that the price reduction had a very favorable consumer response and impact on sales.

    Quote Originally Posted by neller2000 View Post
    Most stores always had them VERY well stocked before the firesale, because noone was buying them, fact.
    Again, not quite. The staples stores that honored the double $100 off deal sold out before the weekend was finished. It was selling where it was priced appropriately.

    Quote Originally Posted by neller2000 View Post
    You can say assume or suspect all you like, the proof of it selling like utter total garbage is the firesale, the shutdown of new devices, the delay/cancellation of Pre 3 launch in most countries.
    So the fact that HP is also trying to get rid of it's PC division must be *proof* that HP PCs are not selling well, right? That logic makes perfect sense especially when you consider that HP is one of, if not *the*, biggest PC sales companies is the world. Volume of units shipped has nothing to do with these business decisions. Profit margins do. It didn't matter how well the TouchPad sold, if it didn't sell at the right price point it didn't matter. The fact is the TouchPad outsold every one of the Android tablets, and was the most desired Tablet according to consumer surveys next to the iPad (iPad might be #1, but the HP TouchPad is already #2 in mindshare | The #1 HP webOS, TouchPad, Pre, and Veer Community | PreCentral.net). It was already doing well enough to be #2 but that still wasn't enough to give HP the margins it wanted. So it decided to kill the tablet, spin off PCs and focus on software and enterprise where margins are huge.

    Those are *actually* facts.

    -Jeremy
    bulliedog and LCGuy like this.
  13. jaif's Avatar
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    #73  
    HP mishandled this - I don't think anybody doubts that. They released webOS on hardware that was essentially competitive with the original iPad.

    To break into the market, they needed to do at least one of two things: 1) provide more features than the current iPad, or 2) the same features for less. Probably a mixture of both, with some flexibility in tradeoffs ... e.g. a bit thicker, but not thick enough that people would complain.

    Only with a better product would the advantages of webOS been recognized. Only geeks are going to make their buying decision on a better OS.

    -Jeff
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by bobsentell View Post
    Just out of curiosity, has anyone ever tried to port webOS over to Samsung Galaxy Tab?
    Can't. It would need to be recompiled for the Tegra 2 processor and that's not possible for anyone but HP because it's closed source.
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by neller2000 View Post
    ...snip

    However, it's still highly usable but only because it's $99.
    If it is "highly usable" at $99, it would be highly usable at $999 and even $.99. I don't get your point
  16. #76  
    Ok, clearly there's a lot of people coming on here who are clueless. We are in this mess because Leo is an ***** who overreacted to the report from Bloomberg, and ended up driving HP's market cap down $16B in two days.

    There was one credible report that the TouchPad was actually selling pretty well before the fire sale, but the comments that have come out of HP (through back channels) was that they were looking for it to be between the iPad and all Android tablets combined in sales rates, and it wasn't happening. I've seen estimates of around 200k sold before the fire sale. We have a credible report that 350k sold BEFORE Best Buy's inventory of 270k (minus 25k already sold), which is now sold out. Amazon is still pumping them out hard and fast (they are STILL number 1 and two in electronics sales). Newegg finally sold out. As did Walmart and Sams. Many other retailers are sold out. Further, HP has more inventory coming to sell.

    Quite frankly, it's blatantly obvious that there are now more than 1 million TouchPads sold, and the reported 2 million manufactured seems to be credible, especially since the 4G and 64GB versions are STILL coming out. The other interesting thing is that virtually every webOS phone is flying off the shelves too. Try getting an off contract Pre 2 without going to eBay.

    If HP was really smart, they would either a) have a suitor coming out with a new tablet and phone sometime before Christmas, and or b) make a more advanced version of the TouchPad and then change the corporate mind on the mobile space.
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by transient View Post
    This is such a dumb view. HP can dress up in a santa outfit and just give them away for free. Everyone would want one then but that doesn't make it a smart business move.

    The console analogies just don't work. A console is just a $300-400 paperweight without any games. So of course MS/Sony will bet the house that they'd buy a couple of $60 games over the 5+ year life span of a console (compared to the 1-2 year lifespan of mobile devices). This isn't the same case with tablets. If HP loses even $100 on firesales (and they aren't, they're losing $200+), they have to make that up through up through hundreds of $1-2 App sales PER USER. HP only gets a percentage of that so you got to double the loses. How many people will throw down $200-$400 in apps within a 1-2 year period, maybe the top % but we're talking the budget hunting market so it'd be even less. And thats just to break even, forget about profits.

    Thats without saying that most of the profits come from hardware sales and HP would be making none.

    The big shot business guys aren't scratching their heads, their shaking them.
    It's only dumb if that's your long-term plan. I don't think it's wrong if you're talking about building up your userbase. Let's face it, webOS was stuck in the vicious circle of "there are no users to develop for so there are no apps so there are no users" - having a firesale expanded the TouchPad userbase dramatically. In this scenario selling apps isn't the point, it's building your base.

    I could see doing this if you've got another product ready to go in a few months, dump the first gen product cheaply and take a hit, then go to regular prices for a newer product. That, or have the reduced price for a while, then back to something more normal.

    Now, I don't believe for a second that HP actually planned this. Leo has his head up his *** and wanted to kill off webOS. I'm just saying that it's a plan. The risk is that you have to know your product is so good that once those 'cheap' users get a hold of webOS that they'll be locked into the next product, and produce enough buzz that others will join them. Risky to say the least.
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by bulliedog View Post
    No sir. You have just successfully demonstrated the opposite of rational. If we could have started with a common understanding of YOUR definition of highly usable sans the emotional effect of price on a given user's perception of how usable something is - maybe I'd agree.

    However, you can't deny that if your definition of usable includes "you can check your mail, watch YouTube, take advantage of Skype, catch the news and send out a few messages and look over Facebook" (all quantifiable by the way) - the TouchPad does these things no matter the price. For that matter so does the iPad and many other tablets.
    Not sure if you misunderstood. People have no problems purchasing faster iPads and faster Google tablets that do the same thing. People just didn't want to shell out the same amount of cash for something slightly slower and slightly inferior. Or even shell out what it was discounted for in the first place.

    $99 is perfect though, it's the cheapest way for people who wanted an iPad or Google tablet to do the things I mentioned earlier. And that's why it sold. Not because of how cool WebOS is. Not because of awesome hardware. Not because it can compete in the slightest with iPads or Google tablets but because it can do similar things DIRT CHEAP.
  19. #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by neller2000 View Post
    Fact is that public interest in a $99 product being sold at a $200-$250 loss is not viable or sustainable. It's downright bad for business, no matter how you try and spin it. It's nothing more than a firesale interest.

    And please get that number two desired tablet out of your mind. The first is an iPad, the second spot goes to the numerous Honeycomb devices out there. The mindshare of the Touchpad was so tiny noone I knew had even heard about it until now. However everyone I know has heard of both iPads and Google tablets. Are you trying to claim your friends don't know what an iPad is or a Google tablet but they were so awesomely excited about the Touchpad, they just didn't like the price? Get real. If they wanted it, they would have gotten it long before now.

    I already have both an iPad 2 and a Motorola Xoom, both having 3G connectivity. I RUSHED online and purchased 2 Touchpads from my local Walmart for pickup that day. Not because it's an awesome tablet. Not because it has awesome apps. Because it was cheap as dirt and my parents can play around with them until they get the iPads they've been wanting for a long time.

    And it didn't sell well enough after the price drop. Did you hear the news the other day? HP just announced they are discontinuing anything WebOS and will also start to kill off their PC division? Newsflash, if it was selling well, even selling ok, they would not be killing it off. That alone is proof and fact that it has sold like total garbage. And that Precentral link you're linking is exactly the kind of flawed reasoning I was just mentioning. It was not number two.

    And selling it at $99 was a big mistake? They already know it was garbage and didn't sell. It wasn't a mistake. It was entirely planned and expected so they can kill off their entire inventory. Again, you're spinning this around in a blinded fashion to try and mask it as something it's not.

    It truly amazes me how being blinded from love of a product can kill all reason within a person to the point they'll believe and say anything, even though it makes no sense whatsoever.

    Ok, so this study doesn't mean anything:

    The tablet market continues to be summed up like this: the iPad and everything else. And everything else doesn't amount to much.

    That's according to a recent survey conducted by Robert W. Baird. The study found that out of more than 1,100 potential tablet purchasers, an overwhelming 94.5 percent cited the iPad as a device of interest. Hewlett-Packard's TouchPad was the second most-cited device, garnering just 10.3 percent of the people surveyed, while Research in Motion's PlayBook was a laggard.

    Read more: It's iPad or nothing, survey says | Wireless - CNET News

    Oh, I know, because all the Android tablets together make up more. What kind of sense does that make? Do you think Samsung is happy being number 3, but it's ok because when you combine them with Motorola they become number 2? By that token, I could declare HP number one since they put out a tablet, like Apple, Motorola, Samsung, etc.

    Doubtless some supporters are blinded by love, but when you go calling a perfectly good tablet 'garbage' you lose credibility.
  20. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by MobileBill23 View Post
    Ok, so this study doesn't mean anything:

    The tablet market continues to be summed up like this: the iPad and everything else. And everything else doesn't amount to much.

    That's according to a recent survey conducted by Robert W. Baird. The study found that out of more than 1,100 potential tablet purchasers, an overwhelming 94.5 percent cited the iPad as a device of interest. Hewlett-Packard's TouchPad was the second most-cited device, garnering just 10.3 percent of the people surveyed, while Research in Motion's PlayBook was a laggard.

    Read more: It's iPad or nothing, survey says | Wireless - CNET News

    Oh, I know, because all the Android tablets together make up more. What kind of sense does that make? Do you think Samsung is happy being number 3, but it's ok because when you combine them with Motorola they become number 2? By that token, I could declare HP number one since they put out a tablet, like Apple, Motorola, Samsung, etc.

    Doubtless some supporters are blinded by love, but when you go calling a perfectly good tablet 'garbage' you lose credibility.
    Because that's the way it works. If I'm in the market for an iPad, the number 1 selling type, I go to Apple. If I'm in the market for a Google tablet, the number 2 selling type, I look online and a CRAPLOAD of different brands, with the exact same stock Honeycomb, pop up. Some even with small modifications.

    And compared to iPad's and Google tablets, it kinda is garbage. It's slower. Laggier. Less apps. Weird bugs. Same price before the firesale and discounts. One would be stupid to pick one over the competition.
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