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  1.    #1  
    How is it that the guys/gals at webosinternals, preware etc are able to spot out bugs, add and enhance features etc in a matter of days when HP with all it's billions and almost two years with webos releases a tablet with issues that could have been easily resolved. I think HP is thinking too big picture which no of us will ever see or get. For example making sure you can print from a tablet. Instead they should start with small things that can be easily fixed. I realize there is an update being released next week but why wasn't that update already in the touchpad at launch?
    chalx likes this.
  2. Ulairi's Avatar
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    #2  
    Quote Originally Posted by Dvigilante1 View Post
    How is it that the guys/gals at webosinternals, preware etc are able to spot out bugs, add and enhance features etc in a matter of days when HP with all it's billions and almost two years with webos releases a tablet with issues that could have been easily resolved. I think HP is thinking too big picture which no of us will ever see or get. For example making sure you can print from a tablet. Instead they should start with small things that can be easily fixed. I realize there is an update being released next week but why wasn't that update already in the touchpad at launch?
    That's not how development works. That's why.
    sketch42, laoh, RafRol and 3 others like this.
  3. #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulairi View Post
    That's not how development works. That's why.
    +1. Exactly what he said. ^^^^^
    Achill3s' Palm Pre: Modded and patched to death!!
    donjt81 and sketch42 like this.
  4. #4  
    Not to take away from what the homebrew community does, but those patches are merely just that, patches. They're bandaids over wounds that are much bigger than what a "bandaid" is intended for.

    They work, but they're not ideal.
    chalx likes this.
  5. #5  
    I would think they want to make sure all the changes work and work with each other before releasing to the masses.
    chalx and sketch42 like this.
  6. #6  
    Hmm, I was thinking it was just last July that HP's purchase of Palm was finalized. Figure in the problems of integrating the two companies, getting HP folks up to speed, losing HP's CEO, which I'm sure also caused some lack of focus there, etc...I think they're doing pretty well. Have they been keeping up with the market? No, but I think they're quickly catching up and will be cutting edge soon. Reminds me of some of Palm's situations, where they spun off the software division, only to have someone else buy it up, and cause them to lose time, updating the OS, etc. I think the only reason they released the Touchpad on July 1 is that they had promised a June release and didn't want to break yet another promise (although technically they still didn't meet their self-imposed deadline).

    But I think HP is learning from its mistakes and is deliberately vague on release dates for the Touchpad OTA, for that reason. Here very recently, it seems that management is even on the same page with their answers to interviews, instead of dumb answers like "We won't announce launches until the product is ready to ship," or "We won't launch a product that isn't perfect at launch," the later of which is always a wrong statement to make. There will never be a perfect tablet.

    My guess is that HP was working on other priorities with WebOS, and figured they could come back and fix things like speed and performance later, around the formal launch of the 17th. I actually am waiting to see what the first OTA update looks like before doing any patching. I fear patching something that may soon not be broke anymore. On the other hand, HP appears to be the only manufacturer that is cool with a Homebrew community to make their products even better.

    Sorry, if I sound like a HP fan boy, because I'm really not, but I don't think HP has had a fair enough chance to show whether they can deliver the goods or not yet. Certainly there have been some miscues and a bunch of broken promises, such as WebOS 2 being available to the original Pre and Pixi lines.
    All for One and One for All!
  7. #7  
    I'm just glad Homebrew does have the ability to do this. You can't do it on a stock iPAD.
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by Dvigilante1 View Post
    How is it that the guys/gals at webosinternals, preware etc are able to spot out bugs, add and enhance features etc in a matter of days when HP with all it's billions and almost two years with webos releases a tablet with issues that could have been easily resolved. I think HP is thinking too big picture which no of us will ever see or get. For example making sure you can print from a tablet. Instead they should start with small things that can be easily fixed. I realize there is an update being released next week but why wasn't that update already in the touchpad at launch?
    Quote Originally Posted by urresidentcomedian View Post
    It makes you wonder if they (and previously Palm employees) even use their own products on a day-to-day basis for personal use.

    I've been wondering that since the Pre was released back in '09.
    i was gonna write something.. but i believe it would lead to an infraction so im just gonna hide a link to what i was thinking .. through reading whats on the other side of the link i will have made my point Indirectly... so.. prepare... and brace yourself... heres the link Argument FAQ
    Jake_M likes this.
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by Dvigilante1 View Post
    How is it that the guys/gals at webosinternals, preware etc are able to spot out bugs, add and enhance features etc in a matter of days when HP with all it's billions and almost two years with webos releases a tablet with issues that could have been easily resolved. I think HP is thinking too big picture which no of us will ever see or get. For example making sure you can print from a tablet. Instead they should start with small things that can be easily fixed. I realize there is an update being released next week but why wasn't that update already in the touchpad at launch?
    Remember WebOS 3.0 is Enyo, not the same OS as it was 2 years ago. Requiring rewrites of WebOS native apps.
    I love physical keyboards... but there is two devices that would make me consider a slab, one is something running a full version of Open webOS. The other is an iPhone!!!! HA HA just kidding (about the iPhone that is)...
    BB Musketeers likes this.
  10. #10  
    A complete rewrite of an entire OS in under a year, with 2 phones and a tablet announced(in under a year) and you're complaining? Man there's no pleasing some people. Yeah it's not perfect, nothing's perfect. They're working on it. You can't just do things in the corporate world and just make a few fixes and push it like we can here, because here it's just us, but HP is HP, and they have to do their own testing/evaluating.
    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby View Post
    We always prefer that people donate in response to tangible items they can use today, rather than for intangible promises about the future that may or may not be possible to achieve.
  11. #11  
    I'm wondering why Windows has been out for decades, and still has a "patch Tuesday" every month. (And yes, this post is related to the OP, though one has to put a little thought into it).
  12. jsabo's Avatar
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    #12  
    When you release commercial software, you have a much more involved QA process. Before you put a final build out, particularly for mass release, you will regression test the entire device to make sure that your "simple change" didn't have an unexpected ripple effect, or that someone didn't accidentally include something in that final build that wasn't supposed to be there.

    So then, you are always making tradeoffs-- can we afford to do another regression test of the device in order to include a certain list of fixes?

    What often happens is that, for stuff that's relatively minor, and doesn't significantly affect the overall product, the fix may exist, but get pushed to a future release.

    In other words, they may know full well that there's a bug in the product, and even have a fix for that bug ready to go, but will ship with the bug in place simply because it doesn't make financial sense to hold up the release just to fix the bug.

    The homebrew guys don't have the same restrictions.

    If I get a patch from them, I know full well that that patch didn't run through a complete QA cycle, and that it might have unforseen consequences. A patch that allowed me to run multiple SMS cards had the side-effect of screwing up how Chat worked.

    Not to knock the homebrew guys as being sloppy or anything-- the WebOS Internals guys have an amazing track record, and their successes far outweigh their failures-- but they're simply not playing by the same rules as HP.

    To put this in laymans terms, if a sign blows down on the highway, to replace that sign, I need to schedule a work crew to go out, close down the lane, arrange with the cops to have a cruiser on site to protect the crew, get the right truck & tools out there to put the sign up, etc.

    Yeah, me and my buddy could go and just nail the sign up at 3AM, and we'd probably get away with it, but the state can't afford for something to go wrong, so that option's not available to them.
    sledge007 and lukehale like this.
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by jsabo View Post
    To put this in laymans terms, if a sign blows down on the highway, to replace that sign, I need to schedule a work crew to go out, close down the lane, arrange with the cops to have a cruiser on site to protect the crew, get the right truck & tools out there to put the sign up, etc.

    Yeah, me and my buddy could go and just nail the sign up at 3AM, and we'd probably get away with it, but the state can't afford for something to go wrong, so that option's not available to them.
    I always wanted do this!!



    -- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jakeeeee View Post
    A complete rewrite of an entire OS in under a year, with 2 phones and a tablet announced(in under a year) and you're complaining? Man there's no pleasing some people. Yeah it's not perfect, nothing's perfect. They're working on it. You can't just do things in the corporate world and just make a few fixes and push it like we can here, because here it's just us, but HP is HP, and they have to do their own testing/evaluating.
    The OS wasn't rewritten, only the JavaScript framework and lower level services.
  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by barkerja View Post
    The OS wasn't rewritten, only the JavaScript framework and lower level services.
    (not claiming to know much on this subject.. but i have a question..) what about the launcher .. the PIM apps etc.. where does that fit in??
    OldSkoolVWLover likes this.
  16. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by Dvigilante1 View Post
    How is it that the guys/gals at webosinternals, preware etc are able to spot out bugs, add and enhance features etc in a matter of days when HP with all it's billions and almost two years with webos releases a tablet with issues that could have been easily resolved. I think HP is thinking too big picture which no of us will ever see or get. For example making sure you can print from a tablet. Instead they should start with small things that can be easily fixed. I realize there is an update being released next week but why wasn't that update already in the touchpad at launch?
    Okay, this is going to sound kind of off topic. I work for a County Department and the County Auditors& Election's office and our County IT group has the entire payroll, billing, time-study system & much more. They met with County Department heads and they are now meeting with managers, IT, HR and payroll staff within the various departments. I'm with Human Services (Welfare 1700 staff), they've already met with Probation, Sheriff's and a few other Departments. County IT has been testing this for a while. In fact, I know of a unit of staff (at our department) who's been testing for over 6 months.

    Today they told us every Department will roll into this system, in order for their employees to get paid, they've tested it and it works for them. However, they need actual users to test it in a real life situation and for us to tell them what other data needs to be captured so that it saves time and man hours.

    It wouldn't matter if they tested for 6 years w/o users using it for their individual needs, they won't know if it works for that department. They want all departments up in the next year, but it's 3 - 5 years before they stop accepting anything that isn't in the new system.

    Long story, long. HP isn't the only end user. All of the end-users have their priorities as to what's important. For HP to deliver a device that would not even print to one of their printers, w/o the users purchasing an app, would have been a fiasco in their eyes. I can't get my HP PC, tablet, laptop, etc to print to my HP printer wouldn't make sense to most consumers.
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by barkerja View Post
    The OS wasn't rewritten, only the JavaScript framework and lower level services.
    Uhmm not true.... I also am not an expert, but I do know the launcher was rewritten, I also know all native apps had to be/were/will be rewritten in enyo (this has been posted all over this site). Beyond that.... yeah my basic understanding of 3.0/Enyo is far more complex than how you are attempting to make it be, all this knowledge comes from reading the front page articles/tweets/posts here/etc.
    I love physical keyboards... but there is two devices that would make me consider a slab, one is something running a full version of Open webOS. The other is an iPhone!!!! HA HA just kidding (about the iPhone that is)...
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by OldSkoolVWLover View Post
    Uhmm not true.... I also am not an expert, but I do know the launcher was rewritten, I also know all native apps had to be/were/will be rewritten in enyo (this has been posted all over this site). Beyond that.... yeah my basic understanding of 3.0/Enyo is far more complex than how you are attempting to make it be, all this knowledge comes from reading the front page articles/tweets/posts here/etc.
    I didn't say parts of the OS weren't rewritten (if you can include native apps as part of the OS), I said the entire OS wasn't rewritten from scratch, which many believe when they hear Enyo vs. Mojo.

    Yes, the launcher was rewritten in native (c or c++, not sure which) code and I believe the phone app was also rewritten using native code as well.

    However, the meat and potatoes of webOS is java based (Luna) and acts as the middleman between the javascript frameworks (Enyo, Mojo) and the lower level system (Linux).
  19. #19  
    Unit testing, end-to-end testing, integration testing... and making sure you didn't break anything else while fixing something. Just some of the things the big boys must do and these take time.
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by Dvigilante1 View Post
    How is it that the guys/gals at webosinternals, preware etc are able to spot out bugs, add and enhance features etc in a matter of days when HP with all it's billions and almost two years with webos releases a tablet with issues that could have been easily resolved. I think HP is thinking too big picture which no of us will ever see or get. For example making sure you can print from a tablet. Instead they should start with small things that can be easily fixed. I realize there is an update being released next week but why wasn't that update already in the touchpad at launch?
    I realized I could be looking at OP's statement incorrectly. OP, what bugs are you talking about? Some of us may be talking about different things instead of the hardware, which is what HP delivers. Can you give us specifics, because no device in history has been launched with absolutely no issues; and some of the issues that people have mentioned about the TouchPad are based on preference and software, not apps. For instance, thickness. The only patch I know of that does something specific that HP controls, that most people have an expectation for, is speed.

    But like one of the other posters stated, that's a patch. The TouchPad being released with AT &T will have more GHz, and that's not a patch.
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