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  1.    #1  
    I knew this was going to be the case with webOS 3.0. I mentioned it in a post after the Veer came out. How is this OS STILL laggy? HP says everything will be fixed after they release an OTA update, but they are launching the Touchpad before the release of this update. Makes no sense. Bring on the Touchpad 2 already.

    Here's my original post. http://forums.precentral.net/webos-d...webos-lag.html
    Last edited by jkpritchard; 06/30/2011 at 12:07 PM. Reason: Updated with original post.
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  2. #2  
    It is laggy for this reason:

    Not all visuals are GPU accelerated.

    I spoke to Richard Kerris at the WebOS Developer Connect in Toronto and he said that HP simply ran out of time rewriting all the CSS3 to be GPU accelerated. Its a huge change.

    So, whenever the CPU begins to do something that requires 100% resource, the visuals lag as the CPU has no more cycles to allocate to rendering visual elements. Everything visually stops in its tracks while the CPU plays catchup with whatever background task it is completing.

    iOS doesnt appear to do this because the visuals are all GPU accelerated. Even if a task takes as long to complete, the user can still manipulate the visuals on the screen, giving the allusion that nothing is "lagging" behind the scenes.

    Richard said that the next update of the OS that will be pushed out within the next week or so will have full GPU acceleration for the visuals of the OS, but not apps themselves. The apps have to be enabled by the developers (they have to write the CSS to be GPU accelerated)

    But at least the OS as a whole and the HP/Palm apps will be fully accelerated by the GPU soon, and the lag will be a thing of the past.

    HP really wanted this to be done before launch, but again, they didnt want to push back the release date, because of the flack they got in the past for "in the coming months..."
  3. #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by rmausser View Post
    It is laggy for this reason:

    Not all visuals are GPU accelerated.

    I spoke to Richard Kerris at the WebOS Developer Connect in Toronto and he said that HP simply ran out of time rewriting all the CSS3 to be GPU accelerated. Its a huge change.

    So, whenever the CPU begins to do something that requires 100% resource, the visuals lag as the CPU has no more cycles to allocate to rendering visual elements. Everything visually stops in its tracks while the CPU plays catchup with whatever background task it is completing.

    iOS doesnt appear to do this because the visuals are all GPU accelerated. Even if a task takes as long to complete, the user can still manipulate the visuals on the screen, giving the allusion that nothing is "lagging" behind the scenes.

    Richard said that the next update of the OS that will be pushed out within the next week or so will have full GPU acceleration for the visuals of the OS, but not apps themselves. The apps have to be enabled by the developers (they have to write the CSS to be GPU accelerated)

    But at least the OS as a whole and the HP/Palm apps will be fully accelerated by the GPU soon, and the lag will be a thing of the past.

    HP really wanted this to be done before launch, but again, they didnt want to push back the release date, because of the flack they got in the past for "in the coming months..."
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  4. #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by rmausser View Post
    It is laggy for this reason:

    Not all visuals are GPU accelerated.

    I spoke to Richard Kerris at the WebOS Developer Connect in Toronto and he said that HP simply ran out of time rewriting all the CSS3 to be GPU accelerated. Its a huge change...


    /replace Pre's picture for a TouchPad...
  5. rumz's Avatar
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    #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by rmausser View Post
    iOS doesnt appear to do this because the visuals are all GPU accelerated. Even if a task takes as long to complete, the user can still manipulate the visuals on the screen, giving the allusion that nothing is "lagging" behind the scenes.
    I've noticed this. The iPad is just more clever about disguising any latency. It makes for a better UX, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by rmausser View Post
    Richard said that the next update of the OS that will be pushed out within the next week or so will have full GPU acceleration for the visuals of the OS, but not apps themselves. The apps have to be enabled by the developers (they have to write the CSS to be GPU accelerated)
    So how difficult is it for app authors to write their CSS to be GPU accelerated? How does this differ from how a browser works, if it has hardware acceleration enabled?
  6. #6  
    Got to say that at this stage in the game, it's a bit disheartening that this is still an issue. As I am still using a pre-, I might have reached the end of Palm experience. I've heard "it's coming" for far too long now.
  7. #7  
    OK, i'm normally pretty optimistic about webOS.

    I can put up with a bit of lag and jerkyness. The problem here is complete STALLs for many seconds. When you end up pressing the same button 10 times before it then opens 10 new cards you have a problem.

    I dont agree that this is about GPU acceleration. That would just make things like scrolling smoother. This is about when the CPU is too busy servicing a blocking function too respond. No amount of GPU nonsense will help. I thought the dual core would help but it clearly doesn't. I now think it's something more fundamental about how the OS works.

    also, when apps stall on loading like quickoffice did in the engadget vid and google maps does all the time on the Pre, I get really annoyed.

    these problems have existed from day1 on the Pre and I don't see any signs of them being fixed. We were told that Enyo would be the cure and it clearly isn't (it does sound better to develop for though).

    If and when webOS3.0 comes to my trusty Pre2 i'll re-consider, but for now I'll hold off on the touchpad. HP is lucky I don't just go out and get a iPad2.
  8. #8  
    It's an interesting issue because Linux is generally well-threaded. webOS should benefit from its architecture on dual core systems.
  9. i2y4n's Avatar
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    #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by hagster View Post
    OK, i'm normally pretty optimistic about webOS.

    I can put up with a bit of lag and jerkyness. The problem here is complete STALLs for many seconds. When you end up pressing the same button 10 times before it then opens 10 new cards you have a problem.

    I dont agree that this is about GPU acceleration. That would just make things like scrolling smoother. This is about when the CPU is too busy servicing a blocking function too respond. No amount of GPU nonsense will help. I thought the dual core would help but it clearly doesn't. I now think it's something more fundamental about how the OS works.

    also, when apps stall on loading like quickoffice did in the engadget vid and google maps does all the time on the Pre, I get really annoyed.

    these problems have existed from day1 on the Pre and I don't see any signs of them being fixed. We were told that Enyo would be the cure and it clearly isn't (it does sound better to develop for though).

    If and when webOS3.0 comes to my trusty Pre2 i'll re-consider, but for now I'll hold off on the touchpad. HP is lucky I don't just go out and get a iPad2.
    This happens on every single operating system in existence. Computers are never perfect. HP rewrote an entire operating system in seven months, give them time to get it a little better. But don't expect perfection.
  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by i2y4n View Post
    This happens on every single operating system in existence. Computers are never perfect. HP rewrote an entire operating system in seven months, give them time to get it a little better. But don't expect perfection.
    O RLY? Enyo has been in development well over 7 months. The framework was being publicly demonstrated 7 months ago.

    HP demonstrates Enyo Javascript framework for WebOS - Techworld.com

    In 7 months, Android went from Cupcake 1.5 to Donut 1.6 to Eclair 2.0 and then two months later to Eclair 2.1, which is probably the development time frame for Enyo right now. 9 months to develop a new version of the mobile OS is time enough to get a mature release.
  11. i2y4n's Avatar
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    #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by EvilKell View Post
    O RLY? Enyo has been in development well over 7 months. The framework was being publicly demonstrated 7 months ago.

    HP demonstrates Enyo Javascript framework for WebOS - Techworld.com

    In 7 months, Android went from Cupcake 1.5 to Donut 1.6 to Eclair 2.0 and then two months later to Eclair 2.1, which is probably the development time frame for Enyo right now. 9 months to develop a new version of the mobile OS is time enough to get a mature release.
    Okay okay, whatever, give or take a month, wow. HP has owned Palm for one year, so its definitely less than that.

    3.0 is a complete rewrite of the operating system. It isn't just an update.
  12. #12  
    Google does software 100%. Nothing else. You can't possibly compare Google's update cycles to HP/Palm.

    The Engadget guy had no idea how to use webOS. Hell, any computer for that matter. If an app ever takes more than 5 seconds to load... what's the first thing you do? Close and relaunch... if it STILL takes that long THEN there's a problem. I noticed he left it running for the entirety of his video. Didn't even bother trying. Hell, even maximize it so the OS gives it some priority... nope. Not any effort at all.

    Either way, I have yet to see any significant "lag" or "bugginess" in the system as a whole. One or two things might come up which are annoying, but definitely NOTHING, and I literally mean NOTHING like the Pre minus. It's a COMPLETELY different experience.

    Please at least TOUCH a Touchpad before deciding its not for you when one app on a prerelease device in a video on the internet doesn't load.
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by EvilKell View Post
    O RLY? Enyo has been in development well over 7 months. The framework was being publicly demonstrated 7 months ago.

    HP demonstrates Enyo Javascript framework for WebOS - Techworld.com

    In 7 months, Android went from Cupcake 1.5 to Donut 1.6 to Eclair 2.0 and then two months later to Eclair 2.1, which is probably the development time frame for Enyo right now. 9 months to develop a new version of the mobile OS is time enough to get a mature release.
    Your missing something though. Those were updates, and not complete rewrites. Enyo isn't really an 'update' its a complete new rewrite of the operating system in Enyo. Now, how long was Android in development? Android was actually in development when Apple released the iPhone almost a decade ago (well not a decade but you get the point). Then they changed their corse based on the new Apple OS in the run.
    "Life is Hard... it's harder if your stupid"
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  14. #14  
    I don't think it was ever questioned that webOS needs to improve its performance. I've gone through a Pre-, Pre 2 (Europe) and finally a Pre 2 (US) and the one thing that's been consistent is the poor performance. And I'm not talking about non-accelerated UI elements. I'm talking about the whole UI blocking on some event waiting to finish.

    At first I thought it might just be a matter of the kernel prioritizing threads that ran the UI, but seeing how the UI consistently blocks with most email actions, I'm now leading more towards guessing that the UI is blocking on some I/O event handler.

    The scary and disheartening part is that 1) there's no way to tell what it is since HP isn't in the practice of sharing troubleshooting or debugging info, and 2) if they haven't fixed this glaring issue in nearly 3 years, I'm afraid it might be more fundamental than accelerating UI elements and the solution more lower level.
  15. #15  
    I figure Playbook is more smoother because its QNX kernel can guarantee low latencies.
  16. Zyphlin's Avatar
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    #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by rmausser View Post
    HP really wanted this to be done before launch, but again, they didnt want to push back the release date, because of the flack they got in the past for "in the coming months..."
    Know what else they've got flack for in the past?

    Releasing a device that was laggy and buggy at launch and promising that "udpates" would fix it...and yet 2 years later, without homebrew, it still routinely runs into situations where you get errrors simply opening more than 1 card.

    Is it a reasonable excuse on their pat? Absolutely. However, when you've given nothing but "reasonable excuses" for now going on 3 years the level of "reasonableness" becomes less important than the level of "excuses".
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Know what else they've got flack for in the past?

    Releasing a device that was laggy and buggy at launch and promising that "udpates" would fix it...and yet 2 years later, without homebrew, it still routinely runs into situations where you get errrors simply opening more than 1 card.

    Is it a reasonable excuse on their pat? Absolutely. However, when you've given nothing but "reasonable excuses" for now going on 3 years the level of "reasonableness" becomes less important than the level of "excuses".
    Factually incorrect. HP hasn't owned the OS for three years. We know folks want to complain, and even though it's being allowed, can we at least keep the whining to actual facts?
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  18. i2y4n's Avatar
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    #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by SirataXero View Post
    Google does software 100%. Nothing else. You can't possibly compare Google's update cycles to HP/Palm.

    The Engadget guy had no idea how to use webOS. Hell, any computer for that matter. If an app ever takes more than 5 seconds to load... what's the first thing you do? Close and relaunch... if it STILL takes that long THEN there's a problem. I noticed he left it running for the entirety of his video. Didn't even bother trying. Hell, even maximize it so the OS gives it some priority... nope. Not any effort at all.

    Either way, I have yet to see any significant "lag" or "bugginess" in the system as a whole. One or two things might come up which are annoying, but definitely NOTHING, and I literally mean NOTHING like the Pre minus. It's a COMPLETELY different experience.

    Please at least TOUCH a Touchpad before deciding its not for you when one app on a prerelease device in a video on the internet doesn't load.
    Exactly! Desktop computers act the same exact way.
  19. Zyphlin's Avatar
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    #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Factually incorrect. HP hasn't owned the OS for three years. We know folks want to complain, and even though it's being allowed, can we at least keep the whining to actual facts?
    HP hasn't owned the OS for three years. However, the OS has been in development for almost three years, been on the market for almost three years, and many of the same people who were originally working on it are still there in the company its currently under. While it may say HP instead of Palm now, its not "actual facts" to attempt to act like it is an OS that didn't exist prior to a year ago or that its something entirely seperate and wholely and alienly different than Palm WebOS.

    The same generalized people...Palm and the company who bought Palm and thus gain its legacy regarding the products it continues to push...have for going on to the 3rd year now been giving out "reasonable excuses". Its whining about fiction when you attempt to act or imply that somehow Palm and "The products and remnants of palm that HP is pushing under its own brand" are entirely seperate entities that shouldn't be viewed as a reasonable similar product grouping.
  20. #20  
    From the videos I've viewed of actual working devices (like on webOS roundup, not store display models) I am really impressed how snappy and smooth webOS 3.0 operates on the TouchPad. Apps that depend on connection to the internet for data are slow but that can be expected. I was on a flight coming back from San Jose, CA and an associate of mine was showing off his ipad 2 and went to open an app and he tried tapping an app icon several times and it would not open, he had to close the folder and reopen it for it to work. Hey they are computers, things happen, even to the God devices.
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