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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by reggieb View Post
    And part of HP's strategy to get them is to add more apps. So...I am not sure what exactly you think you are arguing here. A lack of options isn't a feature. As I said in my first post ITT, there are clear advantages to webOS, but there are also clear disadvantages. There is no reason to pretend otherwise.

    Ok, your analysis is right. Again, posting it here is going to change anything? No, so save energy.

    Really, here we are a bit (well, maybe a lot) tired about this kind of stuff. If you have been out of this forum, you can't imagine how many posts as yours. And here is no one putting their heads in the sand, they simply like webOS, and can live with the holes, or simply they don't need the apps you need.

    Again, it's as easy as answering yourself if it fits your needs; plain and simple.

    Some of us pretend this forums to be a constructive site.
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  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by deCorvett View Post
    Ok, your analysis is right. Again, posting it here is going to change anything? No, so save energy.

    Really, here we are a bit (well, maybe a lot) tired about this kind of stuff. If you have been out of this forum, you can't imagine how many posts as yours. And here is no one putting their heads in the sand, they simply like webOS, and can live with the holes, or simply they don't need the apps you need.

    Again, it's as easy as answering yourself if it fits your needs; plain and simple.

    Some of us pretend this forums to be a constructive site.
    I think the point is the discussion. I like a good debate. But of course you're right that it comes down to asking yourself what you need, and find your own best fit. I want webOS to do well, and have been waiting for a webOS tablet for a year. HP knows all of this, so of course, from that standpoint, the discussion is pointless. That doesn't me I don't find it entertaining when I need a break at work.
    Blasphemous webOS fan, using Android (with a big phone buying problem)
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by reggieb View Post
    I think the point is the discussion. I like a good debate. But of course you're right that it comes down to asking yourself what you need, and find your own best fit. I want webOS to do well, and have been waiting for a webOS tablet for a year. HP knows all of this, so of course, from that standpoint, the discussion is pointless. That doesn't me I don't find it entertaining when I need a break at work.
    Yeah, and I love debating too, but it happens that it seems that every Android/iOS switcher/fan out there feels the need to come here to tell everyone how doomed was Palm, how HP can't compete (uh? HP can't compete?), how raibowns are drawn on Android/iOS, and how many apps we're missing. And people is here for a reason (they like webOS, and can live with webOS as is because, you know, they like webOS).

    If yours were the first/second/tenth post about the topic, I would be here debating with you, but the fact is that Precentral's crew was forced to publish this for a reason.
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  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by reggieb View Post
    I think the point is the discussion. I like a good debate. But of course you're right that it comes down to asking yourself what you need, and find your own best fit. I want webOS to do well, and have been waiting for a webOS tablet for a year. HP knows all of this, so of course, from that standpoint, the discussion is pointless. That doesn't me I don't find it entertaining when I need a break at work.
    Just a reminder from the recently revised forum guidelines:

    Users who join Pre|Central share a common enthusiasm for HP-Palm, webOS smartphones, and related products. This isn't a debate site. It's a user-to-user support community about all things webOS.

    Let's keep it helpful.
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by deCorvett View Post
    Yeah, and I love debating too, but it happens that it seems that every Android/iOS switcher/fan out there feels the need to come here to tell everyone how doomed was Palm, how HP can't compete (uh? HP can't compete?), how raibowns are drawn on Android/iOS, and how many apps we're missing. And people is here for a reason (they like webOS, and can live with webOS as is because, you know, they like webOS).

    If yours were the first/second/tenth post about the topic, I would be here debating with you, but the fact is that Precentral's crew was forced to publish this for a reason.
    Alright, fair. But I don't think that's what I was doing. Any how, I will leave it at this: There are advantages and disadvantages to WebOS, there is no reason to pretend otherwise. I don't think webOS is doomed, I think it has a long uphill battle ahead of it, but it has distinct advantages, mainly in the elegant way with which it handles multi-tasking, a great email client which takes advantage of this multi-tasking, etc.

    Apps (or the lack thereof) are a disadvantage, and many people here have already argued with both myself, the OP, and others, that apps aren't a disadvantage. They are. I am not making this up, I have quoted an individual making this very argument. Android has a couple of advantages in apps, but I think webOS has other advantages related to usability. Any way, if people come to learn about webOS, as that link implies, shouldn't people be advised of its weaknesses, as well as its advantages? Thusly people are better able to decide what device will work best for them.

    I think sometimes I am viewed as a cynical Android fan here to trash webOS. On the contrary, I am the type of consumer with no brand loyalty, and I plan to buy a TouchPad on launch day. My home theater is the perfect example of this, hell, I have two brands of speakers alone in my surround sound. My home theater includes Harmon/Kardon, Fluance, Boston Acoustics, Sony, Microsoft, Samsung, Logitech, Nintendo, Netgear, and a PC that I built myself. There are lots of manufacturers out there making great devices, and no reason to pretend that just HP (or just Samsung, or just Apple) makes great products. I also think it is healthy to let HP know where it needs to make improvements (why won't you give me a damn SD slot for god's sake?). So that we can see changes implemented. I would be surprised if there aren't reps that read these forums (other companies definitely do this). Samsung actually has an official rep to answer questions on the Rootz Wiki forums.

    HP, if you are reading this, it wouldn't be a bad idea to follow Sammy's example on this one.
    Blasphemous webOS fan, using Android (with a big phone buying problem)
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by reggieb View Post
    Alright, fair. But I don't think that's what I was doing. Any how, I will leave it at this: There are advantages and disadvantages to WebOS, there is no reason to pretend otherwise. I don't think webOS is doomed, I think it has a long uphill battle ahead of it, but it has distinct advantages, mainly in the elegant way with which it handles multi-tasking, a great email client which takes advantage of this multi-tasking, etc.
    And probably you aren't trolling, but the OP was. And I think here everyone has it's perfect webOS, and this includes you. Sadly (FMPOV, hopefully) we have a great base to start, and now the power, money and presence of HP to improve the ecosystem.

    Quote Originally Posted by reggieb View Post
    Apps (or the lack thereof) are a disadvantage, and many people here have already argued with both myself, the OP, and others, that apps aren't a disadvantage. They are. I am not making this up, I have quoted an individual making this very argument. Android has a couple of advantages in apps, but I think webOS has other advantages related to usability. Any way, if people come to learn about webOS, as that link implies, shouldn't people be advised of its weaknesses, as well as its advantages? Thusly people are better able to decide what device will work best for them.
    They're aware of the problem. but it's HP: they have a plan. First: sell devices, developers will come if there is a dollar to earn. Second: get first done by getting the main app needs covered.

    Quote Originally Posted by reggieb View Post
    I think sometimes I am viewed as a cynical Android fan here to trash webOS. On the contrary, I am the type of consumer with no brand loyalty, and I plan to buy a TouchPad on launch day. My home theater is the perfect example of this, hell, I have two brands of speakers alone in my surround sound. My home theater includes Harmon/Kardon, Fluance, Boston Acoustics, Sony, Microsoft, Samsung, Logitech, Nintendo, Netgear, and a PC that I built myself. There are lots of manufacturers out there making great devices, and no reason to pretend that just HP (or just Samsung, or just Apple) makes great products. I also think it is healthy to let HP know where it needs to make improvements (why won't you give me a damn SD slot for god's sake?).
    And I'm fine with that. No way I'm saying you're a trasher, but the OP definitely is. Calling webOS "the Betamax of 21st century" isn't the best way to make friends on a webOS site.

    Quote Originally Posted by reggieb View Post
    So that we can see changes implemented. I would be surprised if there aren't reps that read these forums (other companies definitely do this). Samsung actually has an official rep to answer questions on the Rootz Wiki forums.

    HP, if you are reading this, it wouldn't be a bad idea to follow Sammy's example on this one.
    Not only reps, but VPs read these forums (at least occasionally).
    Newness Developments apps:

  7. #67  
    Will this be yet another thread that needs to be closed? Seriously...all you iPhone/Droid folks need to stop coming over here and telling us about all these great apps you have. Many of which have equivalents, or near equivalents, available on webOS. Look...this platform, as a means to run your daily life and just get things done (GTD style) rocks. For many of us, the limits/extra effort required to do simple things on the other platforms is not worth those apps that have a little more functionality, or some special wiz bang function that most people don't want or really need. We understand you...now please stop.

    And read the forum guidelines. I love debating too, and will do so to my own detriment, but it all needs to stop or be very limited in scope.
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by reggieb View Post
    As for exhibition mode, with Widget Locker, and a dock, BOOM - I get the same thing on Android.
    FWIW, Widget Locker was a huge battery hog on my Evo 4G. And this was as early as a couple of weeks ago, so fairly recent.

    And it's not always where you'll need Exhibition mode and have a dock around.
  9. #69  
    I'm still catching up with this thread, and my lovely Evo isn't helping much...
    Quote Originally Posted by reggieb View Post

    Apps (or the lack thereof) are a disadvantage, and many people here have already argued with both myself, the OP, and others, that apps aren't a disadvantage. They are. I am not making this up, I have quoted an individual making this very argument.
    I'll try to find the YouTube video (just need to get to my laptop, posting from an Android phone is frustrating) but during a session on Discover 2011 by an HP Product Manager, he mentioned a line I had heard from a webOS developer: HP doesn't really need to match any other app catalog in terms of app numbers -they should (and are, based on HP's Prod Mgr) concentrate on the top 20% apps, specially productivity-related ones.

    Even with the hundreds of thousands of apps available, the average user has exposure to a very limited number of them.

    If HP can bring enough quality apps, and make this at or around the launch of the Touchpad, they'll have a very good chance at success.

    //edit: and this just goes to show how it pays to read before posting -but my main point stands (which, in hindsight, it's certainly been made by someone else already. Ok, I'll just get up and leave -thanks! ), below is the video I mentioned earlier:


    Quote Originally Posted by bevcraw View Post
    Check out the Tim Pettitt video on the front page. In it he talks about how HP analyzed and focused on the top 20% of apps used by webOS users in deciding what should be available first for the TouchPad.

    Lengthy TouchPad demo reveals reborn gesture, keyboard keys, and more [video] | PreCentral.net | The #1 Palm Pre and Pixi Community
    Last edited by Carioca_FL; 06/15/2011 at 11:14 PM.
  10. #70  
    Right now discussion reminds me of comparison between Russian and USA plane. The Russian plane has excellent engine and body, however, when you look into avionics, there is different story. So, apps for the device is the same as avionics for the plane. Everything could be top of the line, but without electronics it will not fly well. It does not matter how good in multitasking webOS is, if there nothing to multitask with.

    Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by bevcraw View Post
    Check out the Tim Pettitt video on the front page. In it he talks about how HP analyzed and focused on the top 20% of apps used by webOS users in deciding what should be available first for the TouchPad.

    Lengthy TouchPad demo reveals reborn gesture, keyboard keys, and more [video] | PreCentral.net | The #1 Palm Pre and Pixi Community
    So Glyder and Sparkle falls in that top 20%? 0_o
  12. #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by barkerja View Post
    So Glyder and Sparkle falls in that top 20%? 0_o
    Those are must-show apps. I know a couple of folks that are waiting for the touchpad because of Glyder, so go figure...

    -- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
    Newness Developments apps:

  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    And, of course, since it really was a troll thread, the naysayers came out in force and have informed us that the TouchPad is not going to sell.

    Yet, they keep coming back. I think deep down inside, they're a little concerned that it just might.
    Sorry, I have to LOL @ this.

    I hope they sell a ton of them and put some pressure on the others. I'm not married to any brand, but i'm just telling it like I see it.

    They have a serious problem with a lack of applications. Is that something that can be remedied? Surely. However, I've not been the least bit impressed with how HP is handling the hardware side of this, and i hope it changes.

    I owned the original Pre and bought into what I felt was the best OS out there conceptually, however, Palm couldn't make it happen. When HP picked up the torch, I felt that this was a step in the same direction, albeit with more resources.

    HP has little to no experience and a bad track record of absorbing brands and products and making a go of it. I see history repeating itself again.

    It's playing it self out, and I'm afraid we'll see sales come in below expectations, and after a period of time this WebOS experiment will fall by the wayside, and we'll have HP producing Win Phone devices.

    That's what I DONT want to see happen. I'd love to come back, but HP has given me zero reason to at this point, and their strategy going forward seems to follow the same pattern.
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by Crackbone View Post
    Sorry, I have to LOL @ this.

    I hope they sell a ton of them and put some pressure on the others. I'm not married to any brand, but i'm just telling it like I see it.

    They have a serious problem with a lack of applications. Is that something that can be remedied? Surely. However, I've not been the least bit impressed with how HP is handling the hardware side of this, and i hope it changes.

    I owned the original Pre and bought into what I felt was the best OS out there conceptually, however, Palm couldn't make it happen. When HP picked up the torch, I felt that this was a step in the same direction, albeit with more resources.

    HP has little to no experience and a bad track record of absorbing brands and products and making a go of it. I see history repeating itself again.

    It's playing it self out, and I'm afraid we'll see sales come in below expectations, and after a period of time this WebOS experiment will fall by the wayside, and we'll have HP producing Win Phone devices.

    That's what I DONT want to see happen. I'd love to come back, but HP has given me zero reason to at this point, and their strategy going forward seems to follow the same pattern.

    Like I ask most cynics on here, if you were HP's CEO tomorrow, what would you do differently? Name 5 (realistic) things you'd do to make WebOS a powerhouse OS and competitor that would make you want to "come back."
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by Beanis View Post
    Like I ask most cynics on here, if you were HP's CEO tomorrow, what would you do differently? Name 5 (realistic) things you'd do to make WebOS a powerhouse OS and competitor that would make you want to "come back."
    1. Spend more time and effort courting developers. This is a big one. I feel that HP(as was Palm) is way behind in this area, they need more.

    2. Better refinement of the OS. It's still slow as dirt compared to the others. I've seen recent demonstrations, and it still falls short and clunky (same experience I had.)

    3. Build an ecosystem on your strengths. Build more cloud services, get me entrenched, and give me reasons to invest not only in a tablet, but a phone.

    4. Give more compelling reasons to buy into the hardware. I can spend $499 or less many different places, and get similar hardware. Give me more incentives, more pack ins, something to keep your price point, but give me more value.

    That's 4 off of the top of my head without much thought.

    Lastly, this is more of a culture criticism but I've been burned with promises from Palm, and HP is following the same pattern. Show me hardware that's ready to buy when it's ready to be sold. Stop stringing me along with talk, action is what I need. Act like you care about your customers and that you are doing right by the platform, by your supporters.

    Make me feel that if I drop $499 today, that i'm not going to be left out to dry tomorrow. Make me feel like WebOS has some sort of a future through action. Stop acting like some corporate behemoth from yesteryear. Give me quick updates, quick fixes, exciting enhancements and don't drag your feet releasing to me.

    HP/Palm promises have been broken many times already. Show me I can trust what you are saying through action.
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by Beanis View Post
    Like I ask most cynics on here, if you were HP's CEO tomorrow, what would you do differently? Name 5 (realistic) things you'd do to make WebOS a powerhouse OS and competitor that would make you want to "come back."
    1. Focus on carrier relationships. Eat with them, woo them, threaten, whatever. Palm supposedly bought Handspring not so much for their Treo's, but for their existing relationships with carriers.
    2. Return to the core Palm value of PIM. Buy a 12 year old Palm Pilot, and make sure your new devices can match or exceed every feature in the calendar, contacts, notes, etc. Add in the new ideas (gps locations/addresses, synergy, etc.)
    3. Get devices out the door, even if it is at a loss. Dump the Pre2's, give them away, etc. just to build a base of users.
    4. While cloud is great, include caches/local devices as part of the cloud. Most media usage is NOT cloud - movies, music, etc. are rarely streamed, instead they are copied over from PC's or downloaded. Sync'ing/caching should be an essential part of the OS. Corporate documents sometimes aren't allowed on the cloud, so forget Google Docs. Privacy is important, so media/notes should be filtered/protected.
    5. Attack RIM/Nokia/dumb phones, and ignore Android/iPhone. Steal from the weak, not the strong. For RIM, make sure your business features match theirs, or exceed them. They now own Dataviz (Docs to Go). Make sure you have the best document editing out there. Get video out going for the tablets so they can be used in meetings, for heaven's sake. For Nokia users, keep up with the innovative form factors (Centro was a hit in Europe, and Veer could be).
    KA1
    Visor Deluxe->Visor Prism/Digital Link->Treo 650->Treo 700p->Pre->GSM Unlocked Pre 2 (wifi only)->FrankenPre + Touchpad 32 ->+ Touchpad 4G ATT + ATT Pre3 + 64 White Touchpad... bliss.
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by Crackbone View Post
    1. Spend more time and effort courting developers. This is a big one. I feel that HP(as was Palm) is way behind in this area, they need more.
    To be fair, they claim they are and have been. I guess we'll know in the next 60 days how well they have done, but I can understand not being very vocal about who they are courting and where in the process they are at.

    How would you "court" developers? How would you do it better?

    2. Better refinement of the OS. It's still slow as dirt compared to the others. I've seen recent demonstrations, and it still falls short and clunky (same experience I had.)
    I believe WebOS will always lag behind Android and iOS in this area. That's the price paid for true multi-tasking. That's also why iOS opted to be so negative about multitasking - because it affects the experience and that's priority 1 to them.
    I'm ok with this and I've accepted it. If you aren't, you should just write off WebOS now.

    From the recent videos I've seen, it's smooth and fast enough for me when running one app (which is the only fair comparison).

    3. Build an ecosystem on your strengths. Build more cloud services, get me entrenched, and give me reasons to invest not only in a tablet, but a phone.
    Again, they claim they are doing just this. And again, they are not going to announce it until it's about to come out. Would you do any different?

    4. Give more compelling reasons to buy into the hardware. I can spend $499 or less many different places, and get similar hardware. Give me more incentives, more pack ins, something to keep your price point, but give me more value.
    That's somewhat nit picky, but I'm always for better value. I'm no marketing genius but I do understand why HP is trying to position themselves as "equals" to the iPad as far as consumer value is concerned.

    Lastly, this is more of a culture criticism but I've been burned with promises from Palm, and HP is following the same pattern. Show me hardware that's ready to buy when it's ready to be sold. Stop stringing me along with talk, action is what I need. Act like you care about your customers and that you are doing right by the platform, by your supporters.
    Hey I'm still sporting my launch Pre-. I have complaints too. I'm especially disturbed the the talk of "making things right" nearly 6 months ago. I honestly see no alternative to WebOS for my needs though.

    Make me feel that if I drop $499 today, that i'm not going to be left out to dry tomorrow. Make me feel like WebOS has some sort of a future through action. Stop acting like some corporate behemoth from yesteryear. Give me quick updates, quick fixes, exciting enhancements and don't drag your feet releasing to me.
    Apple doesn't do any of that and they do quite well.
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    #78  
    Here are a few stats about app downloads that I posted a while back. They're pretty interesting.
    App Download Stats

    This is just my own personal experience, for whatever it's worth: I don't know many people in real life who are smartphone junkies. Most people I know don't have smartphones, and out of the ones I do know, they never talk about the awesome apps they have. I've probably downloaded close to 200 apps for my Pre. I currently have around 70 still installed. Of those I use 6 daily, maybe 12 weekly. The rest could disappear and I probably wouldn't realize, but I tell myself I might need them one day so they stay installed.

    Apps are just one of the lowest priorities for me when it comes to what I want out of my phone. To be honest, I just love the cards. Even if the same functions and multi-tasking can be done on ios or android, I just love minimizing to card view and swiping and rearranging cards. I'm not going to give that up just for more Mhz or a particular app or game.
  19. #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by Beanis View Post
    To be fair, they claim they are and have been. I guess we'll know in the next 60 days how well they have done, but I can understand not being very vocal about who they are courting and where in the process they are at.

    How would you "court" developers? How would you do it better?


    I believe WebOS will always lag behind Android and iOS in this area. That's the price paid for true multi-tasking. That's also why iOS opted to be so negative about multitasking - because it affects the experience and that's priority 1 to them.
    I'm ok with this and I've accepted it. If you aren't, you should just write off WebOS now.

    From the recent videos I've seen, it's smooth and fast enough for me when running one app (which is the only fair comparison).



    Again, they claim they are doing just this. And again, they are not going to announce it until it's about to come out. Would you do any different?



    That's somewhat nit picky, but I'm always for better value. I'm no marketing genius but I do understand why HP is trying to position themselves as "equals" to the iPad as far as consumer value is concerned.



    Hey I'm still sporting my launch Pre-. I have complaints too. I'm especially disturbed the the talk of "making things right" nearly 6 months ago. I honestly see no alternative to WebOS for my needs though.


    Apple doesn't do any of that and they do quite well.
    Of course they do. Right now their actions say, expect iOS updates for the two years you are stuck in that contract, etc. That's fair, and I don't sit around worrying that my handset or tablet is going to be software obsolete in 12 months. Or worse yet not supported at all.

    There's a silent pact between Apple and it's customers. I use apple as a comparison as they are closest to HP in their controlling the experience mantra. ( hardware and software ).

    See, the difference between you and I is, while WebOS has some great an unique functionality, I am not going to allow them to walk over me and not reward your core community, regardless of the functionality. Furthermore fool me once shame on them, they won't fool me twice.
  20. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by Crackbone View Post
    1. Spend more time and effort courting developers. This is a big one. I feel that HP(as was Palm) is way behind in this area, they need more.
    Your feeling is totally wrong. They have the best DevRel Team out there. I feel at home with everyone at Palm (definitely far, far away on how other platforms manage their devs).

    What should they do? Pay devs for doing apps? Sorry, that's totally wrong. They must feel the need of developing for webOS, and you can only do that with devices sold.

    webOS is years ahead of the competition (talking about innovation), and that has it's negatives. Look what's happening at the apps market: all the media companies are moving from native to HTML5 for a reason, Microsoft is moving to HTML5 for Windows8, Chrome OS is HTML5.

    But there are tons of "old school" devs that feel that webDev is not "true development", there are also tons of devs that don't know what's webOS.

    Believe me, there are a lot of dev companies out there that don't look around to see what's happening, and they don't see the big picture. They only go to established markets.
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