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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Blank View Post
    I've been wondering for a while what your business experience is, particularly in marketing and dealing with vendors.
    i dont need a business degree to know a $600 none-apple tablet won't sell.

    Motorola has tons of business talents, guess what, sales of their $600 xoom is in the toilet. Even thou that tablet has higher resolution, thinner, more famous OS, bigger battery, more cameras, more apps, SD slot, HDMI.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by MesBoogieBrown View Post
    It's kinda odd that there's so much talk about enterprise and business, tho, because all I am seeing is displays in Wal-Mart and Best Buy and celebrity commercials. I don't think this platform is all things to all people, really. At least, it shouldn't be.
    That's because enterprise customers don't buy these from places that run displays. They sit in their offices and place orders. The "displays" for the enterprise customers are HP's websites and the targeted emails we receive.
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    #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    i dont need a business degree to know a $600 none-apple tablet won't sell.

    Motorola has tons of business talents, guess what, sales of their $600 xoom is in the toilet. Even thou that tablet has higher resolution, thinner, more famous OS, bigger battery, more cameras, more apps, SD slot, HDMI.
    When HP says "Business", what they mean is "an IT department decides on the device and buys them from us". When they say "Enterprise" they mean "a huge IT department buys a LOT of them from us". HP is already at the company selling servers & printers & PCs & software, providing support, maybe even running help desk operations (like where I work). Motorola is not in that position.

    $600 RETAIL means nothing because they'll negotiate pricing differently with each company. Thinness, rear cameras, SD cards, netflix, HDMI mean nothing because the IT department doesn't care about that. They care about security, cost to support, ability to do business tasks, etc.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by ahitz View Post
    When HP says "Business", what they mean is "an IT department decides on the device and buys them from us". When they say "Enterprise" they mean "a huge IT department buys a LOT of them from us". HP is already at the company selling servers & printers & PCs & software, providing support, maybe even running help desk operations (like where I work). Motorola is not in that position.

    $600 RETAIL means nothing because they'll negotiate pricing differently with each company. Thinness, rear cameras, SD cards, netflix, HDMI mean nothing because the IT department doesn't care about that. They care about security, cost to support, ability to do business tasks, etc.
    If all that's true it makes the fact that they have special spots in retail stores that sell to consumers (at no small cost) a bit puzzling.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by ahitz View Post
    When HP says "Business", what they mean is "an IT department decides on the device and buys them from us". When they say "Enterprise" they mean "a huge IT department buys a LOT of them from us". HP is already at the company selling servers & printers & PCs & software, providing support, maybe even running help desk operations (like where I work). Motorola is not in that position.

    $600 RETAIL means nothing because they'll negotiate pricing differently with each company. Thinness, rear cameras, SD cards, netflix, HDMI mean nothing because the IT department doesn't care about that. They care about security, cost to support, ability to do business tasks, etc.
    True, my question is, is HP gonna sell this thing as business product mostly?

    because the high price tag and lesser hardwares gonna doom it at consumer market.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by Beanis View Post
    If all that's true it makes the fact that they have special spots in retail stores that sell to consumers (at no small cost) a bit puzzling.
    I don't understand your comment. Why can't HP sell this product through corporate sales channels to business with obvious mods to the software to be IT friendly; and to the consumer through the retail channel? Why does both have to be mutually exclusive?

    -- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
    Are you trying to hurt me?
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by playboy View Post
    I don't understand your comment. Why can't HP sell this product through corporate sales channels to business with obvious mods to the software to be IT friendly; and to the consumer through the retail channel? Why does both have to be mutually exclusive?

    -- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
    They certainly can do what you suggest. My confusion lies in their messaging being almost entirely aimed at business and enterprise.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    True, my question is, is HP gonna sell this thing as business product mostly?

    because the high price tag and lesser hardwares gonna doom it at consumer market.
    What's so hard to understand about a corporation selling products to consumers & business clients with slight mods to the software for the corporate clients?

    As far as the price of the 32 gig machine is concerned, you're pontificating as though that will be the only TP version available in stores. Granted all signs point to the 32 gig initially being available at retail before the 16 gig but how long before is anyone's guess.

    Unless of course you have inside knowledge. But then if you had inside knowledge I doubt you'd be here spouting off the way that you do. Lets see how the retail end evolves before we make declarative statements all but implying that 32 gig will be the only TP avail in stores & therefore, destined to fail.

    -- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
    Are you trying to hurt me?
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by Beanis View Post
    They certainly can do what you suggest. My confusion lies in their messaging being almost entirely aimed at business and enterprise.
    You mean the messaging being given at an annual event in which HP invites some of their largest corporate clients to discuss the new products HP has for them? Which you're just happening to read about on an fan forum for webOS and not a mainstream news site that consumers are more likely to visit.

    Believe me, the message to their corporate clients is different from what the consumer will see and here. The average consumer doesn't even know that Discovery is taking place, but you do and that's where you're hearing alot of the recent enterprise messaging.

    -- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
    Are you trying to hurt me?
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by Beanis View Post
    I've been wondering that too. It seems that in the last month HP's messaging has been to try and sell the TouchPad as an enterprise business tool (like the slate). With sales reps emailing us for business and bulk sales.

    But their actions in marketing do not match that.
    Well the HP ads you see on TV and kiosks are aimed at consumers. You never see enterprise oriented ads by HP on TV. Maybe in business or IT magazines. They usually market to businesses via local reps. I assume they are really trying the hardest to shore up enterprise support. It's probably their most assured market for success. This way if it's not embraced by the consumer market, it can still be a success. The amount of work they are putting into security is a sure sign that they are going after a market that is still leery about Android and iOS.
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    i dont need a business degree to know a $600 none-apple tablet won't sell.

    Motorola has tons of business talents, guess what, sales of their $600 xoom is in the toilet. Even thou that tablet has higher resolution, thinner, more famous OS, bigger battery, more cameras, more apps, SD slot, HDMI.
    ... and a supremely crappy user experience.

    Seriously, have you used a XOOM? Navigating the current version of Honeycomb is like trying to run Mario down one of Bowser's dungeon hallways while you're drunk and high. Granted, not everyone will agree, but IMO even the hardcore geeks would have to admit that Honeycomb is a giant, plodding piece of widget hell.

    webOS has its shortcomings, but (warning: anecdotal evidence ahead) every one of my friends finds it a joy to use. These are artistic types, mind you, not gadget-heads.

    Spec sheets don't mean anything to consumers. User experience does. TouchPad appears poised to deliver more of what's good about webOS in UI, and less of what's bad. That will translate to respectable, if not stellar, sales to consumers.

    As for Enterprise: HP's just going to flood the market. They're going to force it into success, because they're big enough to do so.
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    #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by Beanis View Post
    They certainly can do what you suggest. My confusion lies in their messaging being almost entirely aimed at business and enterprise.
    HP Discover is aimed at business, so the messages coming out of there are obviously going to be geared toward that.

    Their ad blitz will certainly have a much more consumer-focused message, but they have to play to their strengths. Up against iPad, that strength is clearly more on the business than the consumer side.
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by VCI_Cell View Post
    ... and a supremely crappy user experience.

    Seriously, have you used a XOOM? Navigating the current version of Honeycomb is like trying to run Mario down one of Bowser's dungeon hallways while you're drunk and high. Granted, not everyone will agree, but IMO even the hardcore geeks would have to admit that Honeycomb is a giant, plodding piece of widget hell.

    webOS has its shortcomings, but (warning: anecdotal evidence ahead) every one of my friends finds it a joy to use. These are artistic types, mind you, not gadget-heads.

    Spec sheets don't mean anything to consumers. User experience does. TouchPad appears poised to deliver more of what's good about webOS in UI, and less of what's bad. That will translate to respectable, if not stellar, sales to consumers.

    As for Enterprise: HP's just going to flood the market. They're going to force it into success, because they're big enough to do so.
    wishful thinking. Lets wait and see, I say 20,000 on launch day, 200,000 in first month, 300,000 in two months, 1 million in a year.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by MesBoogieBrown View Post
    I said it before...I'll say it again. I don't see a lot of difference between Honeycomb and what I've seen of the TouchPad. You gotta use a button to jump back to the "desktop" and navigate in both. Notifications look almost identical. They have vertical cards, and we have horizontal cards.
    If you don't see a lot of difference between webOS and Honeycomb, I'm not sure we have enough common ground to even have a discussion. It's akin to saying the moon and sun are the same because they're both spherical.

    But what Honeycomb does have is lots of manufacturers competing and now undercutting on price, plus they have the relative brand recognition of Google and nice Google apps like Movies, Music, Maps, books, etc.
    Android is going to have a leg-up in that regard for the foreseeable future. The Google approach to the market is entirely different, and there's no question that it's fueled explosive growth. The question is whether HP's approach (contained ecosystem, we-own-and-make-everything) will work. They're obviously invested in the future of this OS, and that top-down approach seems to be the one they're going with. If it works half as well as it has for Apple, they're golden.


    We don't have that, and WebOS aint gonna be enough. It hasn't been with any handset on any carrier thus far - even the new ones.
    The Pre2 got no support and has nothing terribly unique going for it. Hard to sell. The Veer's marketing has just started. Pre3 isn't around yet. We have insufficient data to draw a conclusion about the future of webOS on handsets.

    I'd say that we're not going to see widespread adoption of webOS handhelds until HP starts selling consumers on the ecosystem they're building. Till then, these devices are on shelves to keep webOS's marketshare from falling all the way to zero, and for "beta testing."

    And I don't think anyone can "force" a tablet to success in the enterprise right now. Most corporations are still figuring out use cases for them. In special cases like car makers putting their user manual on an iPad...well, they're going to go with an iPad. Again, it's known. We're not.
    This is really short-term thinking. In 2007, PalmOS and WinMo were "known." iOS wasn't. In 2008, iOS was known. Android wasn't.

    The world can change. The future is not the present.

    Could it go either way? Yes. But this isn't a hobby for HP - they're betting their future in large part on webOS. If it fails, it will be a spectacular failure. I don't think HP is that stupid. But then, I tend to look a long way down the road.


    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    wishful thinking. Lets wait and see, I say 20,000 on launch day, 200,000 in first month, 300,000 in two months, 1 million in a year.
    Based on the same rock-solid data, I estimate 40 bajillion in the first ten minutes, with HP beating everyone else with a score of Q to 12.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by VCI_Cell View Post

    Could it go either way? Yes. But this isn't a hobby for HP - they're betting their future in large part on webOS. If it fails, it will be a spectacular failure. I don't think HP is that stupid. But then, I tend to look a long way down the road.
    The way they priced it and designed it, it seems they are betting with their brains on vacation.
    Quote Originally Posted by VCI_Cell View Post
    Based on the same rock-solid data, I estimate 40 bajillion in the first ten minutes, with HP beating everyone else with a score of Q to 12.
    its almost funny. we shall see.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by VCI_Cell View Post
    ... but IMO even the hardcore geeks would have to admit that Honeycomb is a giant, plodding piece of widget hell.
    You have quite the turn of phrase. You may be my favorite poster!
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by VCI_Cell View Post
    ... and a supremely crappy user experience.

    Seriously, have you used a XOOM? Navigating the current version of Honeycomb is like trying to run Mario down one of Bowser's dungeon hallways while you're drunk and high. Granted, not everyone will agree, but IMO even the hardcore geeks would have to admit that Honeycomb is a giant, plodding piece of widget hell.
    I haven't had a chance, but I had heard at least decent things about honeycomb, is it that bad? I would love to use one, but I have found that every BB and Wal-mart I have been to have them on a display where they aren't actually plugged in, so they have no power. And the target here, while they don't have a xoom, have other tablets on display and running...but they put them under a thick plastic covering, so you can't actually use them. I think that part of the reason tablets don't sell, is that retailers seriously have not figured out how to display them. It's a joke.


    Quote Originally Posted by VCI_Cell View Post
    As for Enterprise: HP's just going to flood the market. They're going to force it into success, because they're big enough to do so.
    I hope this isn't the case, because nobody is big enough to do this.
    Blasphemous webOS fan, using Android (with a big phone buying problem)
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    i dont need a business degree to know a $600 none-apple tablet won't sell.

    Motorola has tons of business talents, guess what, sales of their $600 xoom is in the toilet. Even thou that tablet has higher resolution, thinner, more famous OS, bigger battery, more cameras, more apps, SD slot, HDMI.
    You could have said, "I don't have any experience." Note that I wasn't asking about a degree.

    Motorola is not nearly as well-known as HP. For that matter, I've been questioning Motorola's business talents for some time. The old Motorola was losing billions and in danger of bankruptcy before it was split into Motorola Solutions and Motorola Mobility. The latter is the one producing the phones and tablets, and in the last four years has managed to lose $5 billion. It's improved significantly in the last four quarters, but is still on a see-saw hovering around break-even, profiting or losing a few tens of millions in alternating quarters, most recently posting an $81 million loss.

    HP, OTOH, has managed to post profits of $2.2 billion or more in four of the last five quarters. The low point was the quarter where they acquired Palm, and they still posted almost $1.8 billion in profit.

    I have no illusions that the TouchPad is going to dethrone the iPad or that it will break sales records. I expect to see a good start with momentum building provided in large part by HP's willingness to do some of the heavy lifting for key companies early on and improving developer relations as time goes on (I realize they still have a lot to do in this field). Other momentum will be provided by those of us who buy the tablets and evangelize them. A lot of people derided the concept of the iPad until they got a chance to actually play with one, and then they understood the value. That's what we have to do as well.

    Summary: HP can execute. Motorola might be able to execute over the long-term, but isn't nearly as good as HP. Don't count HP out until the product has launched and has had a decent chance on the market.
    If I show up at your door, chances are you did something to bring me there.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by MesBoogieBrown View Post
    WebOS on Touchpad and Honeycomb are NOT THAT DIFFERENT. Forget the phones. Forget the gesture area (well, you kinda have to). Aesthetically and functionally, they are very very similar. I've already detailed why. Consumers are who don't know either are going to think the same.
    I ... I'm flabbergasted, but I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree.

    How does HP own and make everything, tho....the movie store is "powered by" some other company they don't own. The book store is by Amazon. They got way more partnerships than Apple does. That's a lot more people who can screw things up or relationships than can break down.
    You have a point. I was comparing HP's approach to Google's with regard to hardware & software, though: HP makes the hardware and puts their software on it. Android is put on devices built by everyone. There are advantages to each. With regard to third-party content providers, I agree that webOS is basically going to equal Android at first (Netflix, Kindle, etc.). What happens thereafter is yet to be seen. HP has many connections which they will exploit if they can manage to pull off what they're planning.

    Not talking about the future. But just saying that - whatever the circumstances - WebOS has not been enough to make either a Pre, Pixi, Pre Plus, Pixi Plus, Pre 2, or Veer a huge success on any carrier I know of. Zero batting average, dude. 0 for 6 from the field. Goose egg.
    No argument there, but the problem with sweeping statements like this is failing to consider the why.

    Pre hardware was atrocious and OS was basically in beta. Marketing was a complete dumpster fire. Pixi was underpowered and OS was still on the raw side. Pluses suffered from the bad rep of the previous devices and by that time Android was becoming a force and carriers had lost interest (and Palm had run out of a lot of money).

    Pre2 is a wildcard, but it's my guess HP didn't have their marketing approach solidified yet, and threw it on VZW as a stop-gap, probably with very unfavorable terms from VZW. This was very soon after a major acquisition (those tend to completely devastate forward momentum on anything).

    The Veer has been out for a little over 3 weeks, and marketing started a little over a week ago. It's ludicrous to suggest it could be part of this conversation.

    So it remains to be seen whether HP, a very different (and much larger) company than Palm, can succeed. They've already taken some lessons from the past (see current marketing). We'll have to watch the sales and adoption of the new devices closely over the long term to gain any real insight into whether HP's strategy is working.


    Quote Originally Posted by finngirl View Post
    You have quite the turn of phrase. You may be my favorite poster!
    Hey thanks!
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Blank View Post

    I have no illusions that the TouchPad is going to dethrone the iPad or that it will break sales records. I expect to see a good start with momentum building provided in large part by HP's willingness to do some of the heavy lifting for key companies early on and improving developer relations as time goes on (I realize they still have a lot to do in this field). Other momentum will be provided by those of us who buy the tablets and evangelize them. A lot of people derided the concept of the iPad until they got a chance to actually play with one, and then they understood the value. That's what we have to do as well.

    Summary: HP can execute. Motorola might be able to execute over the long-term, but isn't nearly as good as HP. Don't count HP out until the product has launched and has had a decent chance on the market.
    what would be a good start?
    how would HP improve development environment?
    what buyers will evangelize the touchpad?

    lower each unit by $100 will improve all of these. It will improve sales, then more developer will jump in to build the ecosystem, and more users will try it and talked about it.

    what you said are true, but empty, without decent sales, all of those are empty. and I don't believe it will have decent sales if they price it that expensive and refuse to ship 16GB to the retail stores.
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